Comments on Emma’s story

Emma’s story has clearly struck a nerve with TB Joshua supporters. There have been a number of comments that we didn’t publish because of how unpleasant or threatening they were. “How dare you criticise a man of God?”, “The wrath of God will be coming upon you”, etc…

It’s interesting to remember that when Jesus was being arrested, one of his disciples attacked the soldiers with a sword, but Jesus rebuked the disciple and healed the injured soldier. When Jesus was on the cross he said “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do”. Jesus was being murdered, yet he chose to utter words of forgiveness towards his murderers.

Even if Emma’s allegations were made up*, the kind of words coming in the comments are not Christlike, and totally devoid of grace, totally in contrast to how Jesus responded to far more serious offenses.

Any comments that we deem too personal or threatening we will delete. Feel free to ask questions or express doubts, but please do so in a Christlike and gracious way. You also may like to read the points on the “How to defend TB Joshua” post for some ideas on making your comments sound credible.

It’s important for readers to remember that TB Joshua is a man like any other, fallible and capable of corruption and sin. No one except for Emma, TB Joshua and God can say with absolute certainty whether or not these allegations are true. If this is a young woman who really has lost a third of her life to a cult and been sexually abused by a controlling cult leader, you need to be very careful how you respond to her.

* If we had any doubts about the allegations we wouldn’t have published them, but no – we can’t provide you with video evidence as one twitter user asked!

97 thoughts on “Comments on Emma’s story

  1. I’ll comment here in reference to revelation 12:10, here Satan is called, ‘the accuser of the brethren’. When we study another term for Satan used in scripture, the Devil, we discover that it’s derived from a Greek word, ‘diabolos’, which means; ‘ Slanderer ‘ or ‘Accus er.’ The word “accuser” is defined as, “(1) to charge with, or declare to have committed a crime, (2) to find at fault; to blame . . .”
    Scripture teaches us plainly that Satan is a liar . He is the father oflies and there is no truth in him. (John 8:44) People, if they are not careful can become an instrument used by the devil to carry out his work of slandering our brothers and sisters in Christ. For example; in the Old Testament Job’s brethren falsely accused him (4:7-9). The attack on Job came from those who were closest to him, – his own family and dearest friends. In Matthew 12:22-24, the Pharisees falsely accused Jesus of wrongdoing. (Matt. 12:22-24). I strongly believe
    Its a “SIGN OF THE LAST DAYS”
    Among the sins characteristic of the ” last days ” is that some who profess to be followers of Jesus Christ will become “false accusers” ( 2 Timothy 3:3). It was in the commandments of old that we “should not bear false witness” FACT: ON one occasion TBJ WAS Arrested in a cell for 13 days for allegedly dealing in drugs as a petition written to the police stated.HE WAS THEN THE OUERSEER OF SCOAN but after investigations Were conclded the Ndlea wrote officially declaring his innocence. on another occasion TBJ Was invited by the IG OF POLICE IN NIGERIA for questioning on account of the charges levelled against him by chris okotie.a thorough investigation was done and he was declared innocent. So TBJ IS NOT ABOVE THE LAW OF THE LAND AS YOU SUGGEST! So emma, please go to the police with your case&story-thats the appropriate thing to do-if you yourself believe in your story&who knows perhaps TBJ WILL be found guilty this time!

  2. To say that the false ‘prophet’ TB Joshua was thoroughly investigated by police in one of the most corrupt countries in the word (corruption is ranked 134th in the world (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index#Rankings)) is a bit of a stretch. Bet that $10 to $15 million in personal wealth must’ve come in handy?

    Dear Soe, I’ve read many of your posts and kept quiet until now. I feel very, very sorry and grieved for you. Your arguments rarely address the questions posed by fellow posters and it makes you come across as a very angry person. From your posts I can only deduce that you are spending a lot of time and energy blindly defending and idolizing this man – obviously getting very angry and annoyed at others who dare ‘test the spirits’ (1 Jn 4:1). May I lovingly suggest that you do so with us – humbly.

    TBJ is a mere man who is sinful and can do wrong and will continue to sin until the day he dies – that is what the Bible says (1 Jn 1:8). This has been one of the pillars of the Christian faith… we are all sinners and we can be saved and justified from our sinful lives through faith in Jesus Christ of Nazareth alone. The logical conclusion of which is that TBJ may have committed these offenses in the same way you and I can sin against others and God. Until we can agree on this point there is no point to further debate. Can you agree on this logical conclusion? Yes or no.

    Have you not wondered about the consequences if you are wrong? I would be terrified! Have you not considered how unloving and hateful you sound when you accuse young women who claims to have been raped by TBJ of lying and fabricating stories? If you haven’t it may only point to the extent of your own indoctrination which, in turn, only re-emphasizes the cult-like status of SCOAN.

    If you cannot believe the accounts of people on these pages (and the many, many others who told similar stories elsewhere) may I suggest you get the view of a few other respectable Christians (not part of the SCOAN cult) regarding TBJ. A lot of what is said in SCOAN and the practices in this ‘church’ cannot be backed by scripture and many respectable Christian teachers proven to be doctrinally sound have noted this. Are they also ‘lying’ or are they ‘deceived’? Where do you draw the line? My suspicion is that only those friendly to TBJ are true Christians and all the rest are lying deceivers. And that, my friend, is just a further sign that we are dealing with a cult.

    Soe, one final thing… God will find you everywhere in any circumstances. You do not need TBJ or SCOAN to create that environment for you. Jesus truly loves you – even if you were not part of SCOAN. My hope and prayer for you is that you will find peace and joy and rest. May the truth set you free.

  3. “Someone somewhere” thanks for such a long post aimed for me!&i’m sorry if i’ve at anytime sounded angry&hateful by your observation.But i’ve answered that question before If you’ve read all my posts as you said-and the summary of them all is this-We cannot continue in sin and expect Gods grace in us to increase.wheras you seem to believe otherwise ie what you’re suggesting here is that the sovereign power in the name Jesus can be imitated or faked to an even higher degree than the real power in the name and that to me is not only absurd but unthinkable of a CHRISTAIN. And if you don’t still see whats happening in scoan as the grace that comes through divine holiness then i guess nothing else i’ll say will suffice.lol

  4. Dear Soe,

    I repeat… TBJ is a mere man who is sinful and can do wrong and will continue to sin until the day he dies – that is what the Bible says (1 Jn 1:8). This has been one of the pillars of the Christian faith… we are all sinners and we can be saved and justified from our sinful lives through faith in Jesus Christ of Nazareth alone. The logical conclusion of which is that TBJ may have committed these offenses in the same way you and I can sin against others and God. Until we can agree on this point there is no point to further debate. Can we agree on this logical conclusion? Yes or no.

    Have I claimed to have read all your posts? No – I used the word ‘many’. Please get your facts straight and don’t misrepresent me.

    You said: “We cannot continue in sin and expect Gods grace in us to increase.wheras you seem to believe otherwise ie what you’re suggesting here is that the sovereign power in the name Jesus can be imitated or faked to an even higher degree than the real power in the name and that to me is not only absurd but unthinkable of a CHRISTAIN.”

    Where to begin? Not once did I comment about grace or suggested anything about the power that lies in Jesus’ name. You are yet again misrepresenting me. Is this how SCOAN does its business? Misrepresentation and twisting others’ words to suit their own weak arguments? Are you doing the same with the Bible? Stick to topic and answer the question: Yes or no – does TBJ sin?

    Without establishing this basic fact we cannot move on.

    Yes or no.

  5. I said so bcos u regarded TBJ as “sinful” i was only relating that remark to the increasing GRACE of God in his life to show it has no bearing- The works he does speak of the life He Lives. Like i said-its the kind of anointing that is born of DIVINE HOLINESS. When we talk of DIVINE HOLINESS We’re talking about the NATURE of God and in the nature of God there is no SIN…this is why the REAL POWER Of God is absent in many churches today.bcos many pastors preach and teach the word but Lack Gods character-so what we see&hear are many respected ministers dwelling only on the theory&philosophy of the word but without a demonstration of the SPIRIT’S POWER-satan too can quote scripture at least he did it to christ so why shd you now believe i’m from God simply bcos i quote &teach the scriptures? The question i have for you is…

    As a sincere christain
    With all the deliverances&healings&prophecy you’ve witnessed or heard happened in scoan by what authority do you think TB Joshua is doing these things?

    • Hi soe.

      Just a couple of things to make it easier for ppl to folow this thread- when a yes or no questionis posed could you just say either yes, or no.
      And also could we stick to using capital letters for God and lower case for Tbj. It gets confusing when i read “His” and “Him” when you are referring to tbj. Also a bit disturbing.
      thanks

  6. To Soe,

    You say that ‘in the nature of God there is no SIN’. Yes, God is without sin. Only He is holy (as the angels in Revelations rightly sing). Are you attributing these characteristics to TBJ? Is TBJ your god and idol because you believe him to be without sin and therefore holy and divine? Is this why anything said against TBJ is seen as ‘blasphemy’?

    Do you regard TBJ as a god (because he is without sin) or as a man (mortal and fallible). Which is it? Yes, he is a sinner like the rest of us or no, he is not. If he is not a sinner like the rest of us you are in essence attributing characteristics that are only God’s to a man. 1 Jn 1:8 can then not be true and the Bible is therefore unreliable. I’m sure you don’t believe that. So here goes again. Does TBJ sin? Yes or no?

    Furthermore – you said: “so what we see&hear are many respected ministers dwelling only on the theory&philosophy of the word but without a demonstration of the SPIRIT’S POWER-satan too can quote scripture at least he did it to christ so why shd you now believe i’m from God simply bcos i quote &teach the scriptures?”. The Biblical standard for Christianity is love (John 13:34-35, 1 Cor 13). Power does not mean much I’m afraid. I’m not aware of a Scripture that says that God’s power working through a man is a sign that that man has God’s character. If you are saying that these men are not good enough because they make mistakes you are missing the true meaning of grace and the good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. He loves us and uses us despite our imperfections! Paul said that His Grace is enough – when I am weak He is strong.

    I’m happy to answer your question, but I will do so by way of a video… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBpw2oQrvMM. I’ve seen many of these practices at SCOAN.

    Soe – I beg of you – open your eyes to alternative possibilities. Jesus wants you to be free from the yoke of this man. Why do you keep defending him? Why can’t he stand up for himself? God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of love, power and a sound mind. Are you thinking for yourself or are you regurgitating the words of TBJ?

  7. hi Someone.
    Thanks for that youtube link. I think you nailed it there. You also mentioned my single biggest doubt about the SCOAN ministry, the test Jesus gave us – Love. The disciples dont love each other. They love TBJ. Its not a loving environment, its a fierce competition, a rat race to get close to him, to be disciple numero uno.
    Reporting each other is just another way of knocking someone off the lead, while at the same time promoting yourself. Thats why when I was a disciple there, everyone kept mentioning “if you wanna get close to Daddy, if you wanna get close to Daddy.”
    As you can see from these comments, the SCOAN website, the TB Joshua Show, the TBJ “fan” club- SCOAN is all about TB Joshua.

  8. …. You also mentioned my single biggest doubt about the SCOAN ministry, the test Jesus gave us – Love. The disciples dont love each other. They love TBJ. Its not a loving environment, its a fierce competition, a rat race to get close to him, to be disciple numero uno…”

    giles you just shifted from the topic.are we talking about the disciples here or tbj? Tbj you know is an Embodiment OF LOVE in DEEDS and TRUTH not only in words.even the blind can see that and The disciples are there to learn from him.they’re not perfect people and some may not even change but If there’s rivalry amongst the disciples it wldnt be the first time… Even Jesus disciples RIVALED Amongst themselves to assert “who was the GREATEST among them” some even requested that they sit at his right and left in his kingdom ABOVE the others&when Jesus turned down their request the rest of the disciples were INDIGNANT with them”it was so much that christ had to give them a “NEW COMMANDMENT” to love each other.What kind of atmosphere do you think existed among the disciples then? So giles is this the reason you doubt Tbj? Because of His disciples?

    • “By their fruits you shall know them…” what are disciples if they’re not his fruit? Rotten fruit = rotten tree. If Giles’ account of the atmosphere amongst disciples are accurate, it says a lot about their master.

    • Soe – Giles shifted off topic? Really – pot, kettle, black!

      Does TBJ sin? Yes or no?

    • Soe- no its not the only reason why I doubted TBJ. I said its the SINLGE BIGGEST reason, but my decision also took into consideration all the other experiences and obsrvations I wrote about. Please dont mis-represent me as well….

      Back to the question, does he sin? yes or no.

  9. Hi Giles,

    Firstly – thank you for telling your story. I feel very sad about everything that has happened to you and your family (especially your mum’s struggle with her health). I pray that God will heal those wounds over time.

    The Bible says that every matter should be established on the testimony of 2/3 witnesses (Matt 18:16, 1 Tim 5:19). We now have several dozen people testifying about the terrifying deeds of TBJ, but they cannot bring it to the elders – why? Because there is no church structure, no elders, nothing. Yes we hear about rubbish such as junior ‘prophets’ and ‘wise men’ but it seems like TBJ does not believe the values and instruction of the Bible applies to him.

    Yes – it is all about love which is so lacking in the the SCOAN fold – which, more than the accusations point to something other than Jesus Christ. I find it absolutely astounding the kind of language these TBJ disciples use to attack those who dare question this organization. It is so full of aggression and hatred that I struggle to see Christ’s love in their actions – Soe being a case in point. I genuinely feel sorry for them. At the same time I’d like to shake them so they can wake up from zombie land! There are so many excuses for their and TBJ’s actions… ‘that is just how things are done in Africa’ or ‘you don’t understand because …..’ (fill in the blank).

    At least start with; Yes, TBJ is a sinner like the rest of us. Then we know we are not talking about a demigod. The problem supporters of TBJ has with 1 Jn 1:8 is that a ‘yes’ means that he may have committed these offenses and a ‘no’ means they view him as a god. There can be no middle ground. If it is a ‘yes’ they will need to take the allegations made against him seriously and this may lead to the collapse of their whole world. A ‘no’ would mean that TBJ is influenced by none other than Satan himself – the father of lies.

    It is a crucial question… Does TBJ sin?

    God bless!

    • hi Someone
      Its a spiritual blindness of some kind. Like when Paul had those scales fall from his eyes? And how many Christians testimonies have something like “I just didnt get it”, and then suddenly wham! they suddenly understand everything. In the same way, Im pretty sure thats what we’re seeing.
      When SCOAN UK branch split, so many people left saying the same thing – that they just couldnt get how they didnt see it was a cult. My girlfriend at the time saw the sudden change in my life, going from a dedicated TB Joshua supporter to becoming anti-SCOAN (might I add, she had SCOAN pegged right from the start), and she likened it to Paul’s scales being removed from his eyes.
      When I think of how I lived as a disciple, stuff we did, I’m still amazed at how I just didnt spot it because its all so obvious now. When arguing with “blasphemers”, I’d always have 10 answers to say back. Thats what you are seeing on this site. You will never get any TBJ guy to admit TB Joshua has done anything wrong. It just aint gonna happen – but its good that ppl sitting on the fence can see threads like this.
      But as for the disciples and hard-liners themselves- its a sort of spiritual blindness.

      I mean cummon! An entire disciple-family has disowned their own son because of TB Joshua. Its definately a spiritual thing. Thats the kind of power he has over people.

  10. Someone,-sin was not really the problem of man but the “nature of sin in man” the blood of bulls&goats were used to atone for sin centuries before christ but men continually thought evil, and Our God searches the heart.the problem persisted “the nature of sin” that was why christ came so that we may have the Nature of God in us thru the HOLY SPIRIT by being BORN AGAIN. Bcos our natural birth alone leaves us with our sinful nature!

    Let me put it this way
    We are called SONS OF GOD in the bible aren’t we? Then you need no theologian to tell you that just as the son of a goat is a goat&the son of a lion is a lion so therefore the sons of God as it is written are gods… even as christ affirmed. so calling TBJ or giles or me a god isn’t wrong if we are truly SONS OF GOD.perhaps this is beyond the understanding of religious folks… But i hope its clear enuff…

    • The bible also calls us slaves of God, it calls us sheep in his pasture, it calls us a lump of clay being formed in his hands, it calls us (as the church) Christ’s bride. Yes we are called sons of God, but that does not make us gods! It is a picture, just like the other examples I give. You can only stretch the application of a picture so far before it all falls apart. If my sonship makes me a god, then I also have to believe I am literally a dumb bleating sheep.

      So back to the question, does TBJ sin? Are you ever going to answer the question directly? Or is it as Someone Somewhere suggested, you can’t answer because whichever answer you give it will cause your allegiance to TBJ big problems? It’s getting a little tedious now!

    • Soe – You said “Then you need no theologian…”. Trust me – you do. Hindu gurus will have no problem with your statement… Maharishi Mahesh Yogi says “man is divine, the inner man is fully divine. Be still and know you are God. when you know you are God you will begin to live Godhood. Swami Muktananda says “Your God dwells within you as you.”

      What you are saying is completely heretical. Christianity is monotheistic. Further reading here – http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue3.htm and http://www.letusreason.org/pent11.htm

      Back to the question. Does TBJ sin? Yes or No?

      Ian – tedious indeed! But I have hope…

  11. Someone,i asked you a question you haven’t answered and proven it rather you gave a video. …As to your question… as much as i would want to say NO & you would want to hear YES… i’m NOT in position to answer it as i am not GOD.That question shd be directed to God for we don’t have or know what it takes to judge. You make yourselves judges by saying TBJ is a devil&sinner. What will happen when you discover you were wrong all along? why not remain safe by saying you are UNSURE & NOT INTERESTED than judging outrightly? Even A HOLY ANGEL did not dare bring an accusation against the devil to judge him (Jude 1:9) Even if you were right do you think you will be commended by God for doing the Job meant for Him alone?…

  12. Soe…

    I have answered your question with the video. If you cared to watch it you will understand. You still have not answered my question.

    You are contradicting yourself over and over and over again. Firstly you claim ‘so calling TBJ or giles or me a god isn’t wrong if we are truly SONS OF GOD’ and now you claim ‘i’m NOT in position to answer it as i am not GOD’. Are you a god or not?

    Judging, really? Come on! People in glass houses should not throw stones! What have you been doing on this site but point fingers at those who dare relate a negative experience about TBJ/SCOAN? You are using feeble excuses to sidestep the question. Your excuses have no footing in over 2000 years of accepted Christian doctrine – that we all are sinners and fall short of the glory of God and need Jesus Christ (of Nazareth). I don’t have to judge whether anyone is a sinner because the Bible is clear that everyone sins. Ecclesiastes 7:20 says ‘ Indeed, there is no one on earth who is righteous, no one who does what is right and never sins.’ Also read 1 Kings 8:46, 2 Chronicles 6:36, Proverbs 20:9, Romans 3:23; 1 Jn 1:8 and 1 John 1:10.

    Secondly, read 1 Cor 5:12-13 ‘What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.’. We are not to judge those outside the church, but we should judge those on the inside and ‘expel the wicked person from among’ us – the body of Christ. If TBJ wants to be excluded from judgement he has to be excluded from the body of Christ.

    Lastly – you are misrepresenting me again. I have not said that TBJ is “a devil” – but I find it is interesting that you choose jump to that conclusion…

    I guess the question then is not so much whether TBJ sins or not, but rather whether you believe the Bible to be truthful. If the Bible is truthful and there is ‘no one who does what is right and never sins’ then TBJ is a sinner like the rest of us.

    I’m starting to feel like a broken record, but now that we’ve looked at what the Bible says about sin and mankind I’ll come back to my original question: Does TBJ sin? Yes or no.

  13. Giles! Only saw your replies now. I sadly think Soe is another brainwashed disciple who runs to ‘daddy’ just to make sure the posts carry his blessing. The alternative is that Soe is wrapped up in this cult and could be looking for a way out. Either way – there is always hope!

    Regarding what happened in UK branch. It is a pity that Christians in general don’t discern what goes on in churches anymore. Any ‘anointing’ is just accepted, but very few care to discern these things. As soon as we discern (testing it against the word of God) we are accused of judging… and the end result is that anything goes – from the shake and bakers to the preachers coming up with all sorts of ‘new’ extra Biblical ‘revelations’. The logic is just bizarre.

    Unfortunately I have also been deceived (lied to) by this cult (calling it a church is a bit of stretch for me) – I mean the lies?!?!?!? It really is something else! My story is not so spectacular but I’ve seen enough to know what SCOAN is about. It really is amazing grace that we were blind, but can now see. I am so thankful to Jesus for that.

  14. For your information i’m a student of a university for those saying i’m a disciple

    i’ve observed that…We see things not the way THEY are but the way WE are…

    Everything you’re saying here here is based on what you HEAR, SEE &READ nobody is coming forth with a VISION or REVELATION from GOD…about this man,…a great wonder how they can speak with such surety… Bcos this is an issue only God can convince You guyz of…

    Today Africa boasts of greater number of believers than in the western world where Christ labored &taught…they don’t believe him the we do now in Africa…

    Jesus had many disciples, at a time the bible mentioned a “crowd of disciples” at another time he sent 70 out (of the crowd,definitely not all) but how many were left in the end? 11. So a servant is not greater than his master. I’m sure those disciples that left Jesus had sincere reasons to-like giles has now! They wouldn’t tell their families back home they left a good man,the christ,messiah.But its clear that they were unwilling souls starting a RACE they cldn’t end and blaming it on being Deceived.if a man is duped we agree his greed led to it,&if giles claims to be deceived it means he wasn’t led by the spirit.

    • I find it more than a little disturbing your constant comparison between TBJ and Jesus…

      Everything you’re saying here here is based on what you HEAR, SEE &READ nobody is coming forth with a VISION or REVELATION from GOD

      Let me get you straight here, you are saying that visions we see in our mind are more authoritative than what we read in scripture?

      Back to the question you keep on eluding, you don’t need to be God to say whether or not TB Joshua sins (although you appear to believe you are a god, so it should be even easier for you 😉 ). The fact that you are stubbornly refusing to answer the question only makes those reading your replies assume the worst. My assumption based on hints you’ve given is that you believe that TB Joshua is a perfect man (at least since being baptised in the Holy Spirit/anointed as a man of God or whatever) and is incapable of sin. Therefore any accusation of sin, must be a lie. Additionally, because he is anointed as a prophet, his words come straight from the mind of God so need not be questioned. Please correctly me if I am misrepresenting you.

  15. Can’t agree with you more, Ian. The logic is so flawed i don’t even know where to begin. It is funny how Soe does not address any of our points. He/she cannot commit to a straight answer as to whether TBJ sins or not. Neither has it been confirmed whether or not TBJ or Soe are gods or whether the Bible is infallible or not. The heretical views surrounding Christianity has not been addressed nor the many contradictions. He/she has not had the courage to take a stand one way or the other and instead choose to misrepresent what others say.

    Sow, does TBJ sin or not? Yes or no?

  16. I find it more than a little disturbing your constant comparison between TBJ and Jesus…

    the name CHRISTAIN meaning “christlike” is obviously a product of pure comparison of the apostles with their master…obviously too far fetched for you!

    you are saying that visions we see in our mind are more authoritative than what we read in scripture?…

    Ian,wld you define SCRIPTURE for me&tell me how it came? Or do you think God dropped a copy of the Bible from heaven&the prophets&holy men picked it up to make copies of it?… 2.What makes the word authoritative? Becos its Gods word. right? Well that same God still speaks today thru His Holy servants.if a man speaks by the spirit of God-his words become God’s word.

    (although you appearto believe you are a god, so it should be even easier for you…

    I don’t believe i am a god. of the three names i mentioned in the example why single only mine out?-i only said its possible if heaven is present within me. Note the term “IF”

    . My assumption based on hints you’ve given is that you believe that TB Joshua is a perfect man

    perfect people don’t exist on earth TBJ Says so such a belief on my part would conflict with his words. I used the term “closer to perfection” before…

    Yes you’re right as a prophet he hears from God and speaks for him but that doesn’t mean you can’t question his words,since its only doubt that can prepare us for faith. afterall even the very words of God are questioned by unreasonable&wicked men.

    • What I was talking about was not a general comparing of Christians to Christ, of course all Christians should strive to become more Christlike. What I was talking about (and I’m sure you’re well aware of this!) was you constantly putting TBJ on a pedestal as if he is equal to Christ. You may not have said this outright, but this is the clear implication of many things you’ve said and I expect others reading this would agree.

      I believe God speaks today, but I also believe that scripture is complete and authoritative. Yes it has to be interpreted, and no you can’t take everything in it at face value, but if anyone’s “revelation” does not stack up with scripture, then it was not from God – simple as. A modern day prophet is confined by scripture, if they say something that is out of line with scripture, it is a false prophecy.

      Thanks for finally (kind of) answering the questions. Interesting how you’ve chosen to not say directly that TB Joshua is not perfect, but rather that perfect people do not exist. Also interesting you’ve not gone as far as conceding that TB Joshua is capable of sin. So let’s refine this a little more: TB Joshua is not perfect, and is capable of sin? Can we agree on that premise?

      As for the prophet comment, are you saying that you can question a prophet, but only unreasonable and wicked men do?

  17. So far, I have read everything and not commented but what the heck, let’s go for a comment now.

    As I see it, the way that SCOAN differs from other churches (and the teachings of Jesus) is in the area of sin. Firstly, the question of whether TBJ sins – to even suggest that he may not sin directly contradicts the Bible, which makes it very clear that only Jesus is free from sin. “For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”. More of that in a second (and yes, I know it’s been discussed extensively above)

    Secondly, SCOAN seems to view an individual’s sin as something to be used against them at a later date. This is not secret – it’s made obvious in “beware of blasphemers”, where Bisola’s confession is used as evidence against her. Ask yourself one question, supporters of SCOAN – Is this what Jesus would do?

    No.

    Jesus regularly socialised with the “sinners” of the day – prostitutes, tax collectors etc. When they asked for forgiveness for their sins, he forgave them and told them they were clean. Even when people let him down and turned away from him (e.g. Peter denying him), he didn’t try and humiliate them and use their past against them. He forgave Peter and Peter went on to found the early church.

    So, it’s clear. SCOAN is doing something Jesus would never have done. That should concern you a great, great deal.

    My other concern with SCOAN is that its teaching seems to be centred around the Holy Spirit. If you challenge anything to do with SCOAN, the standard answer is “look at the miracles – clearly the power of the Holy Spirit is here”. Ideally, a church should give equal weight to the three aspects of the trinity – Father, Son and Holy Spirit (I know it’s rare to find a church which does cover all three equally). From the little I know of SCOAN, teachings on the Father (creator God, loving, forgiving) and the Son (compassionate, humble) seem to be lacking. Why? Well, I’m just throwing this out there but aren’t they suggesting that TBJ is the stepping right into Jesus’ place? So no need to teach on the Son, as we have the modern-day equivalent right here.

    Why do I think this? First off, the above point that disciples maintain that TBJ does not sin. Second, the myth of the man that he has built up around him (note the parallels between the immaculate conception and TBJ’s 15-month gestation). Third (and this is just a guess), he has adapted his name to place the emphasis on “Joshua”, which is etomylogically related to “Jesus”. Fourth, the frequency with which TBJ’s name is used where most churches would use the name “Jesus” e.g. “TBJ can forgive your sin. TBJ can heal you. TBJ can change your life”. Not “TBJ can pray for you and God can heal you”. Subtle difference.

    Just to illustrate this last point, imagine how this would go down in our British society. An old pastor of ours had a strong healing ministry – he often had specific words for people and saw a lot of healing through prayer. But he always said he would pray for people and God would do the healing. If he’d gone around saying “Matt Frost will heal you!” he would have been kicked out of his job pretty quickly….

    Anyhoo, just my thoughts. Discuss.

    • hi Kate. You forgot the guy who prophesied 100 years ago about TB Joshua, and previous references to TB Joshua being “junior brother to Jesus” 😉
      Seriously, i’m not joking.

  18. Katie, They intended to destroy his ministry, frustrate his efforts and tarnish his image – but the grace of God in the life and ministry of TB Joshua keeps increasing by the day – people keep coming, testimonies keep flowing and God keeps moving. Nothing can stop a vision born of God! Even Seducers also come to destroy T.B. Joshua and his church and are cast out, exorcised, in the name of Jesus Christ!

    I’d advise here dt It is better to speak for than to speak againt especially when you do not understand a thing. If you speak for you will only be following your master Jesus but if you speak aginst , you are at the risk of judgement.

      • The reason why we should fear judgement would be if we did NOT speak out against a perpetrator of abuse having heard first hand evidence from a number of witnesses. Who do you fear judgement from Soe?

    • Sorry, who “intended to destroy his ministry, frustrate his efforts and tarnish his image”? Are we still talking about Bisola? I repeat, Peter denied ever knowing Jesus but he was forgiven. The Lord’s Prayer says we should forgive those who sin against us. On the cross, Jesus said “Father forgive them for they know not what they do”.

      Again, the question – did Jesus try and humiliate people by using their past sin against them?

      Again the answer – No.

    • Oh, and these are the things I speak “for” – Jesus, God, love, forgiveness, compassion

      These are the things I speak “against” – manipulation, church infighting and politics, people claiming they are equal to Jesus, judgment and condemnation.

      What don’t I understand? Have I said anything here that isn’t true?

  19. hi kate, ps – i must comment here on the “TBJ can heal you…”
    Though I agree with you, to be fair, he does say “I am not the healer, I know the healer, his name is Jesus”. However, altough he never attributes anything to himself, the aura surrounding SCOAN- the pictures everywhere, the “fan Club,” the songs, disciples adopting his surname, etc, are all directed at him. Because he’s in total control over SCOAN, he definately has a big part to blame in this.
    Its a clever set up, common to other brainwashed people. You appear humble, while other people promote you. Hitler never praised himself – Goebbels did that for him.
    (for disciples – no im not likening TBJ to Hitler, but I am likening brainwashed Nazis to brainwashed disciples). “Das Fuhrer”….”Daddy”….”Das Fuhrer das Fuherer”…”Daddy has said it”…

    • Its a clever set up, common to other brainwashed people. You appear humble, while other people promote you.

      Wow, hit the nail on the head there – very insightful.

  20. hey giles. Yeah, i was kinda referring to the stuff that his disciples says re t b j healing people but thanks for the clarification! and wow, never knew about the little brother of jesus thing!

  21. it used to be in one of the videos they show you when youre a visitor – someone else said it about him in the “king Kamala” video. that in the spiritual realm he is referred to as that…although it didnt come from the SCOAN people (but from a guy getting delievered), they still showed that little part to visitors until it eventually got edited out. Too controversial I guess.
    Its the same principle. You dont say it, but you film some other guy saying it during a deliverance and make sure visitors get that important sentance. Subtle.

  22. “Oh, and these are the things I speak “for” – Jesus, God, love, forgiveness, compassion”

    hey kate if that’s true then TBJ should be your best friend
    As its a well known FACT that TBJ’S Ministry is committed to:
    · Feeding, educating and providing necessities of life for the poor.
    · Providing educational funds for THOUSANDS OF promising students even beyond university level.
    · Taking care of the elderly.
    · Building schools and classrooms.
    · Giving love and hope to the needy
    . Sponsoring the youths in furthering their football career. Two of whom now play in ss LAZIO One of Italy’s biggest clubs.

    It makes a critical mind even wonder if humanitarian services extend to such level?

    If this is not LOVE tell me what it is?

    T. B. Joshua is one of the few pastors who SERIOUSLY indulges in helping the needy as advocated by our lord Jesus. others just sit on their high horses&expect you to keep giving even when you can hardly feed&yet they say he’s a fraud.
    so who is fooling who now. Jesus was not only AGAINST the BAD;HE was also for the GOOD(doing good). All i see here are people who are want to be against a bad man but are not doing any good better than the bad man. What good have we done better than this alleged deceiver? How have we affected humanity better than he does? How many outside our family depend on us for a living?…i could go on and on… So my straght question goes thus…

    How long will it take you to get behind this man? Have you prayed and asked God about him and He said you should go ahead and criticise him?
    You better ask.

    • It’s not all about the public face! Love is not just doing ministries (and by the way, LOTS of pastors help the needy, even in the UK). Love is treating people as Jesus would treat them.

      From the evidence presented here by ex-disciples, do TBJ’s followers treat other people as Jesus would treat them? The competition, telling tales, using people’s sins against them….

      “How long will it take you to get behind this man? Have you prayed and asked God about him and He said you should go ahead and criticise him?
      You better ask?”

      In answer to your questions – a) a long time b) Yes, I pray about SCOAN a lot as do other people I know c) God has called to to pray that people I care about are released from a manipulative organisation. Not sure why I need to prove myself to you though…..

      And again, am I criticising him? What have I said that isn’t true? The answers you’re giving are only re-enforcing the points I’ve made (e.g. that in SCOAN outward appearances and manifestations are cited as proof of a pure spirit)

      “All i see here are people who are want to be against a bad man but are not doing any good better than the bad man”

      I think I speak for everyone on this site when I say that none of us are being accused of brainwashing and then controlling vulnerable people. So, that is already “doing better than the bad man”

    • Im not being funny or anything soe, but i have a much better idea where scoan funds go than you do. Afterall, i helped spend them.:-)
      if you want to fuel disciple spending sprees on clothes and shoes, be my guest.

  23. …hi kate, ps – i must comment hereon the “TBJ can heal you…”
    Though I agree with you, to be fair, he does say “I am not the healer, I know the healer, his name is Jesus”. However, altough he never attributes anything to himself”…

    …Thanks for being fair regarding this… This is making it twice you’re crorrecting an obvious misrepresentation of tb joshua though you’re nt on his side. I’ve also heard some of these praises & i believe they would mean much if he laid emphasis on them but he doesn’t. Even when his name is written on scoan programmes its Just T.B Joshua nt “prophet” he doesn’t hv the “thing” for titles he believes our work should speak for us not we introducing ourselves.

    • I’ve also heard some of these praises & i believe they would mean much if he laid emphasis on them but he doesn’t

      Ah, but didn’t you read what Giles said. This was featured in several official SCOAN videos. Ones shown to all visitors. How is that not putting emphasis on them?

      Do you realise the seriousness of claiming TBJ is the brother of Jesus? It’s just a slightly more obscure way of saying that he’s the son of God. If someone said this, they should have immediately and firmly been corrected, certainly not had it recorded to promote TBJ! Can you seriously tell us that this incident doesn’t cause you any concern?

  24. Are we still talking about Bisola? I repeat,Peter denied ever knowing Jesus but he was forgiven. The Lord’s Prayer says we should forgive those who sin against us.

    Its true…Peter denied ever knowing Jesus but he never lied against & sold out his master for money…

    …but there was one who did…

    …And talking about forgiveness…come on!

    Was JUDAS ISCARIOT the betrayer forgiven?-No, he died a horrible and cursed death. JESUS said Judas was a devil& this was the same Jesus who drove out devils having a devil as a disciple- Its a pity we still have people like judas today even amongst tbj’s disciples-if their stories were true why did they sell a copy for $40 ? We are told not to sell the truth” “but for the love of money” they did. they were sponsored by Ladi peters, yet they sold the videos-to what end? PROFIT!

    Talking about forgivenes again, At Least peter was there when christ said we shld forgive, why did he not forgive ananias&His wife for lying? They died even b4 they cld beg for mercy. JUST LYING you may say but the Lord hates a Lying tongue.

    Even now if bisola were to return to scoan to beg for forgiveness (which will be making it the 6th time) i’m pretty sure the tbj wld forgive for he preaches Love and forgiveness!

    • Quickly as I have little time.
      “JESUS said Judas was a devil”… Scripture?
      “this was the same Jesus who drove out devils having a devil as a disciple”… Scripture?
      Its a pity we still have people like judas today even amongst tbj’s disciples… Yes again you say TBJ = Jesus.
      JUST LYING you may say but the Lord hates a Lying tongue. – God hates all sin. Why differentiate?

      You are a sinner as everyone else and God hates your sin, but sent Jesus to atone for your wrongs. I suggest you stop focussing on TBJ and more on Jesus.

    • If we’re equating someone who spoke out about being abused with Judas, then I really don’t think I can continue this conversation.

      Stop focussing on TBJ and more on Jesus? Only if everyone else does too!

  25. To Soe (Special Operations Executive)

    For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Matthew 16:26-27 KJV

  26. Hi Giles and Someone Somewhere,
    Regarding your comments on the UK Branch, I would advise you to get your facts straight. It was by no means a church split; actually only a small number of people left and now the church has grown 6 times bigger and awesome miracles of deliverance and healing are taking place there every week (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0XnfKNlcSg&feature=related). You would think that if this ministry was not of God that the church might have fallen apart or shrunk, but on the contrary, it has grown beyond expectations.

    Now of course I know that you can’t judge something just by the size and growth. After all, as God can call many to believe, satan can also cause many to be awfully deceived but I think we have to look at everything as a whole and in context. If TB Joshua was not of God, you would think that by now, the ministry would have dwindled and depreciated, if he is (as this site is saying) a serial rapist, cult leader, deceiver, manipulator, brain-washer etc (not just a Christian who falls at times and has weaknesses, as we all do) then how is it possible for God to keep blessing him? As the Bible says, how can a man continue in sin and expect the grace of God to abound? And yet since its inception, the SCOAN has kept on growing, the testimonies keep on coming in, and thousands keep on speaking of lives changed and their relationship with God being strengthened. We are not talking of a few occasional testimonies here. This is scores of testimonies every week spoken live on Emmanuel TV of healing (with documented evidence), marriage reconciliations, deliverance from demon-possession, breakthrough in business and education, etc. Our God is a holy and righteous God. Would He allow a twisted, pervert and basically a monster (as this site seems to claim tbj to be) to be used by Him? And if we say that all of this is not of God but rather the devil, what explanation can we give to all the testimonies? If it is not demons speaking out when people are being delivered, what is it? Can satan cast out satan? (Luke 11:15-20) Is it just a huge farce and have the scoan paid thousands to act for them? I think not. If that was the case, it would have been exposed a long time ago. Is it satan that is giving barren couples the ability to conceive, causing ulcers to dry up and cover over, transforming blood-thirsty armed robbers to repentant, docile, humble guys, causing prostitutes to repent and turn their lives around, bringing enstranged marriages back together, etc. or is it the power of God? If it is satan, then my God what is his business doing all that!? I thought he was all out to steal, kill and destroy, to twist and deceive and manipulate. Do you think people just decide to fall at their own will and writhe and kick (and basically embarrass themselves) and scream when the anointing water is sprayed on them? Do you think they just decide to change their voice and start screaming things like “She’s mine” and “I’m not going anywhere!” On the contrary, when such people are asked their experiences afterwards, they say that they don’t remember all the manifestation (as it was the evil spirit within them that was manifesting) all they remember is falling over, something coming out of them and then rising up feeling relieved, light and free (events like this are happening every week at the scoan hq and also at each of the scoan’s branches, in london, athens, accra and cape town).

    • Yes yes, church growing etc. All brought to you by the tb joshua show.
      Radicalised is one of the disciples.

      Not a church split? are you kidding me? I really did laugh out loud.dont know what the church is like now but when i decided to leave loads of others did too.

      • Hi Giles,

        Actually for your info, not even up to 20 people left, please try and get the facts straight. Also, since then, the church has really grown and been blessed, especially in terms of deliverances and healings. People are coming now from european countries to the london branch as it is easier to get to than Lagos.

    • To raadicalised.
      Everyone who runs foul of tb joshua gets treated like scum. They even disowned their own family and refuse to talk to them. I dont care about prophecies and demons. Explain that one.

      And while we’re at it, we might as well ask you guys too-does tb joshua sin?

      Yes or no.

      • “if its not from God…it would have dwindled and deprecitated”

        ….Islam started out with just one guy and it has grown into a major religion.
        Not a great arguement is it.

      • Hi Giles,

        Sure the answer is yes. The Bible says it, that no one is righteous, not even one (Romans 3:10,23). But someone who has weaknesses as we all do as human beings, and asks God for forgiveness and help is very different from an unrepentant, merciless, deceiving hypocrite.

  27. Some of you have mentioned fruit, quoting the disciples as fruit of their mentor, tbj. What can you say then about the five wise men? Each of them have been trained and mentored by tbj before becoming what they are today. In case you haven’t seen, every week (both in the sunday and monday live services), they are being used in the areas of healing, deliverance and prophecy in the same manner that we see tbj operating. Just watch for a couple of hours on sunday or monday evening and you will immediately see what i am referring to. This is a live programme, it is therefore, not something that can be cleverly manipulated or edited. Many come for the first time and receive revelations about their lives, which they could easily deny if they were not true, and yet each and every prophecy is confirmed to be true by the individuals concerned. We have to remember here that many that come to the scoan are sceptics and fault-finders, or those just seeking to hear the truth from God about its authenticity, many also come who are very well educated and very successful in their fields (not just those who are so desperate to receive a solution to their problems that they don;t mind the source).

    • Watch Chris Angel. He’ll do the same thing.

      Look, whichever disciple you are, this is all old ground. scroll up and you can read whats been said about the source of the power.

  28. Ok, if we are saying (as some seem to suggest on this site) that the works happening in the scoan are of God (albeit coming through a faulty and incredibly sinful vessel) then i have a question. Jesus said: And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.” (Mark 16:17-18)
    This is a promise for all true believers. Why then are not more believers seeing demons being driven out people getting healed, etc? Why is it that you or I are not seeing people get delivered, demons being cast out and people getting healed when we lay our hands on them? (of course, I don’t know you and I could be quite wrong here, you could be seeing such things happening in your own life) After all, are we not believers? [I am not saying here that there is not healing and deliverance taking place through many authentic and awesome ministries and ministers of God today – there is!]
    OK, another question, if the miracles happening in the scoan are of God, why would God to choose to use a chronic, unrepentant, manipulative, deceiver and sinner to do His works rather than you or I? You would think that the person God would use would be someone who is has a close relationship with Him and is striving towards holiness (John 14:23,1 John 2:3-6). Do you not think that Jesus is looking for more devotion, dedication and commitment from us all as believers? (Luke 9:57-62)
    If TBJ was acting on his own and not on instructions from God, do you not think by now we would have heard of many cases akin to the seven sons of sceva, who cast out demons because they saw others doing it, not that they really knew Jesus and had a personal relationship with Him (Acts 19:13-16)?
    People can choose to say x,y,z about TB Joshua but it cannot be denied that things happen when he prays (positive godly things, not negative things). If God has committed Himself to him, we have to ask why?

    • No bad things happening when tb joshua prays? my mother and her friend both had cancer and visited scoan. On the plane back the friends condition deteriorated. She did not live the week. Soon after tbj prayed for and prophecied over my mother, her cancer wentto herliver and she was dead within six months.during the last week we tried again and again to get in touch with scoanonly to have them hang up on us repeatedly. After my mom died i was talking to tbj and he asked about my mom. I told him she had died, and he also hung up.

      Months later, when SCOAN UK were going through their church split, I phoned them up from Afghan when I had some time and asked them their side. It was a waste of time – each time I asked or said something the disciple I was speaking to was whispering to the others who were giving their input, then she’d say she didnt get what I was saying cos the line was bad. They suddenly made it very easy to get hold of “Daddy”. It was in their interests, to rally SCOAN-supporters to the colour.

      I got loads of emails from Lagos, UK and America all urging me to call him, that they’re waiting for my call, the lines are open, etc.

      Next time I was by the internet, I replied. Why am I suddenly so important? I asked. You lot rejected me, its been impossible to get in touch with TB Joshua. I’ve been quietly going to scoan uk for 3 years, minding my own business and when we did need SCOAN, you lot distanced yourselves from my mother as she was dying. Now suddenly you need supporters, TBJ is so desperate to speak to me. You open the phone lines, begging me to call.

      I reminded them where I was and what I was doing and had had a particularly gruesome tour and in a nutshell, please stop bugging me, I have more important things on my mind. I still got emails filled with quotable quotes.

      Although I was on the fence and determined to keep as unbiased when I heard about Emma’s story, in the end it was the disciples who pushed me away from them. SCOAN dont care about you. They care about TB Joshua. They dont care about what you’re going through in your private life.

      They knew I was in a war – not once did they ask about my welfare. Not once.

      I would rather be in a small church of sinners with no power but full of love, than a big church full of power..but no love.

    • Youre also contradicting yourself and confusing me. You asked why we are not seeing miracles from other believers, then a few lines down ypu are saying that there are plenty of other ppl out there doing stuff like that. Not sure what you are trying to say.

    • Hi Radicalised,

      I have a question for you: If 1000 people attend a service for healing and 50 of them give a testimony on TV, then all that we know is that 5% of people that were praying for responded positively during the service. What about the other 950? Also was the recovery lasting for those 50 people.

      I’ve been to TBJ’s crusades, many more don’t get healed than do.

      How many people have been prayed for healing from HIV during the last 16 years at SCOAN? I’d estimate at least 15,000. How many of those people have returned with negative test results, perhaps 200, maybe a few more. What about the rest? Even those 200 are a bit dubious considering how rife corruption is in Nigeria.

      How many people have been healed from HIV from outside Nigeria? ZERO. None. Nada. Is the Nigeria strain of HIV easier to heal than others……..

      I could go on, just wanted to put a bit of perspective on all the miracles at SCOAN.

      The main issues which no follower of TBJ can answer to are:
      1. There is no accountability structure
      2. TBJ is idolised
      3. There are several credible accusations against TBJ, which have not been dealt with by SCOAN in a godly, biblical way.

      Also you say, “If God has committed Himself to him, we have to ask why?” This strikes at the heart of the key theological error that followers of SCOAN fall into: Miracles do not equate to holiness or character. Please see Matthew 722 and 1 Corinthians 13:1-3.

  29. I would advise all those who stumble across this site who are seeking the truth, to ask God with an open heart to give them a revelation. When it comes to things of God and the works of God, we cannot try and understand it with our natural minds (1 cor 1:20-25).

    And if the authors of this site are truly truly concerned and convinced that such is happening in the scoan, why not go there, see for yourself and ask God to reveal the truth to you rather than just gossiping about it all on this site. After all, if all that you are saying is true, it is a very very serious thing. If you know people that are still part of the ministry (and you are genuinely worried about them), why not contact them directly and ask their own personal experiences?

    As you have said, only God knows the absolute truth regarding all that has been said, so let us ask God to speak to us.

    Let us not be too hasty to deal out judgement and condemnation and let us remember what Gamaliel said in Acts 5:33-39.

    • Hi Radicalised (interesting choice of name by the way – who radicalised you?)
      Four lengthy comments posted in 5 minutes in the middle of the night would indicate that you feel very strongly about this.

      Please do not make the assumption of me that I do not pray and ask God. Please do not make the assumption of me that I have not been to Lagos. Please do not call the comments that put on this site gossip. These are subjects far to important to be dismissed and belittled in such a way.

      You say that only God knows the absolute truth about all that has been said but that is not the case. If I say that for many years I have had no contact from a family member who is part of SCOAN even though I have tried to keep in touch them. That is a true statement it is known both by me and by God and by the person involved. If a former disciple says that they were abused while they were in SCOAN and it is implied that they do not know the truth of what they are saying that is a way of perpetuating the abuse. Do you want to be part of that?

      Can I ask you a question Radicalised? How free are you to think for yourself and ask questions? How free are you if TB Joshua were not around to experience the love of God for yourself and power of the death and resurrection of Jesus?

      • Agree with everything you’ve said…and you are very brave for sharing your experiences with us.

      • Hi, just to answer your question, if I have been ‘Radicalised’ it is by Jesus Christ and no one else, who has called us to live uncompromising and devoted lives, as Christians.

  30. “This is a LIVE programme, it is therefore, not something that can be cleverly manipulated or edited”

    Do you think people just decide to fall at their own will and writhe and kick (and basically embarrass themselves) and scream when the anointing water is sprayed on them? Do you think they just decide to change their voice and start screaming things like “She’s mine” and “I’m not going anywhere!

    Is it just a huge farce and have the scoan paid thousands(of international worshippers&notable personalities) to ACT for them?

    Many come for the first time and receive revelations about their lives, which they could easily deny if they were not true

    VERY VERY STRONG POINTS…!

    Couldn’t have put it better!…its a wonder to me just how such GREAT restoration of lives&families can be attributed to satan!

  31. I think I speak for everyone on this site when I say that none of us are being accused of brainwashing and then controlling vulnerable people.

    when you talk of “BRAINWASHING” I Want you to explain if there are no limits to it and just to what extent people can be brainwashed. how can “brainwashing” make T.B. Joshua is the most recognised and sought out Pastor in Nigeria and indeed, the whole of Africa?.
    How can brainwashing attract a growing influx of the ELITES(presidents,governors,ministers kings etc) of our day? Whose stand religiously before now were not known?or unclear? There’s only so far you can stretch a picture before it all falls apart.
    The problem is that satan wants the world to lose faith in such a tangible thing as the anointing in scoan. Cos that is his only trump card! as all his agents he sends to scoan are delivered!

    • King Saul went to see a fortune teller. So yes – perfectly possible for these ‘leaders’ to be brainwashed.

      Where is the Bible is the ‘anointing’ tangible?

    • Soe, I think you grossly underestimate the power of brainwashing. Are you saying that the sheer numbers of people indicate they cant ALL be deceived? Here are some examples from history of mass-brainwashing.

      Hitler brainwashed an entire country – millions of Germans – into war with England, France, America and Russia, at the same time.
      The muslim world swears that the Holocaust never happened.
      Muhammed had so many followers, its now a major religion.
      President Bush (let this be the last time that name is mentioned, lol) lied to the world about Saddam’s WMDs. Millions believed him.

      The point? Having millions of followers doesnt really conclude much about being from God or not.

  32. I said it b4 dt Speaking against what you DON’T UNDERSTAND ‘ll only put you at the risk of judgement.. T B Joshua is much like the prophets of old(strange) they were very different, as was Jesus,they did not follow the norm of the day, that why they were rejected, when Jesus performed miracles they called him a devil also, and if you know your bible well enough history has a way of repeating it’s self,from what I’ve seen personally, he one of the most real men of God I’ve ever seen. We have problem judging people when they’re different form us. Jesus did tell us that in the last days, that many would come as false prophets even with power to do miracles. but did he not also say that they would do greater works? The greater works was promised to believers.well kate,giles&someone where are the greater works Jesus promised if not what we see in scoan 2day.I’m a man who loves controversy,why?because Jesus was very controversial, thats why they killed him, because he did not agree with the religious right. Our thinking in the church is far to the right, that we miss God everytime he wants to bless us.Our mindset must change in order to receive his promises.lol

    • “I said it b4 dt Speaking against what you DON’T UNDERSTAND ‘ll only put you at the risk of judgement.” Give me scripture for that.

      “T B Joshua is much like the prophets of old(strange) they were very different,” Who said so? TBJ himself or his disciples?

      “The greater works was promised to believers.well kate,giles&someone where are the greater works Jesus promised if not what we see in scoan 2day”. Have seen many SCOAN videos and have not seen anything greater than Jesus. In fact – most of it is rip offs of other religions – i.e. Kundalini in Hinduism.

  33. Has anyone ever read about this guy ? Anton Mesmer. http://www.anton-mesmer.com/index.htm

    Here is a link that tells that he also used bottles of water. http://www.anton-mesmer.com/hypnosis.htm for healing. The same behaviour described there as you see in the church. What are the hallmarks of the Holy Spirit ? Anyone ? Can you dispense Him in a bottle over and over again at your demand and screaming In Jesus Name ? Doesn’t the Holy Spirit need more respect ? Does the Holy Spirit not do the commands of God and Jesus ? Or can you just invoke Him at anytime at your will and demand ? Any scripture to back this up that when God expresses Himself that He does that in the same manner over and over again ? I can’t find any place in the Bible where God does exactly the same thing again and again. It is always something different and in a different format.

    • Hi Shish! Very happy you brought this up. I’ve known about Mr Mesner for a while, but were not aware of the stuff he’s done with water. Sounds and looks very familiar to Mr SCOAN. Seems like he has access to the internet…

      What are the hallmarks of the Holy Spirit ? Anyone ? Me, me! 🙂

      Galatians 5:22-23
      Amplified Bible (AMP)
      22But the fruit of the [Holy] Spirit [the work which His presence within accomplishes] is love, joy (gladness), peace, patience (an even temper, forbearance), kindness, goodness (benevolence), faithfulness,23Gentleness (meekness, humility), self-control (self-restraint, continence). Against such things there is no law [[f]that can bring a charge].

      I can’t see much of that in the absolutely degrading way in which people are ‘delivered’ & delivered… I just see one humiliating incident after another… the bed wetters, the nice close up shots of people vomiting (again Mr Mesner)… an endless list. God has no reason to humiliate us as Jesus has already carried all our shame.

  34. Now madeline,i believe you! I just want u 2 know dt every organisation is run by a certain set of rules the leader deems fit for it- ranging 4rm schools,churches&financial institutions now according to you

    …for many years I have had no contact from a family member who is part of SCOAN even though I have tried to keep in touch them.

    I don’t doubt you cos he/she is obviously a disciple pls correct me if i’m wrong.

    Now this obviously does not go dwn well with u.bt look at it dis way: this might just be SCOAN s way of keeping the disciples focused i mean keeping their goal,vision&mission in the forefront of their minds-now i don’t think you shld have a problem with that if you really love him/her and respect his/her descision. take a cue from (luke 9:62&luke 14:25-the cost of being a disciple) i stated before that discipleship is a deeper committment &shd be treated as such.lets go for a case study now: wiseman harry spoke on emmanuel tv once how his parents rejected him at first for being a disciple,he didnt fret or asked to go visit. but 2day they’re proud of him&their opinion has changed as he has risen to a height no one in his family ever has .On the other hand, Giles today(becoming a disciple almost at the same time with wisemanHarry according to him) is an example of the result of several family visits-his initial vision gone&forgotten”he put his hand on the plough and looked back” luke 9:62. Madeline,i know its not easy but this family member of yours is an adult&has chosen his/her path.the best you can do now is to respect his/her descision& continually pray for him/her to succeed there! Peace!

    • Hi Soe.
      Again, let me correct you on me leaving – I took 2 weeks leave to see my family. It was not my decision to leave SCOAN. All my belongings and valuables were left there, and have not seen them again. The return ticket to Lagos was wasted. I was waiting months to get any response before it was clear they just didnt want me there. Someone later explained that by me wanting to see my family I was showing that I “was not serious about God”. The least they could have done was email me straight away saying dont bother coming back, instead of keeping me waiting month after month. YOu can read all this in older posts.

      Soe, this mis-representation is getting annoying. You need to start switching on.

      • I have no doubt there are disciples who want to visit their families. Some whole heartedly agree with this policy, others I knew about didnt, but were scared they’d never be allowed back and end up like me. So they stayed.
        My friend’s family have been forbidden to speak to their son who also left, but I have a feeling that some of them secretly would like to get in touch. But they know that as soon as they do, they’d be out of SCOAN.
        This is how SCOAN uses fear to control disciples – fear of being cast out into the non-SCOAN world.

  35. Hi Shish, do you not think that when paul prayed over the handkerchiefs that it was not just one but rather many handkerchiefs that went out?

  36. Greetings Radicalised in the Mighty Name of Jesus Christ,

    What does scripture say here exactly here ?

    Acts 19:12

    Handkerchiefs or aprons. Probably the sudaria were a sort of handkerchiefs, which, in travelling, were always carried in the hand, for the convenience of wiping the face; and the simikinthia were either the sashes or girdles that went about the loins. These, borrowed from the apostle, and applied to the bodies of the diseased, became the means, in the hand of God, of their restoration to health.

    The diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them. Here, there is a most evident distinction made between the diseases and the evil spirits: hence they were not one and the same thing.
    The Ethiopic version renders it, “from the extremity”, or “border of his garment”; and the Syriac version, “from the garments which were upon his body”; were brought and put upon the sick; that is, of the clothes which the apostle wore, some of them were taken and carried to sick persons, and used by them: particularly “handkerchiefs” or “aprons”; the former were such as he might use to wipe his face with, and remove sweat, or any filth from the body; and the latter, what he might wear as a mechanic, when working at his trade.

    Was it a common repetitive thing ? I don’t believe so. It was situation in an occasion that Paul did this. It was not done everywhere over Asia. Nor is it mention again in the other books that Paul wrote. Do you see any mention of it ever again ? And did the other disciples it also ? Not that I am aware of. Have you read about Franz Anton Mesmer as I mentioned before ? Here you see that he uses an exact similar way as Paul does, by transferring a sort of “anointing” on different subjects. How do you know it is the Holy Spirit ?
    Franz Anton Mesmer had similar “manifestations” and he seemed to be able to heal people too. For example, by ‘magnetizing’ almost any object, such as a bottle of water. The magnetized objects would then presumably pass on the ‘fluid” to anyone who touched them.

    Quite often patients would cough, spit, feel heat or pain, or be rocked by convulsions lasting several hours – and were carried into adjoining room padded on all sides!! Ermm a sort of demonic manifestation, isn’t it ?
    The patients gasped, twitched, went into trance, or experienced convulsions or catalepsy. Mesmer’s assistants ministered to the more severely afflicted and if necessary brought them into one of the padded crisis rooms.

    Strangely enough people would feel better after wards.

    Why padded crisis rooms ? Were the manifestations that bad ? Very likely. Something that you see in SCOAN. How do you know Radicalised that this is not EXACTLY the same thing that you see in SCOAN. What scientific evidence do you have that it isn’t ? Also when I saw Someone Somewhere writing about Kundalini manifestations, I could also see the same sort of manifestations in that as in Franz Anton Mesmer’s.

    So tell me Radicalised, how do you distinguish who and what is the Holy Spirit at work ? Did you see the Holy Spirit work before you ever entered in SCOAN in others and your own life or in churches. Or did you just read a book about the Holy Spirit and you thought hmmm this is exactly the Holy Spirit as God has given us. How did you test it ? Who was the tester and by what means ? Or your private interpretation of the Bible ? Why is it so that we see mainly only so called demonic manifestations in SCOAN. Why don’t we just see Healing just spontaneous, Or Speaking in Tongues and the Interpretation of Tongues. Or why don’t we see GIFTS of healing taking place. Which means there are several gifts and what do SCOAN disciples think they are ? How many times you see Jesus do deliverance ? Why don’t we see Prophecy as in the bible of foretold warnings and then the people are forewarned with the exact time and place, so people can be saved in the case of a calamity. Like a plane that should be hold back if it is “prophesied” it would crash. This is not happening. They still crash. Only occasionally with some personal warnings. Do you see Jesus do with every sickness, ailments, a cold, etc. etc. there is, a deliverance ? Who says that behind every sickness and ailment there is a demonic entity ? Why always blame the devil for everything, while he might be in Timbuktu doing something else ? If someone is filthy in the house and there are bacteria lurking in every corner, is that also demonic when someone gets an E-coli infection or Diarrhea for example ? Or is that just someone who is not very clean in their habits @ home ? And what about the filthy bus, train and aero plane seats ? Is that also demonic if you catch a virus strain somewhere that floats around in certain times of the year ? You can scream, shout and spray water against a virus strain what you want in Jesus Name, it still will be a virus strain that everyone will catch in due time, some day.

    Another thing that bothers me is that when I see people doing exorcisms or deliverance in SCOAN they have complete discussions with their so called inner demons of the one that is demonized. Which is a thing that should not be done. Why entertain a demonic entity ?

    Where in the bible it says that when you cast out a demon you need to discuss where and how it has happened. Do you see Jesus making any lengthy discussions with demons ? No, He never does and did Paul and Peter do that as well as well all the disciples ? No, they did not. So, I think it is done to sensationalize this whole setup and then video it and then send it all over the world, like see what is happening here ? Why advertise the bottle of water ? If it is the Holy Spirit, then advertise the Holy Spirit not some bottle with water, or a wristband, or watch. I have seen numerous videos that is promoting the bottle with water. Umm about Whom is it actually ? The bottle of water or Jesus who is the giver of the Holy Spirit and Who is anointed ? I thought Jesus was the only One that is Anointed. Where do we learn that we can “dispense” (because that is what it sincerely looks like) the Holy Spirit in this way as a repetitive practice ?

    Acts 1:8 says, Ye shall receive power which means that Jesus and God decides who gets it. People love sensationalism. The more stampede, the more attraction to it. The bigger the church grows. How do we know that there are not some pre-paid parishioners in the SCOAN and do all these antics for this purpose ? How can we verify this ? How come that there are also many not getting healed even if they are sprayed over and over again in the SCOAN. If there is a TOUCH of God, then it is permanent and direct is it not ? Yet it fails in many many occasions. There are on many occasions many excuses given. It might be this, it might be that. There is always a story that can be said.

    Another thing is, usually when the Holy Spirit is taking over it is a whole different thing that happens in a church. Everything that I see is driven by a “human”, with a sort of “tool” in their hand. Do you really think the Holy Spirit can’t do it on His own when needed. Does He need anyone to minister at all times, if it is to God’s Glory ? Not that I am aware of. There is a constant programme in SCOAN and many churches like:

    Entering the church, Singing, Preaching, Praying, Ministering. Do you really think the Holy Spirit does need such a programme to go in this way over and over again, every Sunday ? I think the Holy Spirit is perfectly capable to change this all accordingly as God wants it IF a prophet, pastor, teacher would listen what God really wants. But it is always the same, the same, the same format. Again and again. I see it in many churches, A PROGRAMME. That is really weird in one end. Paul, Peter and other disciples did all kinds of things in random order but in order as the Spirit was leading according I Corinthians 14. This is what christians usually say. As the Spirit leads….. oh really ?

    • Hi Shish.
      I agree with most of what you say – the only thing I must comment on, to be fair is the mention of telling how demon possessed people came to be that way.
      Although I dont see how going into the depth that SCOAN goes into it is very benficial (especially with kids around). And doubly especially when its being recorded on tape and later used as blackmail against you if ever you turn against the ministry. Like Bisola.
      however I do agree that listening to someone’s testimony can be a lesson learnt on whats out there. Like a “threat awareness”

      Disciples keep pointing to the power at SCOAN, but you have raised a good point. Sorcerers do all that stuff too. The “prophecies” about world events are mostly vague and (with the exception of Michael Jackson), and lead nowhere. And when he’s wrong, they’re hushed up. How do you know if its the Holy Spirit? By the fruit – love.

      Where Jesus says love your enemies, SCOAN uses blackmail and slander as a defence, labels people as blasphemers, and divides families. TBJ himself uses physical violence, against women too.

      • Hi Giles,
        Please could you list a few prophecies that were hushed up? I believe there has been many. I’ve heard this fella talk on TV about Deut 18:21 “When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or prove true, that is a word which the Lord has not spoken”

    • Brilliant Shish! Couldn’t have said it any better! I wish they (Soe and Radicalised) had the courage to answer just my one question. Does TBJ sin? They don’t – instead they ramble on – writing lots, but saying precious little.

      • Was like the junior world cup.nigeria was playing i cant remember who, and tbj said nigeria would win. However during the game a contoversial penalty was awarded to the other guys and that was the only goal scored. Soo nigeria lost. Tbj said they were supposed to win but said the penalty should not haave been allowed…this was 2005 or 2006. it sticks out cos my dad had come to visit and i was bigging tbj up and saying just you watch,nigeria will win…
        Another time i can remember was during the jakarta bombing in 2009. He mentione d the date as 16/17th…dont know which date it occured on but what he did get wrong was he said something major would happen at months end. This was july 2009. nothing happened.
        Its like a US terrorist threat level…Orange! Which means something, somewhere will happen…sometime…

      • And of course…
        “The medical report that leads to your death has been cancelled”.

        This is what made my mom refuse chemo during the window where it would have killed the cancer.

  37. To Radicalised,

    Some scriptures for you to investigate about whether it was a practice of repetitive same administration.

    2 Kings 13:14-20 Elisha died from a sickness even though he had a double portion. 1 Timothy 5:23 Paul had Timothy to take wine for medicinal purposes. He didn’t tell him to just believe and have more faith. There is no teaching like this found in the Scripture.

    2 Tim.4:20 ‘Trophemus I left in Miletus sick”. Trophemus was a companion of Paul and Paul left him as he went on. He did not lay hands on him, for whatever reason he was left behind to recuperate, nor did he encourage him to have faith to be healed. Neither did he send an anointed handkerchief.

    Phillipians 2:26,30 Epaphroditus was a devoted servant of the Lord yet he became sick. He got sick in Rome and stayed that way for some time and almost died. We see that prayers were not answered immediately until it was Gods will in his timing, it was not Gods will to heal him at first. No one came to lay hands on him or send him an anointed handkerchief nor was he rebuked for any lack of faith. God had mercy on him. We are no different in needing that mercy.

    Acts 5:15 “They brought the sick out into the streets and laid them on beds and couches, that at least the shadow of Peter passing by might fall (overshadow them) on some of them.” But he never made it a ministry nor do we hear of this becoming a practice by the Apostles. And he did not charge a fee for this either. It wouldn’t surprise me if we see this being revived and promoted today. Once again this involves an apostle and he’s there present with them . It has to do with his presence as an apostle. What causes a shadow to come over another person? The shadow was cast by Peter leaning over them. It does not say they were healed by his shadow, they were wanting him to come near.

    Just to name a few, there are more…. but this will do for you to get the picture.

  38. Hi Giles! Sorry again about your mum. It is really sad that this man can play havoc with people’s lives and have others blindly defend him. I have not heard one disciple or TBJ advocate say they are sorry to hear about your mum. It just points to the lack of love which points to a different spirit (small s) altogether.

    At the very least we’ve already exposed him to be a false prophet if we’re going by the Bible’s definition. His prophecies don’t always come true and does not have much in common to Biblical prophecy which, as Shish rightly pointed out, has purpose. TBJ’s prophecies have much more akin with fortunetelling, witchcraft and sensationalism than the work of the Holy Spirit.

    What really worries me is how incapable these people are to accept that TBJ has problems and is in need of God’s grace just as much as all of us… Instead of accepting this they point to dubious claims of ‘healing’, ‘prophecy’ and ‘deliverance’ (or launch into verbal assaults). It is also obvious that the Bible is being misquoted just to prove a point. Anyone with a smidgen of Biblical knowledge will know that you cannot build a theology around one verse, because cults operate in this way. We need to see the Bible as a whole.

    I know I sound like a broken record, but can the followers (preferably the disciples of TBJ or the man himself) answer my one simple question. Yes or no – does TBJ sin? I’ve asked this question in the 4th post and we’re now on over 80 posts and still we’ve had no straight answer from any TBJ fans. Instead we get these long, cryptic responses that goes nowhere and says little.

  39. Not sure whether or not to believe my eyes. In answer to Giles’ direct question “does TB Joshua Sin”, Radicalised answered:

    Sure the answer is yes. The Bible says it, that no one is righteous, not even one (Romans 3:10,23)

    Hallelujah! A direct answer to a simple question (take note Soe!), seriously – thanks! Right, now we’ve established that point Radicalised, if you’re still in the mood for answering direct questions, here’s another for you: Is it possible that the allegations of the abuse are true?*

    *Note I say “possible?“, not “do you believe them?” or “Is it likely?”.

    • She avoided the other question though, why does everyone who leaves SCOAN get treated like scum?
      All of Jesus’ disciples who betrayed and deserted Him were treated very differently to how TB Joshua’s disciples get treated.

      On another note, thanks for the reply finally! wow, it took you a long time, lol.

      • Hi Giles,

        How do you know what Jesus’ disciples were treated like? Where in the Bible did you read about what happened when they abandoned Jesus?
        And where did you get the info from that disciples that leave are treated like scum??
        I think the way and manner things are gone about really does matter.

  40. We know how jesus was with his disciples because its all recorded….did he spread stories about how they betrayed him or how they were all blasphemers?
    And i know about other ppls stories cos we all keep in touch. Yes radicalised, we do talk about our experiences.

  41. Again about the annointing water. Why did you lie? You told me theres just one kind but i saw on youtube at least two.

    And ian does make a good question too- is it possible?

  42. Regarding comments such as
    “With all the deliverances&healings&prophecy you’ve witnessed or heard happened in scoan by what authority do you think TB Joshua is doing these things?”- Soe
    “And if we say that all of this is not of God but rather the devil, what explanation can we give to all the testimonies? If it is not demons speaking out when people are being delivered, what is it? Can satan cast out satan? (Luke 11:15-20) Is it just a huge farce and have the scoan paid thousands to act for them? I think not. If that was the case, it would have been exposed a long time ago. Is it satan that is giving barren couples the ability to conceive, causing ulcers to dry up and cover over, transforming blood-thirsty armed robbers to repentant, docile, humble guys, causing prostitutes to repent and turn their lives around, bringing enstranged marriages back together, etc. or is it the power of God? If it is satan, then my God what is his business doing all that!? I thought he was all out to steal, kill and destroy, to twist and deceive and manipulate. Do you think people just decide to fall at their own will and writhe and kick (and basically embarrass themselves) and scream when the anointing water is sprayed on them? Do you think they just decide to change their voice and start screaming things like “She’s mine” and “I’m not going anywhere!” On the contrary, when such people are asked their experiences afterwards, they say that they don’t remember all the manifestation (as it was the evil spirit within them that was manifesting) all they remember is falling over, something coming out of them and then rising up feeling relieved, light and free (events like this are happening every week at the scoan hq and also at each of the scoan’s branches, in london, athens, accra and cape town).”-Radicalized

    I would refer you to:

    “For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect – if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time” (Matthew ;24 NIV).

    Seems that would cover the authority question (Soe), and the question about the motivations of Satan (Radicalized).

  43. Not gifts or spectacular powers qualifies a man before God but character. How we love and how we treat people.

    Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles? Matthew.7.22

  44. ooh, this is the post where Soe denies being a disciple! I’ve been trying to find this for a while.

    “For your information i’m a student of a university for those saying i’m a disciple”

    And yet later, he has intimate knowledge of the inner workings of SCOAN. Hence why I questioned it…

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