TB Joshua predicts the London Riots?

In the past week, the UK has experienced violent riots and looting in most of the major cities. As with most major news events, SCOAN has now released a video claiming that TB Joshua predicted the whole thing.

In typical Emmanuel TV fashion, they’re not exactly brief in the telling of this simple story, so to save you time – here is a brief summary of his prediction:

  • There will be a fire on a very large establishment
  • The name of the place begins with “EN”
  • Fire will be gushing out
  • He sees a multi-storied building
  • The fire will be in a place where people gather, and people buy and sell
  • The fire disaster will cost millions of pounds

The Emmanuel TV broadcast relates this to the fire at the Sony Distribution Centre (large establishment) in Enfield (begins with EN). They show footage from the original prophecy (undated), followed by news footage of the apparently predicted event, then a repeat of the prophecy.

At first glance, given the way the prophecy is edited together with the news footage, there appear to be an impressive amount of accurate details predicted, although there is no indication how long ago the prophecy was made, nor details in the prophecy of when the events would happen (or even where, besides “EN”). The message may contain many details, but most of them are just stating the obvious. The essence of the prediction is that there will be a fire in a large building in a place beginning with EN in the United Kingdom. The rest of the details are inevitable given the main facts (a large establishment will almost certainly be multi-storied, and is almost certain to be located near shopping facilities (where people gather, buy and sell). A fire disaster at a large establishment will obviously cost millions of pounds). Even the essence of the prophecy is hardly impressive. Wikipedia lists 49 places in the United Kingdom beginning with EN, it was unlikely to be long before there was a fire at one of them.

The impression that we’re left with is that TB Joshua throws out these vague prophecies from time to time, then Emmanuel TV wait until a world event takes place which could arguably fit with the prophecy so they can edit together a video as testament to the “Prophet’s” ability.

As we can see, the veracity of the prophecy is seriously questionable, but it can’t be denied that some of the details do seem to match recent events. What are we to make of this? In 2 Samuel 8, Saul consults a fortune teller, who accurately predicts his imminent death. In Acts 16 we meet a slave girl who has a spirit which enables her to tell the future through supernatural means (Paul sets her free from this spirit). It is clear that the ability to tell the future cannot be seen as an endorsement from God.

But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort. (1 Cor 14:3)

The purpose of true prophecy is to strengthen, encourage and comfort. What aspect of this prophecy does that?

The prediction focused on the destruction of a building owned by the multinational company Sony, why focus on this instead of the many small family businesses destroyed by the fires?

What good does it do bringing this up after the event? What does it achieve besides promoting SCOAN and TB Joshua? (off the back of a tragedy!). A sympathetic reading of this would conclude that the purpose was prayer; foreknowledge of this event allowed people to be praying, and had it not been for these prayers, it could have been much worse. This interpretation is not one SCOAN offers through the video, but even if this was the case, what is the need to show off about it afterwards?

Does God get glorified for these predictions, or is it TB Joshua?

If you are a SCOAN supporter, feel free to tell us in the comments what you believe is their motivation behind the release of videos like this.

94 thoughts on “TB Joshua predicts the London Riots?

  1. In direct response to this question, aside from praying over the issue so as to salvage the situation,

    1. the confirmatory videos are also released as a SIGN and MESSAGE to the world-(many of whose inhabitants still see the bible as long ago event and ancient wisdom), that God still speaks today through his servants- the prophets-and by extension, a confirmation and authentification of the gospel message he preaches.

    !As long as the prophet himself takes no credit for the prophecy, God is pleased when they are renowned for their accurate prophecies because HE (GOD) supplies it and gives them expression. we know this from what God himself said to ezekiel:
    “And whether they hear or refuse to hear ( for they are a rebellious house ) THEY WILL KNOW THAT A PROPHET HAS BEEN AMONG THEM -Ezekiel 2:5

    Also “But when Elisha the man of God heard that the king of Israel had torn his clothes, he sent to the king, saying, “Why have you torn your clothes? Let him COME now to me, THAT HE MAY KNOW THAT THERE IS A PROPHET IN ISREAL. ” – II Kings 5:8.

    2. When a king injured himself and consulted other gods Elijah said ‘Is it because there is no God in Israel that you are going to inquire of Baal-zebub, the god of Ekron? – II Kings 1:3

    …Here we learn what is expected of people and nations in distress and also those who the prophecies concern, whether individuals or nations… What elisha requested of the troubled Syrian general- which is neither silver nor gold but to come and inquire of God from him as a prophet. Sadly today, our true prophets have only become unused or under-used resources- when making serious decisions of national interest, many nations have followed the advice of scientific and economic experts for centuries and have only ended up stuck in economic crisis and the likes- and its clear that time has come to listen to what God has to say on our personal and national issues through God’s servants. On taking a closer look its a sailent scriptural prophecy reaching its fufillment right under our noses:

    “Many PEOPLES and STRONG NATIONS shall COME to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem and to entreat the favour of the LORD”. – Zechariah 8:22.

    The present geographical location of Jerusalem has more of a historical relevance than spiritual- thus the ministry of SCOAN in Lagos, Nigeria to me is obviously gradually crystallising out to the world as the fufillment of a past prophecy “… the place which the LORD shall choose; – Deuteronomy 18:6

    Just as it is written: By a prophet the LORD brought Israel up from Egypt, and by a prophet he cared for them. – Hosea 12:13. I think the problem is we would rather read the bible alone Or hear a voice fom heaven direct for us to believe it is from God than accept that men can also hear from God and speak for him.

    • This must rank among the wackiest things I’ve ever read.

      Hilarious!

      Either that or you are completely delusional.

    • That’s got to rank as one of your scariest posts yet Soe, if that’s what you actually believe! There would be no point me responding to the vast majority of this, but I’ll pick on one point relevant to the original post.

      You say “As long as the prophet himself takes no credit for the prophecy…”. Have you watched the video?! God doesn’t get one iota of credit for this prediction, it all goes to TB Joshua. Not once does he claim this is a message from God. The Emmanuel TV voiceover announces it as “Prophet TB Joshua prophecies…”, again no mention of who the source of the prophecy is besides TB Joshua. Here’s a taster, you can watch it yourself to see that I’m not picking a choosing:

      I’m seeing a fire
      I’m trying to locate a place
      I’m seeing fire gushing
      This is what I am seeing

      Seriously Soe, how can you defend this?!

      • I did seem somewhat like a TV mind-reading trick… ‘I can see someone in red… a woman… with a hair-do…’
        Really didn’t seem like a message from our loving God – surely this prophesy is of no use to anyone but the insurance company. The fear within the hearts & minds of the UK this week had very little to do with this fire.

  2. So, I’ve clearly missed the point as all I can think about is the fact that Primark in Peckham got on Emmanuel TV. That was the most exciting bit….

    Back on the subject, I would agree with what you say about this being closer to fortune telling/divination than prophecy. Prophets aren’t supposed to just pull these cheap tricks out of the bag, they’re meant to prophesy for a reason. This had no such reason…did people pray about it at SCOAN? Maybe, yes. But it still happened. If they’d have prayed about it enough then might it not have happened, in which case would the prophecy be unproven? More to the point, did SCOAN share information with churches in the UK so that we could all be praying about it too? If they didn’t, this smacks of being wise after the event i.e. keeping this knowledge quiet so that they could roll out this video after it had all happened.

    And it does seem strange how the prophecies are undated. They could have happened ten years ago for all I know. Or the day after the fire, with TBJ wearing three different shirts….!

    • A commenter on youtube points out that none of the people in the meeting seem to be watching TB Joshua or paying any attention to him. I think he’s actually got a point. It looks as if they were doing a quick piece to camera before a service using the congregants as a back drop to make it look like a live service.

      Can anyone familiar with SCOAN comment on this? Is this something they might do? Or is there a reason for the audiences apparent disinterest?

  3. what exactly is the purpose of these “prophecies”? They’re vague, and dont prevent anything at all. I mean, why cant God give the full name of this place? Why just “EN”?

    • @ tb joshua watch

      again, i find it difficult to think you are absolutely serious in what you are saying as there is so much sarcasm in your tone, even if you believe you are speaking the truth, is there any occasion or reason to mock?

      regarding the prophecy, although there are a few places in the uk, starting with ‘en’ do you really think that there was such a strong likelihood of a very large establishment going up in flames in one of those places? and where the damage would cost millions of pounds? that’s quite difficult to say…. this event was huge. ok and if it was just that he randomly mentioned that, what possessed him to say ‘en’ and no other combination of letters? is it just by chance that he chose to use ‘en’ and then this fire took place in enfield? if this particularly prophecy was perhaps by chance, then what can we say about the many others that have been confirmed in similar ways?

      you said:
      “The prediction focused on the destruction of a building owned by the multinational company Sony, why focus on this instead of the many small family businesses destroyed by the fires?”
      if this prophecy was from God, i don’t think it would be tb joshua’s place to question the contents of the prophecy – God chose to reveal about the building and not the small family businesses – is that for tbj or the scoan or you or i to question?

      Also, regarding the purpose of the videos, it is to let people know that there is a prophet of God in this generation – people all over the world should take heed and begin to recognise this. perhaps if this happened, who knows… there are some events that can be changed by prayer…
      hezekiah prayed to God when prophet isaiah told him what God said concerning him and the event was changed and God gave him 15 more years (isaiah 38:1-5)

      • When God spoke to Moses in the bush, was it in parables?
        When God spoke to Adam and Eve in the Garden, was it in parables?
        When God spoke to Noah (actually a warning), was it in parables?

        Jesus spoke in parables to explain a spiritual concepts…

        The prophets of the old testaments did not, for instance, talk about some nations starting with a ___ (fill int he blank). They would name the nation. What about the sequence of events.

        Your comment does not make sense.

  4. @ Ian,

    Regarding the words…

    I’m seeing a fire
    I’m trying to locate a place
    I’m seeing fire gushing
    This is what I am seeing…

    he obviously didn’t lie- He said what he saw! He testified to what he saw in the spirit as a prophet-and what he tried doing to be more specific- seriously, how is testifying to what you see taking credit? Oh or is it because its spiritual?

    I think our prayer should be that our eyes and that of our many pastors and prophets in London and the world may be opened to see the things that are in the spirit- in the same way elisha’s servants eyes were opened and he saw horses and chariots of fire all around elisha. Many acclaimed prophets exist in London, even some close to the scene- where an African prophet is saying this- they need prayers for spiritual uplift, why should such earth shaking events (the one above just being an atom) escape the vision of the acclaimed true prophets and be shown to the alleged false one? If he were false, let the true ones speak forth- or are there no longer prophets? The other day one predicted the end of the world- and we saw the outcome- yet nobody talks about that-but the one who spoke and it happened is being put on trial- having prophets also means being prepared for coming events- it wouldn’t take us unawares.

    • how is testifying to what you see taking credit?

      OK, let’s flip this around. You’re the one who (rightly) mentioned the importance of a prophet giving credit to God for their prophecies. You tell me how in this video TB Joshua gave credit to God.

  5. hi ian, you or the commenter couldn’t be more wrong.

    This prophecy was given some time last year, I specifically remember it and was waiting for the fulfilment of it to take place here in the UK. He did mention it three different times, which is why he is of course wearing three different shirts. do you not think that if such practise that you are referring took place in scoan, by now, tbj would have been found out or classed as a false prophet. if it was all staged or pre-recorded, then thousands of the viewers of etv would cry out that they never saw such a thing said live. but the prophecies are given in live services, for all the viewers to witness.

    for someone to speak out live in a huge service like that for thousands (and tens of thousands) to hear, in my mind, you either have to be totally crazy/ mad or totally false or speaking from God. the live services on emmanuel tv have been going on long enough, if tbj had been prophesying falsely all this time, he would have surely been exposed by now – and it is clear that tbj is neither mad, or crazy.

    • There are too many dodgy prophecies. We have a few people on site who already said their parents/loved ones were told they were healed and ended up dying. If there are only a few on a site like it will probably translate to 100s if not 1000s of people out there who are in the same boat.

      I heard a message of TBJ last year where he said that if a prophet gets his prophecy wrong once he is not a prophet at all (based on a text in Deut). By his own definition he is a false prophet.

      At least one thing I agree with him.

    • its all propaganda. you can make people believe anything you want if you control what they see. All you have to do to make people believe you is to repeat the lie again and again.

  6. @ian

    He said he God showed him everything, said what he saw as he was shown and said we should pray to God -glorifies God with his life and messages- what else would you have him do?

    And for better clarity of my first response;
    This is what I believe TB joshua is saying through these videos:

    “What God predicted through me has
    now happened, thus when next I prophesy of an imminent danger- come to me to I will ASk for and tell you God’s opinion on the situation and how to avert it where possible”.

    Its logical to believe that if God has shown TB Joshua these future events and disasters before they happen, it means God has also given him the SOLUTION and PRECAUTIONS if it is an imminent danger of a disaster- which is the real essense of these prophecies

    So I think he gives the prophecies as he’s shown- which should get the attention of the people or nations concerned to seek COUNSEL of the LORD through him – or who else is better to seek counsel from than the one to whom it was revealed- just as pharaoh rightly knew that was why he said to Joseph:

    “Since God has shown you all this, there is none so discerning and wise as you are. – Genesis 41:39-

    Imagine pharoah going ahead to consult his food experts of his day on the way out of the imminent famine Joseph predicted? They would likely have suggested irrigation systems, or dry farming-and thus lead the world to starve to death..

    but the one with divine insight knew the true extent of the famine- that nothing and nothing could be done except to store up food and preserve it-

    If our leaders worldwide are going to save thousands of lives from natural disasters, save lots of money pumped into the relief of affected areas and companies save themselves huge losses etc. they should learn from pharaoh in the bible who when Joseph revealed the future disaster to happen to his nation to him, consulted him for a way out.

    this is where our leaders and politicians are lacking today- they
    Consulting the scientists and other experts (which is not wrong) but neglect prophets Like TBJoshua.

    With the counsel of prophets like him thousands of people should have long evacuated an area before an earthquake occurs,a tornado, tsumami, or fire would strike a place already empty of people. Planes that would crash would not even take off at all- etc in the end thousands would be saved.

    • In the video, he never once mentioned God’s name as the source of what he saw. It was all about what he saw. You may choose to read into it whatever you want, but there isn’t evidence for it in the video.

      I find your idea of world leaders seeking the advice of “Prophets” like TB Joshua hilarious. I can picture the scene:

      Prime Minister: “So prophet, what should we be looking out for?”
      TBJ: “I see a fire, a gushing fire”
      PM: “Oh no, where will it be?”
      TBJ: “In the UK”
      PM: “Yeah, well I assumed that, where in the UK?”
      TBJ: “Wait, I’m getting the name”
      PM: “Excellent, what is it?”
      TBJ: “It’s spelt E….. N……..”
      PM: “Yeah……”
      TBJ: “I’m trying to see the other letters”
      PM: “OK…”
      TBJ: “Nope, that’s all I’ve got. The place name starts with EN”
      PM: “OK, if you can’t tell me where, at least tell me when it will happen”
      TBJ: “Um…. In the future…. Do you want to know the score of the next Nigeria game? I’m good at those predictions!”
      PM: *hangs up phone*

      I think TB Joshua needs to go back to Soothsayer school before he expects to be taken seriously by world leaders!

  7. Ian don’t picture what hasn’t happen.
    TB JOSHUA always come out plain when he’s approached by leaders.
    I hav witnessed it.even when He was approached by the Ganian coach.God used Tb Joshua to tell him all that would happen.

    So The fact is, two believers are better than one.there’s greater productivity in working together.Ecc 4:9.
    TB Joshua said this on Emmanuel tv.
    How else do you expect Him to communicate this to the world? The leaders also have their role to play.
    Ok you expected Him to mention everything? If He had done so do you think the leaders would say “if not for God through the prophecy of Tb Joshua, we wouldn’t have able to avert this disaster”? My God is not so cheep.
    Even Jesus will not perform miracles unless the peoples belief are tested.
    Until the world leaders recognise the full presence of God in prophets, they’ll keep facing situations like this.

  8. I have encountered the reasoning that says “This man has predicted ……” therefore he is anointed and a Man of God but I do not find this video proves that in any way.

    My first reason is the lack of dates. My understanding of the old testament prophets was that they were willing to put their lives on the line to declare what God was revealing to them. TBJoshua has not even made a record of the dates and times that these words were revealed to him. What does that mean? – is it that he does not have confidence in them?
    I know people who keep prayer diaries and record where God has revealed something to them so that they can go back and say that it is proven that God has been at work. They do that because they write the DATES when God gave them the revelation.

    I wonder – are descriptions such as this regular occurrences at SCOAN meetings so that something of some sort is “predicted” every Sunday but a video is only compiled when there is a concurrence of events.

    Another reason that this video does not lead me to trust the man is the Title.
    “UK Riots predicted”
    There is NOTHING in what he says that mentions riots. He saw Fire.
    Fires are occurring all of the time and often cause millions of pounds worth of damage. They generally do not make the international news. In this case the fire was part of riots but he did not see riots he did not say riots HE DID NOT PREDICT RIOTS. And I have the evidence in the video that he did not predict riots. So to present this video as the riots being predicted is blatantly untrue. Who decided that this was going to be the name of the video?

    I will make a prediction now – I do not claim this as a revelation from God. As a result of these riots that have occurred I predict that churches will join together and get out into the community and demonstrate the love of Jesus and demonstrate a prophetic lifestyle as peacemakers and providers of comfort. I predict that there will be situations that are not displayed on any TV channel where Jesus name will be praised as a result of the people of Jesus in these communities.
    I do not see how this video will result in the glorifying of Jesus name.

  9. @ Ian,
    Your picture sounds very faulty, you sounded like a prime minister is greater than a true prophet, TBJ would not say this because of his humility but I know that there is no world leader that has ever lived or that will ever live that is greater than any true prophet of God- talk more of the likes of TBJ.

    2. the ever increasing list of leaders around the world openly going to him is a proof that some have already began taking him very seriously, its only a matter of time before many more of them do and I don’t think giving incomplete details is what is winning them over, or football prophecies alone.
    Madeline stated that he did not predict riots
    – yet he did say the whole thing would start from Thursday- the very day the policeman shot a man and the riot started.
    – Why mention the UK of all the other 201 sovereign states in the world?
    – As radicalised said why “en” not any other of the 649 possible combination of 2 letters?
    – the mention of a multistory building?
    – The mention of a “gushing fire” ?
    – Saying it three different times..?.

    Come on! though the details of that prophecy may not be enough to make everyone get the whole picture, it doesn’t take much reasoning to realise from the abridged but explicit and sharp details he gave- that he knows more than he’s telling. Which he often hints by saying:
    “God showed me the whole thing clear” but “I will not say more than that”

    personally I believe “God showed him everything about the event” but giving full details publicly could make some even allege that he himself caused the fire, so I think the abridged version is just a way of being careful when delivering such a sensitive message to the public.

    A servant cannot be greater than his Master, the bible says Jesus did not say a word to the people without using a parable, but when he was alone with his disciples he explained everything”
    … Because they were the people the message was meant for at the time!-

    I very much believe he would go into the complete details if he met the people concerned as Doi rightly said.

    No matter what we say here, one fact remains- prophets with such prophetic prowess like his appear only once in a while, we are yet to see any other like him, and the earlier we embrace ” his gift” the better for all of us- with such prophets in our midst- it is needless recording thousands of lives lost in natural disasters Or nations nose diving into economic crisis and the likes, of him the saying is really true ” a prophet to the nations”!

    • If we’re talking authority in the UK, the PM is greater than any “true prophet”, fact. My imaginary dialogue was actually an extremely accurate relaying of the prophecy, I didn’t portray it as being any less accurate than it was on the video. Where did he predict the riots or the date it would all kick off? Certainly not in the video they released. Also, as usual you’re ignoring the most significant point in preference for minor details – you still haven’t explained how (in the video embedded in the post) TB Joshua gave any credit to God for the prophetic word. You seem to either be assuming he said things that he didn’t, or you have a different source on information to us, in which case it would be useful to know what it is so we can be talking about the same thing!

  10. What I think is important as a level of check here about the Prophetic. Many “predictions” made, but most if not all were never prevented or altered and changed.

    I thought always that Prophecies were for repentance, change of course of direction, alter the course of the future.

    The “predicitions” passed off as a prophecy are more in the category of “word of knowledge”, not prophecy.

    Word of knowledge is regarded as a supernatural revelation of knowledge through the power of the Holy Spirit. It is closely related to the gift of the word of wisdom.

    But it very much could look like divination, which is not of God. The same technique I see applied when an individual “prophecy” is given. This very much again looks like “a word of knowledge”. But again, could be achieved into be able to consult familiar spirits or speaking with the “dead” (demonic forces) and (out of body experiences aka Astral Projection) and consult spirits in the spiritual realm.

    What validates me as well I read in Ian, Madeleine, Someone, and myself posts is that we clearly see a lack of the glorification of Jesus Christ and God in it and most of it goes to T. B. Joshua. Only the slogan, “that God is still saying something” is there. But what was God actually saying ? Did He say through the prediction, repent ? Come to Me for I will change the future through this event, or many will be saved because of what I said. None of this I see happening.

    I want to say also, There are first order Prophets, which were like Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and there are second order prophets which are “some” that have the office of a Prophet today. May I also say, that EVERYONE is called to prophesy. And everyone can prophesy. Most will have dreams, visions, words, flashes and indications of what the future brings. God speaks through everyone through His entire Creation. An example is even through animals. Donkeys, for example. Numbers 22:28 and

    The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
    Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge.
    There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard.
    Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.

    I personally can say that God has spoken through me personally and has shown me the future. I also have been shown the names of some that write here. The reason ? Because God has put His Spirit in me. There is actually no need to follow or watch a prophet, you can know it by yourself and you can ask for it too. But know this:

    Here it is written: Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. But ye have an UNCTION from the Holy One, and ye know ALL things. 1 John 2:18-20

  11. It is clear that in SCOAN people are gradually led to believe that TBJ speaks for “God”…and we are taught not to question, to “doubt the doubt” After all, who indeed are we to question God?

    For several years I fell for this myself…until a deep discomfort within me about the things I was witnessing in SCOAN through the lives of people very close to me, led me to pray with another for wisdom and led me to seek God with all my heart….the God of the Bible. It was as if I woke up spiritually and the “scales fell from my eyes”.

    Surrounded by incredible miracles and evidence of “great signs and wonders” indeed (I have witnessed many) and for those deep within SCOAN who are so controlled and have very little access to the outside world and to genuine free thought for themselves (or for that matter space enough to listen to the still small voice of the HOLY Spirit to speak to them personally) I am not surprised it is so difficult to comprehend or entertain for one moment that TBJ might not be who he claims to be.

    This is a spiritual battle on a far grander scale than I ever first imagined. Many have invested their very lives (and some their death)

    The fundamental question, with dare I say it, eternal consequences is which “god” he speaks for, what source the power is from.

    There is no question of the presence of a huge power here. But weren’t we warned that we, even the elect, would be deceived, not just with signs and wonders but with GREAT signs and wonders.

    In the context of SCOAN…the prophecy (which, as mentioned in other posts, is not prophecy in the Biblical sense..) adds to the sense of wonder and the sense of spiritual inferiority that one feels in relation to TBJ. It elevates him, creates an awe, even worship.

    When it is fulfilled it is used to give credence and publicity to TBJ and, even more cleverly, and much more sinister, is the implication that the prayer of believers doesn’t work, failed in some way or worse that God did or could not answer. Clever stuff. I think that in a very subtle way that this leads people away from seeking God himself and shifts the focus to TBJ. This is a common thread…

    • Excellent post Hattie, you’ve got some really important insights there from your time involved with SCOAN. Praise God that he gave you a way out into the freedom of his grace.

  12. @ Ian & Madeleine
    In answer to your question about the title:

    He did mention the day to pray on the third occasion he prophesied on the Fire as a THURSDAY- the very day mark was shot dead, which became the spark that ignited the riot which then came to a climax with the inferno, even the day to pray was a part of the prophecy itself which perhaps escaped your notice,the call to pray on Thursday spoke more of the riot than of the fire itself. The prophecy was given with very clear and explicit details yet remained in parables, and would require wisdom to understand fully.

    @ Hattie
    Welcome to the discussion, while we being concerned about TBJ not taking credit & talking about a “sense of spiritual inferiority that one feels in relation to TBJ” and how the prophecies ” elevate him”, We should dreadfully avoid being in the camp of the likes of Korah, dathan and abiram who felt Moses was exalting himself above all the people because of the grace of God in is Life: “They assembled themselves together against Moses and against Aaron and said to them, “You have gone too far! For all in the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the LORD is among them. Why then do you exalt yourselves above the assembly of the LORD? ” – Numbers 16:3.

    – TBJ has never gloried in himself but in the LORD, I may seek and defend his honour here, but he doesn’t praise himself which is what the bible instructs: Let another praise you, and not your own mouth; someone else, and not your own lips. – Proverbs 27:2.

    You said: The fundamental question, with dare I say it, eternal consequences is which “god” he speaks for, what source the power is from.

    Your question reminds me of the question the pharisees asked Jesus on the authority by which he performed miracles & also how they stated in John 9- that they did not know where he comes from- as someone also once said somewhere on this site that TBJ’s powers are of an unknown origin!

    Nicodemus response to Jesus is my answer to your question: … we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him. ” – John 3:2. Its really disheartening that we rate God so Low these days that the greater works are ascribed to satan and not Him.

    • He didn’t prophecy it as starting on a Thursday, he said “…so on Thursday we will pray and fast”. You’re twisting his words! According to Radicalised this prophecy was given sometime last year, so the thursday in question was months before the riots started. When you start twisting words like this, it really smacks of desperation. Also, you have still said nothing to support your claim that TB Joshua was giving credit to God for this word.

    • Hello Soe. The title of the video says

      “UK Riots Prophesied”

      it does not say

      “UK Riots prophesied for those who have wisdom to interpret that mention of one of the seven days in the week has a hidden message in it”.

      This is like the water where the message on the bottle had to be qualified with detailed explanations.
      .
      I can almost guarantee that in the part of the UK called ENgland there will be a fire somewhere every Thursday of the year. Admittedly not all of them will be office building but it does not take much fire to cause millions of pounds of damage.
      I want to ask how any one, any where can take this seriously? But I know Soe that you do take it seriously and every argument is countered with either an explanation or an implication that more wisdom is required.

  13. @Madaline.tell me why you are so much concern about the date.”which in this example makes it meaningless
    will this video be shown 10 years time still trying to present it as proof of this mans anointen”
    my question is; have you ever experienced such? If you haven’t why bothering yourself imagining things that has not happen? Lets deal with proof.i believe this is the aim of this blog.so lets stop bothering about wether the dates were there or not.
    The fact is He did prophesy it.before it happened and i was in the live service.

    • Hi Doi.If the date were put on the video that would be proof to anyone that this occurred before the event. however SCOAN have chosen not to give that proof.

  14. @ Ian,

    If it was given several months before it happened it speaks even a better word of the accuracy and precision of his prophetic words: why not any other day of the week? And I’ll take your comment that I’m twisting his words to mean I had a better understanding of his prophecy than you did.

    Talking about who gets the credit-perhaps you want him to repeat every second what he says already too often that he’s Not the one doing these works whether prophecy, healing , deliverance etc-so just because it wasn’t explicitly stated in this message- he Has now taken the credit or did not give God the credit? Seriously how? He didn’t take any credit for this Just as he also did give honour to God and here are my reasons:

    1. saying we should “fast and pray” in itself is honour to God – implying that the one who gave the vision -IS ABLE to change the situation and it Honours God to believe HIM- infact it is His greatest pleasure! or what would you have him say: “Thus says the lord- there would be fire!”- and that would be giving honour to God by your judgement?

    2. I maintain that he honoured God, even by his concern for the great nation, and deep concern for that establishment’s great Losses, it became clear when he mentioned it three different times, when- he has no affiliation whatsoever with them.

    3. I also maintain that he very much honoured God by not keeping the vision to himself, which God would have held him accountable for.

    In the end, God is not looking for the honour with our lips alone but also the honour with our lives when we offer it as a sacrifice in Holy living in a manner TBJ Also impressively does-

    And there is one more thing- there’s something called a “prophets honour” Which Jesus said a prophet always has except in his home town ” – Matthew 13:57. I guess you would rather not see even an iota of this honour on tBJ himself!

    • If it was given several months before it happened it speaks even a better word of the accuracy and precision of his prophetic words

      Not really, every day that goes by after a vague non dated prophecy like that it becomes more likely that events matching the “prophecy” will coincidentally happen. That’s why the date is significant, if the fasting was called on the very thursday it started off, it would be more credible. If it was 4 years ago, it has hardly any credibility.

      And I’ll take your comment that I’m twisting his words to mean I had a better understanding of his prophecy than you did.

      Okkaaaaaaayyyy……

      The main thing here is not the accuracy of the prophecy, I will admit – the descriptions do fit the Enfield fire reasonably well. The key issues are as follows:
      1. The prophecy bears no resemblance to biblical prophecy
      2. The prophecy had no purpose
      3. The presentation of prophecy does nothing to glorify God, and everything to glorify TB Joshua

      perhaps you want him to repeat every second what he says already too often that he’s Not the one doing these works

      You seem to constantly compare him to Old Testament prophets – have you read how frequently they use the Lord’s name?
      The Lord has spoken, Thus says the Lord etc…

  15. @ Hattie,

    “When it is fulfilled it is used to give credence and publicity to TBJ and, even more cleverly, and much more sinister, is the implication that the prayer of believers doesn’t work, failed in some way or worse that God did or could not answer. Clever stuff. I think that in a very subtle way that this leads people away from seeking God himself and shifts the focus to TBJ. This is a common thread…”

    One wonders why this is happening, why is the focus upon T. B. Joshua, instead of Jesus ? When I see the videos I see “T. B. Joshua”, “T. B. Joshua”, “Man of God”, not Jesus, Jesus is my saviour, Jesus is my Lord. I see people walking after a man. While Jesus should be in that place. Again it poses here that many christ’s shall arise. Does anyone know when the “powers” of T. B. Joshua started, like when he was really young, older ? There is something out on the internet that he claims he is born with them somewhere and that he was already a born again christian in the mothers womb. Did they start suddenly, or did they start after praying and laying hands on many ? What does he do in his private time when he separates himself from all others. Has anyone seen him doing specific things or watching him doing astral projection or out of body experiences, sitting under pyramid windows to collect powers as some do, has anyone see him doing chi or ki power exercises, has anyone seen him do prana yama exercises, has anyone observed him awakening the seven chakra s in others or himself, has anyone observed him drinking water that is placed in the sunlight for a long time. These things are all practiced by guru’s from India, China, Japan who exhibit similar strong powers.

    For example in this short video. Big similarities what T. B. Joshua does.

    “http://youtu.be/Vt7MGgxbhho” please copy and paste in browser.

  16. Madaline, thats exactly what am talking abt.it was broadcast live.i and other E.tv viewers witnessed it.what other evidence do you need? If it hadn’t been broadcast live then what you are insinuating would have bin correct.but otherwise is the case.
    Can we now close this point?
    Who ever dosen’t want to believe then…..but Even if they do not believe.i know with time they would like soe previously mentioned.

  17. @ Ian,

    “You seem to constantly compare him to Old Testament prophets – have you read how frequently they use the Lord’s name?

    The Lord has spoken, Thus says the Lord etc…”

    That is exactly what I would be saying. It is missing, totally and completely. It is a general
    “revelation” if it were a revelation from God about an event that has happened and indeed what purpose does it have ????

    Nothing has been done with it, nothing was prevented, nothing was changed in the process of it, it’s like watching the TV for next week playing in front of you right now and you tell everyone what you have seen, but nobody is doing anything with it.

    The only thing I can think of is, there is prayer raised up for it. But clearly nothing was changed in the spiritual realm there that manifested in the natural. Is that not interesting and strange ? Secondly who cares about a Sony building burning down ? Does this save anyone ? Does this fit in God’s end time plan ?

    Does this alter the course of the future for God to do His will ?

    None of it is fitting in there. I have noticed that T. B. Joshua usually makes predictions about
    disasters, but not what God is doing after that or for what purpose…….. If he was speaking to God, God would have told him that too and tell us, I believe. He did that to all major prophets in the bible. Just look it up and see. There is no comparison of being branded here as “prophet to the nations”. There are many so called “prophets to the nations” Let me mention a few that they think they are so, Kim Clement, John Paul Jackson, Perry Stone, Chuck D. Pierce, Bob Jones, Rick Joyner, William Marion Branham, Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, Roberts Liardon, Stephen Chaote, just to name a few. All claim to be God’s mouthpiece, but many have prophecied in error in many occassions. Biblical prophecy is much richer in content and very precise and above all totally directed in what God is doing as He has set out to do……

    Most prophecies were about Jesus and will be about Jesus and His second coming and His coming Kingdom of God ruling in this Earth. What use is it when a building is on fire ? It means to me nothing and I notice that many people are in awe about this ? Is it not more important when it goes about Jesus and what He is going to do and what His next step and move is ?

  18. Hello Ian,

    Talking about resemblance of TBJ’s prophecies in Parables to bible prophecy, I keep saying that a servant cannot be greater than his master,

    Case1. remember the prophecy Jesus gave about himself?
    Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. ” – John 2:19. This was purely a prophecy in parables in which Christ was referring to his death but here was their understanding of it:
    The Jews then said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days? ” – John 2:20

    In response to your second key issue:
    I. What was the purpose of this sort of prophecy Christ gave in your opinion? Would you also classify it as vague?

    Recall that it only got them confused and even gave them a foothold to condemn him during his trial by quoting it out of context : “We heard him say, ‘I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and in three days I will build another, not made with hands. ‘” – Mark 14:58.

    Case2. what about the prophecy Jesus gave of the Temple’s destruction: But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down. ” – Matthew 24:2.

    ii. How many details were given in this prophecy?- where is time and date?
    iii. what do you think was its purpose?
    iv. why didn’t he pray that the temple’s destruction would be averted?

    No wonder in all TBJ’s prophecies after praying for God’s Mercy he concludes by praying that the will of God should be done in the fashion of his Master- Jesus Christ!

    My point in summary, the Holy spirit is the one who powerfully excites and effectually guides the prophets into what they are to deliver of the mind of God. Our role is not to question how they should or shouldn’t have said it, but to be wise when they speak, and if possible ask that they give further details- like the disciples asked:… “Teacher, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when these things are about to take place? ” – Luke 21:7 and reading to the 36th verse we see how He gave them direct clues to these future events.

    As for your third key issue- I did addressed it in my previous post.

    • @ Soe,

      I will take the freedom of answering a few of those questions you make about the prophecy of the Temple.

      1. This prophecy was not about the Temple (even though it was destroyed in 70 AD, it was about Him (Jesus) being raised from the dead by the Holy Spirit.

      2. Jesus was preparing with prophetic means that man should no longer worship in the Temple as preparation for something greater, but we ourself have become the Temple where God has taken His residence by the Baptism of the Holy Spirit in us.

      Because the time was not there yet and it happened after Paul Journeys, He did not make a date or time. Secondly Jesus did not witness in His body this prophecy to be materialized.

      The Temple has become in this later date as insignificant for God’s plan in Saving Mankind in this World, hence He did not pray for it not to be destroyed. Again this was in the greater plan of God for the Salvation of Mankind.

      It was absolutely NOT vague, it was very clear that God had a better plan set out.

      Comparing T. B. Joshua’s predictions to Jesus’s prophecies is just out of order. Don’t you know that it says:

      Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. <~~~~~

      It's again all about Jesus, God, His Spirit and His planned future reign and Him in it and not about T. B. Joshua and his questionable and strange ability to predict something. Again I have to say that those predictions are totally not comparable with those of the Temple your quote here and the predictions that T. B. Joshua gives. A Sony building, and earthquake, Tsunami or a plane crashing has nothing to do with God. This Earth is prone to decay and crust movements in the plates that push against each other, Buildings are prone to fire, planes are prone to crash. It has to do with mankind failing of what God is really saying. As far as I can see, they don't change the future of God's plan, they don't alter the time and place and are not rich in Biblical standards of prophecy plus they don't fit in God's plan as far as I can see in the Salvation of Mankind. For your information Soe about Salvation, this is God's ultimate Plan when it comes to Prophecy application at this moment in time.

      Answer this question to yourself. How many people got saved because of a burning Sony building, Riots or a plane crash, besides people in SCOAN and on the Internet that go Oooh, Aaaahh, T. B. Joshua is a man of God he predicted a Sony building gone up in fire ? What about those in the Plane crash, Earthquakes and Tsunamis ? Did people make on that moment the choice to get saved when they died ? Perhaps some did, but it is an awkward position to get saved into don't you think. People will get saved, when a true prophet speaks and God averts the disaster because of His mercy and Grace form mankind and the true prophet says, I did hear this from God.

      Soe, let me make it clearer to you, MOST prophecies on SCOAN.org are about disasters, do you agree. Can you tell me how many got saved and were averted by a Supernatural intervention from God after T. B. Joshua spoke them ?

    • As for your third key issue- I did addressed it in my previous post.

      Yeah, you addressed it, but as I pointed out it was inadequate. You asked if he should be repeating every second that the words are from God not from him. I said that if you read the prophets of the old testament, they are constantly making it clear they are speaking on God’s behalf. You are left in no doubt who they are talking for. In that video there is no indication that he is speaking on God’s behalf. The OT prophets made it explicit, with TB Joshua at best it is implicit, but you have to give him the benefit of the doubt even for that.

  19. Hi Hattie,
    for several years I fell for this myself until a deep discomfort within me about the things i was witnessing in SCOAN through the lives of people very close to me.
    I’m not really cleared about this paragraph. What did you witness? And what actually happened that made you change your mind? And How certain are you about all these.

    • Here we go again. Where someone on this site even hints or alludes to something that they were not OK with in SCOAN there is a response that says “How certain are you?” At least here it is just a gentle question. Are you interested in what Hattie has to say or do you want to plant a seed of uncertainty?

  20. @ Naradi
    I wouldn’t want to argue on the temple prophecy issue in Matt 24:1-2, so as not to go off topic, though I very much disagree with you, yet it was just to buttress my point which you also obviously missed, but let me answer your relevant question?

    Can you tell me how many got saved and were averted by a Supernatural intervention from God after T. B. Joshua spoke them”?

    That depends very much on the HEARING, OBEDIENCE and PRAYER of the people concerned not just on the prophet alone: take for instance the prophecy TBJ gave of a family plane crash:

    On Sunday 19th&26TH April, 2009,he said: “On FRIDAY, remember putting it in prayer. A situation where families will be inside a plane – when I say family, like husband and wife, children and others – and something happens inside the air. FRIDAY of the month – put it in prayer and fast…. I saw the whole family -they entered the private jet and the plane crashed. if it’s just one person that would go but all the family, they just entered the plane! Please fast and pray. Pray for the family. Where are these family going? Where are they going? I’m seeing crash. So, all over the world, if you are moving with family, your children, yourself, please read Psalm 91:7-end. Jesus will be with you.” read Psalm 91:7-end. Jesus will be with you.”

    On FRIDAY 22nd May, 2009, the tragic news came that a British born Brazilian businessman and nine members of his family died when their plane crashed in Trancoso, north eastern Brazil. All 14 people on board were killed. This tragedy which saw the death of 4 generations of the same family shocked the nation of Brazil and the world.

    Listen to the details of this prophecy, it was explicitly clear enough to be avoided-if they themselves didn’t hear then what of friends?, neighbours? Colleagues?- I guess it would have paid them their lives to be viewers of Emmanuel tv- they could also have travelled on any other day, not FRIDAY itself or even decide not to travel at all- who do you now blame that this now happened?-would you blame the prophet that spoke out the warning out or the People concerned that refused to listen and obey? I must say when it comes to prophecies like this with lives on the line we must put aside whatever doubts we have about his anointing, calling etc, and take the best course to secure ourselves from the message itself and prayer.

  21. @ian

    Only those who don’t know the meaning of the word “prophet” will be left in doubt about who he speaks for, you and naradi keep talking about the old testament prophets, still you are wrong in saying they are always making it clear that they are speaking on God’s behalf, take these few instances:

    “By the command of the LORD one of the sons of the prophets said to his companion, “Strike me with your weapon. ” But the man refused to strike him. – I Kings 20:35.

    Then he found another man and said, “Strike me, please. ” And the man struck him — struck him and wounded him. – I Kings 20:37

    And Elijah said to Ahab, “Go up, eat and drink, for there is a sound of the rushing of rain. ” – I Kings 18:41

    And Elisha sent a messenger to him, saying, “Go and wash in the Jordan seven times, and your flesh shall be restored, and you shall be clean. ” – II Kings 5:10.

    …And many examples abound….

    why didn’t they use the prefix “thus says the LORD ” in these cases? It doesn’t take much wisdom to know that a prophet is someone who always speaks of the mind of God, whether they say so or not makes no difference.

    Even Jesus gave lots of prophecies- some about the nation of Israel, and others to individuals like the samaritan woman and NOT ONCE did he say “Thus says the LORD” before declaring the prophecies, He only made it clear to us that; “…. The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works- John14:10- which TBJ has also said in the same fashion with His master at many different times in so many ways that: “the words he speaks are not his”

    I see us having a tug of war here with a bit of a non-issue! besides- I don’t know which one really tells you more of the source of a prophecy, is it the CLAIM that “God says thus” with the lips while saying it or the accuracy and fulfillment of what is being said?

    • Those examples you give are words of prophets, but aren’t exactly prophecies in the way we’re talking about them – they are all part of dialogues. We’re talking about prophetic messages being brought. I still maintain that no OT prophets leave you in any doubt as to who’s words they are speaking.

      It doesn’t take much wisdom to know that a prophet is someone who always speaks of the mind of God

      Thanks for that – most enlightening. I guess this ties in with your Man of God = infallible belief.

      Even Jesus gave lots of prophecies- […] NOT ONCE did he say “Thus says the LORD”

      Er… he is the Lord.

  22. @ Madeline
    You said you do not see how the prophecy video glorifies Jesus:

    If you do not see it-perhaps I can show you, We cannot even begin to quantify the glory these prophecies bring to Christ through the following:

    1. the enormous belief in the Christian faith these prophecies have prompted.

    2. The many atheists and skeptics that have been forced to retake another stand as a result of them

    3. How much people’s faith have been encouraged & strengthened that God has not left us in the dark concerning future events!

    4. How they prepare Christian faithful s for the changes that may occur in their fortunes and keeps them watchful!

    5. How it sends an incontestable message to the world of the omnipotence and might of the Christ we preach and further validates the gospel message!

    6. How it causes many leaders and politicians to seek God’s opinion, most of whom their people look up to but never before now knew the stand they’ve taken as regards the christain faith.

    “Take a cue from how the Ghanian people must have felt watching their president on his knees before God in Scoan- speaks a lot for itself than mere claim, and would be a source of inspiration to his people”!

    7. Perhaps you haven’t noticed, There is a huge REVIVAL such Great works of prophecy and miracles have on even the WORST of an unbelieving people or nation that would have otherwise not surrendered to Jesus- however wonderfully and convincingly we preach! Jesus himself proves this when he said that Sodom and Gomorrah would have remained to this day if he had done his mighty miracles among them: “And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the skies? No, You will be brought down to the depths. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. – Matthew 11:23

    You would agree with me that Sodomy,unbelief, atheism and skepticism is now widespread even among nations, don’t you see these prophecies as a powerful evangelical weapon for conviction alongside the Gospel message to turn such to God?
    Or what would you rather have – that such a rare gift Is hidden? Or worse still that it -disappears from the earth?

    Jesus also stated elsewhere that: “Unless you see signs and wonders you will not believe. ” – John 4:48
    We may not like his TBJs style, dressing, looks or whatever- but must we also hate such a rare gift of prophecy?…, in my opinion its certainly not one to be fought against- if we seek the greater good of the Kingdom of God.

    • Dear Soe
      I said that I did not see how this video gave Glory to Jesus and you have replied to me with a list of sweeping generalised statements, that it seems are not specific to this video. But basically Soe you and I live in different worlds. I would not dare to show this video to a sceptic because I would expect huge guffaws of laughter. There is no way that it sends an incontestable message to the people of the world that I live in for the reasons that I have stated before. Namely that it is not specific regarding chronology and that it is mis-represented. I have no problem in believing that prophecy is part of the gracious work of God, but not this one mate. Not where I live.

  23. @ Soe

    “You would agree with me that Sodomy,unbelief, atheism and skepticism is now widespread even among nations, don’t you see these prophecies as a powerful evangelical weapon for conviction alongside the Gospel message to turn such to God?
    Or what would you rather have – that such a rare gift Is hidden? Or worse still that it -disappears from the earth?”

    No, I do not agree, because of this reason. Have you not read ? This is what the bible says about the end times and what you think is applicable here:

    This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. 2 Timothy 3:1-8.

    I am convinced and I can see that it does not do them anything if T. B. Joshua would continue in the “format” as he does what you think is Prophecy from God which I find more soothsaying than anything else. People will only listen if a Prophet of God does a warning about something and it comes to pass, they will fear the Lord. Any other way, they will just have guffaws of laughter as Madeleine says.

  24. Hi Madeline,

    Thanks for your response, and by generalising, – I was only looking at the whole picture- you yourself would agree that we cannot really talk about TBJ’s prophetic gift and ministry reffering to this very video alone, now can we?
    Still, I have Just two questions for you!

    1. tell me then, in the world where you live, where such prophetic words spoken by TBJ in its absolute rarity, very appreciable specificity, accuracy and precision doesn’t glorify God, the prophecies of God you’ve heard there spoken in recent times that suits your above criteria that you would confidently show to a skeptic.

    2. what then would you rather have happen to such a rare prophetic gift TbJ possesses?

    – Would you rather have it hidden and not shown to the world?
    – Or not at all spoken?
    – Or would you rather have it disappear from the face of the earth? –
    – Or would you rather have it contain more details?
    What exactly is the finality of your disposition towards them?

    • Most people do not have any idea of the existence of TBJoshua. There are a few people I know who are aware of him and most of them know of him in the context of the breaking of long term friendships and family relationships (my own) and saying that people are healed who then go on to die. How does that glorify God?
      (I am not talking about the experience of Giles’ mother I only came to know of that when Giles shared about it here I knew of two other people before then.)
      Any opinion that I may have about prophetic gifting is irrelevant regarding the example here as this has been mis-represented.

  25. @ Soe,

    Just watch this if you think there is “power” in T. B. Joshua’s church.

    “http://youtu.be/I0P7p2a02cs” Copy and paste in your browser. Do you have anything to say about this ?

  26. @ Soe,

    Although I don’t agree with what Reinhard Bonnke has done in the past and some claims he has done.

    There is one thing that I do agree with and that is what it is all about:

    GOD’s HEARTBEAT is SALVATION for Mankind, the greatest Miracle of ALL. Every other thing is dwarfed by it and that Is What Jesus came for. You, to be saved and to be with Him for eternity.

    To see what it is all about, Salvation that is, Soe, just watch this video and compare what T. B. Joshua is doing regarding salvation. I believe there is a huge difference.

    “http://youtu.be/MBtBHZtdU78” Copy and paste in your browser.

  27. @ Nanradi,

    you sure sound harsh saying I’m stubborn and all that- do you have to take it so personal? Ian said there is NO resemblance of TBJ’s prophecies to those of the Bible and I simply showed him the GLARING similarities, its not an issue of justifying anything but understanding through discussion.

    You keep asking me to compare the happenings in SCOAN to various videos as if that has become our yardstick for discernment – you yourself once said that such things are spiritually discerned, thus the only way we can find out the truth about them is by inquiring of God through HIS word and by HIS spirit? Not by asking others opinion or through videos or whatever. From my comments on this site you should know by now that I don’t “FEEL” i’m in the right league, as you wrongly assumed, I KNOW I am! At least from my little knowledge of scripture, Yet even at that I’m very much ready to have scales fall off my eyes if there’s any, unlike Ian who once said there’s no turning back on his opinion of tbj – still the problem is that since the beginning of this site till now neither you nor Ian, nor madelaine, nor Giles, nor any of you have been able to sufficiently prove from the scriptures that I am clearly in the wrong- still you insist I am by “standards” which are hardly anything to go by! And when I support my stand with scripture- they say its not “generally accepted” as if acceptance or rejection nullifies the scripture itself. As for the “enfield” prophecy which is the topic of discussion here – whatever judgement we pass on it would also be automatically and directly passed to those Christ gave – as the similarities are unmistakable as regards chronology, time & dates, specificity, and parable nature. Saying that those of Christ were for a purpose makes no difference, because nothing really happens for nothing!

    And The bit about salvation, I do agree with you and bonkke on that one- you very well know that is also the main focus of all TBJoshua’s messages and prayer – and not just getting saved but MAINTAINING our salvation by living holy lives- of which to really help the congregation to do requires the gift of prophecy- at least to individuals- to convict them of their sin when they sin, to edify and comfort them when they are lowly and depressed.

    Cheers*

    • @ Soe,

      After many posts, you still don’t know how to write my posting name, It’s N. A. N. A. R. D. I. or Nanardi. Perhaps you do it to mock me or in the hope you might annoy me or so ? Shrug.

      This perhaps shows to me and many of us that when you read S. C. R. I. P. T. U. R. E. you just have YOUR OWN I. N. T. E. R. P. E. R. T. A. T. I. O. N. whether it is Theological sound or not, you just D. O. N.’ T. C. A. R. E. Whatsoever.

      It could mean that you are do desperate in reaching for straws regarding spiritual issues and matters that are far away from Jesus’s true miracles, prophecies, etc. etc. that you go out on a limb about this T. B. Joshua to defend him of what he does. This is a sad, sad day.

      Also………… I spot in you that you are a bit upset or frustrated now because I address you with several matters that the comparison about any spiritual issue or thing you have quoted, (whether this is about Baptism, Communion, Prophecy, Miracles, Gifts of the Spirit, etc. etc.) is totally and completely left wanting from any angle when it is looked at it Psychologically, Biblically, Theologically, and Mentally. I am trying to tell you it goes against ever grain in my and other people’s spiritual encounters and all over the world accepted scriptural knowledge that I/we have had with God over many, many years. I think, you think that I was just born yesterday, am I now ?

      Wherever you get your conviction from, IT IS A. B. S. O. L. U. T. E. L. Y. NOT BY SIGHT as you keep festering upon, but by FAITH in CHRIST unconditionally and I can clearly see you keep telling yourself certain things that come out of the mouth and hands of T. B. Joshua HAS to COME from JESUS CHRIST and that you need a “point of contact at anytime of the day” in order to proof someone to believe. W. R. O. N. G. ! John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have NOT seen, and YET have believed. Hell will first freeze before I would accept anything from you about this riddled with Theological errors of scripture application, let me be clear about that. Because in my spirit, I can experience you are more deviating to lying about matters than be totally honest about this.

      I am 100% sure that you don’t have any spiritual comparison before you entered in this mess or spiritual arena. Yet when your mind has been completely brainwashed by dodgy, false theological convictions, I can’t see anything else that you have come to a place where you are very likely and I hope not for your sake in the league that now has received by God Himself the scriptural fulfillment of “And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:…. 2 Thessalonians 2:11”

      If this is so, there is nothing in this world that can change your mind about this because God Himself has allowed this to happen.

      For you information, I am appalled and disgusted by the Trinkets that T. B. Joshua has to resort to express Jesus Christ.

      And if I may be so crude to you, if you believe that God can express himself in all matters and things. If a or any prophet would offer you a pile of crap in the form of a religious attribute to hang your precious faith upon, would you accept it ? I sincerely hope not.

      Certainly you have not read and applied spiritually, Exodus 20:2-7, Certainly you have not read and applied spiritually, Galatians 3, Certainly you have not read, applied spiritually “Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made US free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should NOT obey the truth? This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. Galatians 5:1-9”

  28. @ Soe,

    And The bit about salvation, I do agree with you and bonkke on that one- you very well know that is also the main focus of all TBJoshua’s messages and prayer – and not just getting saved but MAINTAINING our salvation by living holy lives- of which to really help the congregation to do requires the gift of prophecy- at least to individuals- to convict them of their sin when they sin, to edify and comfort them when they are lowly and depressed.

    I wished I knew what the main focus is from T. B. Joshua’s messages. It seems to be that they are mainly focussed upon some sort of supernatural manifestations and the ooooh’s and aaah’s of T. B. Joshua is a man of God ?

    It that what God says as well according to you ? For by grace are ye SAVED through FAITH; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9

    and..

    John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    And yes prophecy is used for sweeping people in the Kingdom of God, but I really, really have extreme difficulties that you seem to apply this “enfield” prediction, is sweeping hordes of people in the Kingdom of God. Again I have to repeat what I said in former posts that I addressed to you. What does knowing ahead of time a burning Sony building do for the Kingdom of God ? I absolutely cannot see the same application as you do here that it is prophecy.

    Maybe this helps you to understand why I say this: I suggest that prophecy is often conditional even though the conditions may not be stated or recorded; and that it could even be that some prophecy therefore does not have a fulfilment, because those conditions aren’t met. There are other prophecies or predictions which will surely come true, but whose initial fulfilment is not possible because of a lack of human fulfilment of the conditions; but when these are fulfilled, then it will come true in principle, if not in every exact detail. There are other prophecies which are simply unconditionally going to come true. If for example Ezekiel’s prophecies about the temple were in this category, all the links with the restoration period would be purely incidental and not prophetic.

    Few examples for you to chew upon:

    – God told Israel straight in Judges 10:13: “Ye have forsaken me, and served other gods: wherefore I will deliver you no more”. But they begged Him, and He did. And likewise in Hosea, He said He would give them up completely, but just couldn’t bring Himself to do it.

    – “Now have I chosen and sanctified this house, that my name may be there for ever: and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually” (2 Chronicles 7:16). But this was conditional on Israel remaining in covenant relationship, for if they sinned, He would cast the temple out of His sight verse 20.

    – God’s promise that Israel would never again see Egypt was also conditional, and thus capable of being broken- as He Himself observed in Deuteronmy 28:68: “The Lord shall bring thee into Egypt again with ships, by the way whereof I spake unto thee, Thou shalt see it no more again”.

    In every prophetic word there you see God saying something and then there is something that affects the entire future of that situation. Because God first desired it was like He wanted it like that, but HAD to arrange it differently by the Prophetic according to the situation. Most prophecy for e.g. looks in that form and not in a form, Oh, I see a fire, It’s gushing out, I am trying to locate a place, umm I see the letters EN.

    Eh ???? This is a big difference of the format that you keep clinging upon, instead of looking and testing, if God really said this for….. 1. Salvation, Changing the future to create that condition for that, A command from God to heed to in so much it will work out well, the best or not for those that are involved into it…….I can go on like this, but I have not enough room to write…….again I have to say, nobody is benefitting from a Burning Sony Building….passed off as “prophetic”. I only hope and pray you will understand that someday.

  29. @ Nanardi

    Sorry about the mispelling of your name, believe me- it wasn’t intentional- yet there’s no need to pick a quarrel. Your response on August 22, 2011 at 11:17 am, seems more of a personal challenge to me than really addressing any issue, so it’ll be needless responding to the vast majority of it as you hurled at me. Still I will make a few things clear to you:

    1. We all on this site may not agree on everything yet we all have one purpose on this site: to establish what we believe to be true and for The truth to prevail, I believe we must display humility in willing to learn- and avoid statements like “hell must first freeze before I accept anything from you”.

    2. And these are the things I stand for- the WORD preached, LOVE Leading, the SICK healed, the OPPRESSED delivered from satanic forces that has held them down so long, PROPHECIES exposing the root cause of people’s problems and POWER to change these situations Irrespective of the medium used or the soul used. if Christ could express himself through “A DONKEY” to restrain a prophets madness or a” BRONZE snake” on a pole to heal, “a TWIG” to make an axhead float what can HE not use? Is it water? Stone? Fabrics? Shadow? Which of them are you really against HIM using?

    4. Degree of acceptance or rejection of a scripture does not authenticate or nullify it. Sometimes even when a scripture is grossly misunderstood in its context, with sufficient spread and high degree of acceptance, it becomes a “tradition” among men which is handed down for generations and after which, men would reject even the “true meaning” of that same scripture when they hear it- such was true of the pharisees, of which Jesus said..

    “thus making void the word of God by your tradition that you have HANDED DOWN. And MANY such things you do. ” – Mark 7:13.

    Take note; they HANDED IT DOWN – Which is why today there are much of tradition and culture practised in christendom today but less of scripture – That is why the vast majority of us, upon our numerous copies of the bible, prayer points, countless churches and pastors, do not record the same results the early disciples did-thus making us to see the book of Acts as mere history, when it is the pattern of what Christ wants his church to be today.

    As for the stuff you discern in your spirit- we are not in your spirit, let’s stick to the word and I believe in the end the truth about what you or I have discerned will be brought to light.

  30. @ Madelaine

    You seem rather indifferent regarding the answer to the two questions I asked you, after so vehemently declaring these prophecies as NOT of God, why choose to be indifferent now regarding what you would rather have become of them? Indifference is a sure indication of being unsure, you shouldn’t be if you are really sure of your claims which you seem to be.

    As for the mention of long term relationships and your friendship breaking- you said :

    There are A FEW people I know who are aware of him and MOST of them know of him in the context of the breaking of long term friendships and family relationships (MY OWN).

    I don’t get you here (especially the context of the words in caps) there’s so much incoherence in this statement that I don’t even know where to start-but so I won’t be misrepresenting you, try giving further clarity.

    And the bit about people dying after being declared healed-It rather seems to me that this is what you would have me believe, but I can easily reach thousands who were declared healed more than 15 years ago and are still hale and hearty till today of which many are most times brought to testify in the church with videos showing how very long ago they were prayed for and declared healed just to clear doubts like the one you’re raising now- why didn’t these ones die as well?

    My problem with you is that you ignore the overwhelming evidences of a ministry glorifying and championing the course of the God’s kingdom to focus on one, two or three stories that are even at present yet to be verified. Of course its only logical to understand that as a ministry which constantly exposes and destroys satans work, with satan standing no chance against the power of God there, the only feasible thing he can do is to lessen the havoc SCOAN is wrecking on its kingdom by discouraging people from going there- and stories like those we come across here seems to be the perfect tool he uses to accomplish such.

    • That quote from Madelaine only sounds incoherent with your added emphasis, it was totally coherent in her original message – not sure why it was tough for you to grasp!

      I can easily reach thousands who were declared healed more than 15 years ago and are still hale and hearty till today

      OK, that’s clearly nonsense – most people don’t even know 1000 people, let alone people who match your conditions. I tell you what, I’ll make it easy for you – you get 1 person to comment on this blog who was healed of a serious condition by TB Joshua 15 or more years ago and who’s condition never returned. Pointing to Emmanuel TV testimonies doesn’t count.

    • Hi Soe
      I was neither indifferent or uncertain in my responses to your questions.
      Also

      You have said:-
      “the bit about people dying after being declared healed-It rather seems to me that this is what you would have me believe”
      Yes – believe it – people have died after being declared healed by TBJ

      You have said that I:-
      “focus on one two or three stories that are even at present yet to be verified”

      In what way can a death be unverified?

      I do indeed hope that the accounts that have been posted on this site will discourage people from going to SCOAN.
      I hope that people reading them will find the love, and healing power and prophetic gifts that are a freely available because of the death and resurrection of Jesus.

      • @ Madeline and Ian

        Your belief is similar to that of Ian – Ian believes that there are some whose their healing do not stand the test of time-this seems to be the only outstanding point here unaddressed so let me address this once and for all-

        I wouldn’t want you to misunderstand me- I’m not saying it is impossible that few may have lost their healing-but If healing does not stand the test of time- the question we should ask ourselves is; whose fault is it?

        My question to you guys (Madelaine and Ian) is this: Would someone healed of the consequence of sin retain his/her healing upon returning to sin?

        For better clarity;

        Would someone healed of HIV he/she got through fornication remain healed even upon returning to fornication?

        For the select few who fall into this category-
        It disheartening and wicked that even upon returning to the sins that caused us our pains and contracting same or worse sicknesses than we were healed of, we would put the blame on the man of God!

        in case you didn’t know- healing is not just to be received but also to be maintained as well; just as salvation also needs to be maintained- : TB Joshua teaches that healing Is premised on one’s faith and maintained through continued obedience to God’s words. In his own words he said:

        “When we are healed, we are healed for a relationship with Jesus forever,” he said. “When we are blessed, we are blessed for a relationship with Jesus forever.

        “But when the relationship is broken, we lose whatever we receive.
        “Soon the relationship is broken, soon the blessing is lost.”

        Just as Jesus himself said in John 5:14
        “See you are healed, go and sin
        no more or else something worse will happen to you.

        Conclusively, Jesus declared healing as His children’s bread, not for unbelievers who want to remain so – let healing be for those who want to become servants of righteousness, not those who would see it as a relief granted them to continue as servants of sin. For the latter it is better not to even come for healing. In the light of the aforesaid, I sincerely believe that many who say man of God, heal me! ought to first say; man of God teach me God’s word so that I can faithfully cooperate for my recovery. For the latter there is no other scriptural solution so they should remain on medication. Which the Scoan does give room for! Yes! i’m very much aware that the Scoan does not encourage HIV- infected people and others to stop taking their medication after visiting Scoan. Those that stopped using it did so at their own will, when the symptoms of their sicknesses disappeared and they tested negative at their doctors’
        In TB Joshua’s own words he said: “Everyone receives according to the measure of his faith, So we cannot ask anybody to stop taking medicine.

      • Soe, we’ve been through this warped way of thinking before on this post: https://tbjoshuawatch.wordpress.com/2011/04/28/the-miracles-of-tb-joshua/
        In brief, what you’re saying is that if you don’t get healed, it’s your fault, NOT TB Joshua’s.
        Even if TB Joshua says you are healed and it turns out you are not, it’s because of YOUR sin or YOUR lack of faith. Never because of TB Joshua.
        And don’t forget that EVERYBODY sins (whether or not you include the MOG in this category) so everybody gives possible reasons for having their healing revoked.
        So TB Joshua has complete impunity to tell desperate people they are healed, without any possible negative ramifications for him or his reputation if they’re not.

        And that final quote clearly suggests that by continuing to take your medication, you are showing a lack of faith. And without faith, there is no healing. So by all means, keep taking your medication. But if you don’t get healed, you’ll know that it was your lack of adequate faith that was the obstacle.

        Soe, this poisonous warped thinking has caused unimaginable suffering. Can you imagine having cancer, being told you were healed by TB Joshua, and getting a scan and seeing it was still there? As well as coming to terms with a terminal illness, you will never stop blaming yourself for being unworthy and insufficiently faithful to be healed.

        And in case you missed it, yes I do know people this has happened to, and the number of cases I’ve heard of keeps growing as people come out of the woodwork through this site.

      • Soe, you keep changing tune on this issue. First you claim you could contact literally thousands of people who were healed by TB Joshua and are still in good health 15 years later, this then changes to “I can reach many who have been healed through the SCOAN archives” (no mention of longevity of healing), and now you’re basically admitting that a lot of people aren’t healed, but it’s their fault!

      • It is the death of Jesus on the cross and resurrection from the dead that enables us through grace by faith to have a relationship with Jesus for ever.

  31. @ Soe,

    Nobody intended to create a quarrel. But if you want to address someone by a name, then it would be nice that you spell it right. Because “Naradi” is a tool company and I was thinking that you thought of me being a tool.

    I also spelled “Interpretation” wrong deliberately so you can see with your eyes how that is working when the brain is explaining things to you for understanding.

    Are you convinced about things coming to light, when you so much deviate from one thing to another and try to be sly in a certain way of questioning.

    I notice that you (this is my observation) desperately want to believe and being convinced that Jesus Christ Himself tells a minister to use:

    1. Water, Stone, Cloth, Spit, Mud, Crosses, Chewing gum, Banana’s, USB sticks, Trees, Sand, Ding Bats, Paper Aeroplanes, and you name it and fill it in, for to EXPRESS Himself ? Just ask yourself this, Is my Jesus not bigger than that ? While He is the KING of Kings and the LORD of Lords ?

    Where does the bible teach and I have been addressing this before, that this was a practice in continuum which is happening in the SCOAN now ? This is what we, I have tried to tell you over and over again. The coin still has not dropped, I guess.

    Soe, read this slowly, “There is n’t…….” Go ask anyone that knows their bible from cover to cover.

    Ministers in SCOAN keep telling themselves and others “because” T. B. Joshua says so, this is a practice by using “materials” Ad Nauseum somehow.

    What I see is, when T. B. Joshua and others who are ministering, they have to shake their hands/body as if they are dispensing something (especially from their midrif) or the person that is being dealt with is remote controlled. T. B. Joshua and the wise men do not want to be touched there at. This, I have observed which some have tried to do. He/they twarts and dodges the hands of those that try. Explain.

    My interpretation is now, (I know that this has be questioned before to T. B. Joshua) well I must find a way to hide this, so I am resorting to all those, water, cloth, wristband, watches, and other trinkets so it does no show it so much. Eventhoug the wise men do not not so much, it still when observed and spiritually tested, it is they are “dispensing” something and a lot of screaming and yelling goes with it. Also in it’s application it is first distracting the person with a story and then aggressively screaming to get the person off guard so spiritual doors might open to enter in, but the question is WITH WHAT ?

  32. @ Soe,

    Why is it and you still don’t answer my numerous other questions I did to you before, that every ministry that Jesus did, which is THE standard to go by and not any man’s standard or way of doing.

    Jesus ministry goes in the following way: 1. Laying on of hands, A word, To be sent, very OCCASIONALLY using things/materials to accomplish healing (which people in SCOAN now exploit again and again to ad nauseum), Cast out demons without allowing them to talk or go in conversation with but rather says, Be Quiet and come out of him/her ! and that is the end of it, Centurions that come to Jesus and believe just one word in Faith and go home. A women that just “touches” Him at the hem of his clothes, A prostitute that is justified by Him but IS COMMANDED NOT to SIN anymore as condition for that, A woman that begged for her daughter to be delivered/healed the anology of bread/crumbs/dogs. And many more things.

    To be continued in next post
    But NOWHERE in the bible Jesus, nor the disciples or apostle Paul do ANY commands of using materials/ things to express Jesus or God. It just happens to happen in the moment in time. It’s not repeated over and over and over again. Secondly, I can see that this water is elevated to a level of promotion in SCOAN as in, Come to SCOAN, we apply the water, it is the answer to ALL your things or problems. That is the appalling and disgusting thing about it, if you must know.

    As if the Anointing and God’s Spirit can be dispensed at every time of the day like this ? How wrong and how unbiblical this kind of practice is ! But that does not come down to you as being so. With this I mean being stubborn, not listening, not testing whether this is so as a true Berean researching in the Scriptures. You go as, The prophet says so, that iswhy we do so, I wonder if it ever comes to a place when he would say, Jump in a Lake in Geneva in Switzerland and swim to the middle and do three summersalts and you will be Ok. Or take one toe hang it up a wire at the ceiling and you will be delivered. How extreme does it have to become Soe, when one says that God can use anything to achieve His goal ? Should one not start to ask where one’s faculties have gone down the drain somewhere ?

    I was saying about the shaking of the hands of T. B. Joshua, do you think this is a normal administering in spiritual matters ? This you see in the occult a lot and those that practice it, also you see it in those that are in Kundalini, Shakti Pat practicing guru’s, (you still have not answered this). Again the question crops up, where do the powers come from and how do you Soe, Assess, Test, Investigate, Line up to the Word of God, these ways of practicing ? What grade or graduation, authority do you have to be an qualified Assessor of spiritual matters/healing/deliverance that are not the same as we see in the bible happening ? Or are you just go by, well it gives some results, it must be FROM GOD Himself. How can you be sure, if you came from a place that never had such matters in the first place, because I that’s thing I am convinced about.

    Why is it, Soe that EVERY ministering event it’s so called “demonic”, or demonic infested ? As if there is no other way that someone can have a problem ? Do you really believe that behind every problem there is a Demon ? Soe, seriously, perhaps behind under your keyboard that just broke down might be a demon sitting with a screwdriver and sabotaged it. Don’t you see how wacky it all will become if you see everywhere Satan ? Satan might be sitting in Timbuktu having an orgy or something with a 3000 witches in the Zambesi river (called Waterworld Africa inc.) that have mysterious Ogbanjes there. Seriously these are the crazy stories that I hear going around and I am in a curl of laughing when I hear this folly.

    What about spirit of snake, crocodile, elephant, monkey, Mami Wata, and you name it. Could you tell me what job demons had before they fell and run off with Satan ? Did they turn into snakes, crocodiles, elephants, monkies ?

    How about spirits of humans that are so called found in people that are 300 year old, which I see T. B. Joshua telling us ? Since when are spirits allowed to Go back into Human beings ?

    Have you not read ? Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

    and

    Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

    Nothing contradicting here is it ? Soe. Much of the practices just don’t add up, Soe, I hope you will start to see that now.

    • @ Soe,

      I want to add this as well about the spirits that are in other peoples bodies, this is the explanation that is biblical sound and applicable. Soe. If you just disregard this and only look at the spiritual manifestations that T. B. Joshua does and go after that, you really must ask yourself just one thing. If these things he says are not biblical, can it be that other things are not biblical as well ?

      Anyways here is the right explanation for Hebrews 9:27

      As it is appointed…….. It is laid before them by the Divine decree: Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return. Unto men generally, during the course of the present world, not all men as some falsely quote; for Enoch and Elijah have not died, and those that shall be alive at the day of judgment shall not die, but be changed.

      But after this the judgment – They shall die but once, and be judged but once, therefore there is no metempsychosis, no transmigration from body to body; judgment succeeds to dying; and as they shall be judged but once, they can die but once.

      Unless you believe in Reincarnation, there is no such thing in the bible that spirits of humans return in other peoples bodies or family members. Period. And if you believe in the Last Authoritative Voice of God in the Bible then you cannot have any excuse about this matter, but I would say, ask T. B. Joshua himself what he has to say on this. I really would like to see how he wriggles himself out of this one.

  33. @ Nanardi,
    Some of The questions you have raised here are very important-that in my opinion merit a post of their own, perhaps tbjoshuawatch would consider this as its one of the questions running through the minds of many regarding TBJ’s style of praying for people, yet you seem to mention so much about other religions, I told you before -its needless going into details of other religions, let’s stick to the WORD”!, so going WITH the BIBLE, let me respond quickly to your questions one at a time as time permits me:

    As for the “stretching or shaking of hands” to heal you asked:

    “I was saying about the shaking of the hands of T. B. Joshua, do you think this is a normal administering in spiritual matters” ?

    Yes!, You would agree with me if you carefully study the bible that almost all of the great miracles in Egypt were wrought through Moses and Aaron’s stretching of hands as God instructed…

    And the LORD said to Moses, “Say to Aaron, ‘Take your staff and STRETCH OUT YOUR HAND over the waters of Egypt,… so that they may become blood… ‘” – Exodus 7:19

    So Aaron STRETCHED OUT HIS HAND over the waters of Egypt, and the frogs came up and covered the land of Egypt. – Exodus 8:6

    Then the LORD said to Moses, “STRETCH OUT YOUR HAND toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, a darkness to be felt. ” – Exodus 10:21

    Then the LORD said to Moses, “STRETCH OUT YOUR HAND over the sea, that the water may come back upon the Egyptians, upon their chariots, and upon their horsemen. ” – Exodus 14:26. … and so on…

    Yet It is NOTEWORTHY to mention that it wasn’t the stretched hand of the prophets that wrought the miracles but the outstretched arm of God as Moses himself affirms:

    Who is like you O LORD ….You STRETCHED OUT YOUR RIGHT HAND; the earth swallowed them. – Exodus 15 :11-12

    Thus they stretched out their hands physically as an expression of God’s unseen mighty hand stretched spiritually. As shown also in the scriptures where when moses hands were raised towards the battle, the unseen hand of God was clearly fighting for the isrealites but when his hands were lowered- the unseen hand of God too was withdrawn-and the isrealites began loosing the battle

    “Whenever Moses. “HELD UP HIS HAND”, Israel prevailed, and whenever he “LOWERED HIS HAND”, Amalek prevailed. – Exodus 17:11

    It is therefore logical to believe that The stretching forth of hands towards or over an object or person in prayer-was a method commonly used by some prophets in the Bible, that even Naaman the Syrian who wasn’t an isrealite was well acquainted with it and expected it to be done to him as well when he consulted Elisha:

    “But Naaman was angry and went away, saying, “Behold, I thought that he would surely come out to me and stand and call upon the name of the LORD his God, and “WAVE HIS HAND OVER THE SPOT” and cure the leprosy”.. – II Kings 5:11

    HE COULDN’T HAVE EXPECTED OR THOUGHT OF THE PROPHET USING A METHOD HE HAD NEVER SEEN OR HEARD THEM USING!!!

    Note from the verses above: the “STRETCHING OUT, STRETCHING TOWARDS, HOLDING UP, RAISING, LOWERING AND WAVING OF HANDS” over an object or person in prayer which is a perfect fit with what TBJ and the wisemen do today Being prophets of THE MOST HIGH GOD. And not just them if I may add, but also some other Pastors and prophets can be seen also stretching hands in like manner- as it was, so it is.

  34. @ Soe,

    “But Naaman was angry and went away, saying, “Behold, I thought that he would surely come out to me and stand and call upon the name of the LORD his God, and “WAVE HIS HAND OVER THE SPOT” and cure the leprosy”.. – II Kings 5:11″

    Totally wrong interpretation. This was done in the occult and THIS is what Naaman KNEW from where he came from and thought it would be the same with Elisha. It is exactly as I said in another post about Mesmerism, Anton Mesmer did the waving and shaking of hands which was later called Mesmerism.

    Soe, Elisha DID NOT do such a thing, did he now ? Prove me in the bible where it was known that he waved his hands over anyone.

    What does the KJV exactly say ? But Naaman was wroth, and went away, and said, Behold, I thought, He will surely come out to me, and stand, and call on the name of the LORD his God, and STRIKE his hand over the place, and recover the leper. 2 Kings 5:11

    STRIKE, not Shaking or waving violently and continually, not remote controlling a person and whip them all over the place as I see happening in the SCOAN. Not As they do in KI or Chi projection in that video I gave a few posts back. Just Imagine Jesus doing such a thing. I am sure it would have been recorded like that in the bible. Instead it says, He laid hands upon them and they were ALL healed. No knocking over, no bouncing, no remote control from one end to the room or the church and especially no screaming and shouting. Just laying Hands and say “be healed” or your faith has healed you. That’s it.

    What a bizarre interpretation from your side.

    I guess you are with that virulent NIV translation where even in there complete verses are omitted or mistranslated !!!! Or even worse the deity of Christ. How awful. Just read it here:

    Matthew: 1:25, “…first- born son,”; 8:29, “Jesus, thou Son of God?”; 16:20, “Jesus the Christ”; 24:36, “My Father”; NIV reads “the Father”; 27:54, “Truly this was the Son of God”, NIV footnote says, “OR A SON”. There is a world of difference in these two statements. Mark: 1:1, “Jesus Christ, the Son of God”, NIV footnote says, “Some MSS omit the Son of God”; 9:24, “Lord, I believe”; 15:39, “Truly this man was the Son of God”, NIV footnote says, “OR A SON”.

    Is Jesus “A son” or “The only begotten Son of God” ?

  35. This is the right interpretation, Soe,

    It says “Wash yourself seven times.” This interesting enactment begins with a man who was not an Israelite. He was a Syrian, of a high position in his country. He was a general in the army of Syria, a country that Israel feared at the time. It was so that this man was a leper. We don’t know how he became a leper, but I believe it was for the purpose of God here. Naaman the general was a typical man without Elohim. He was successful, admired, famous, but the sickness called sin is there. He was stricken with Leprosy.

    Leprosy is a disease where the flesh gradually destroys itself, a clear symbol of the effects of sin and being governed by the flesh. No matter how accomplished a person is in a worldly sense, sin’s consequences are unavoidable. In the house of Naaman there was a maid, a girl who had been taken captive from Israel. She kept her FAITH even in that distant place. When she learned of her master’s sickness, she suggested to his wife that Naaman visit the “prophet who is in Samaria,” that is, Elisha, so that he would be healed. This maidservant of God illustrates for us the story of the faithful church, in her struggle in the process of salvation. Like a type of the Church today. I know that people need blessing, but do not know salvation or the Savior. Naaman first tried to write to the unfaithful king of Israel, who of course had nothing to offer. Elisha heard about it and invited Naaman to visit him, so Naaman set out.

    Before reaching Elisha’s house, however, the prophet sent a message to him, “Wash seven times in the Jordan River.” This was strange and weird to Naaman, who was accustomed to religion where man is in charge and the deity does whatever man wants. to point to the Savior. Elisha knew what he was talking about. So should you, Soe. But unfortunately you are not.

  36. What is so interesting about this story is that it describes seven things Naaman said and did in reaction – showing seven FLESHLY attitudes that needed to be cleansed. He really needed to wash seven times.

    First, Naaman thought, “He should come out to me. The prophet shall come out and meet me.” Yet the prophet did not leave his house. When he said, “he will surely come out to me,” he shows his own vanity. The prophet should come out and receive him with all the honor due him. After all, he was a very important person (a leper of great importance!). He was a general and had money. He could pay any amount of money that was asked him. Vanity. That’s the first dive into the river.

    Whoever does not dive like this will never receive deliverance. The leprosy of sin continues. He forgot for a moment that his empty religious concepts had failed to heal him of his leprosy.

    “And stand.” This is the pride of man. Naaman thought he deserved honor, to have people of lower rank (like this poor prophet) to stand in his presence. This is spiritual presumption. “And call on the name of God.” He was used to giving orders to his false Elohim back home. He would tell the prophets of HIS religion what to do. His pagan priests received their wages only if they preached the message Naaman wanted. That is man’s spiritual presumption. This doesn’t have any place in the work of truth.

    “Wave his hand over the spot.” People want the holy man to wave his hand over the disease; but Elisha was very far from the leper. Religions get too concerned about things that are not of FAITH.

    Religious services may claim to be spiritual and look like spiritual. That is what man likes. Naaman liked his religion, and this was his understanding. He was raised that way, and he had great difficulty leaving these concepts behind. The thought of Elisha coming out and “WAVE HIS HANDS” as you think it was. Religion thinks that it is necessary to touch people a certain way when you pray for them, or to say special words at a special moment. They act like the power of God works the same as magic, working through special phrases or gestures. Wrong, You are healed by faith, you are saved by faith, you only can Please God with FAITH. Hebrews 11:6.

    Therefore I have difficulty to accept and go with your theological application of the Shaking or waving violently of the hands of T. B. Joshua. Because I think it is completely wrong and out of context.

    • @ Soe,

      I have taken a bit of time to answer again your conviction about the “waving” of the hands by a or any prophet.

      According to “All Things in the Bible: An Encyclopedia of the Biblical world”, By Nancy M. Tischler, Ellen Johnston McHenry it states. Page 380

      Probably because the Hebrews were infected by Egyptian thinking…….

      Among the earlier prophets, Notably ELISHA, some of the miraculous works verge on magic: The waving over the body of Naaman was a COMMON feature of Magical Procedures, an attempt to diffuse the otherworldly quality by which the magic worked (Theodore Gaster 1969) 520.

      Soe, THE LATER PROPHETS CLEARLY CONDEMNED ANY MAGICAL PRACTICES AMONG THE PEOPLE. Isaiah noted that the children of the house of Jacob were “full of the superstitions of the EAST”, by practicing DIVINATION, like the Philistines. Isaiah 2:6. Ezekiel warned of “false visions” and “divination” Ezekiel 13:23. And the prophet Micah told of a day it will go dark for them. Micah 3:6.

      Secondly according to the “Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament, Volume 9” Page 297 by Helmer Ringgren it says:

      II. Usage:

      1. Verb, The basic meaning of the hiphil is to waves one’s hand or set and implement in motion.

      Hands can be waved for various purposes. Naaman EXPECTED Elisha to “wave his hand over the (afflicted) spot. Leviticus 13:19 (2 Kings 5:11) This is usually interpreted as a healing gesture, possibly of MAGICAL origin. Milgrom cites HIttite and Akkadian RITUALS of Purification and Exorcism that involved moving a SACRIFICIAL OFFERING back and forth. Please don’t go in denial again Soe, Denial is not a river in Egypt Ok ?

      This is what Naaman knew from where he came from and expected Elisha to do the same. BUT….. He did not. Nor is there any scripture where you see Elisha doing such a gesture or way of doing. He does other strange things, but waving is not one of them.

    • So whereever you translate this in your mind as a common practice in Israel is for me a mystery here and is clearly false in it’s application. Hence my proof again that what T. B. Joshua does is not done in the Bible as a common practice. You know that, I know that most of the time he does such application. I have seen it, you have seen it, many others have seen it. I call upon witness who can confirm that this is so…

      How can this be related to the work or flowing of the Holy Spirit ? Soe, these manifestations are done when Kundalini is projected on another person and when Ki, Chi and Reiki practices are done.These are practices from out of the EAST, Asia, China, Japan, Thailand, Indonesia etc. etc. Are you saying this has it’s origin in God ?

      Secondly you think these are gory things and that I should not keep myself busy with it, (fyi I do not) but as knowing first hand about these practices because of my past and the people that I knew back then, I can clearly know by discernment, whether by the natural eye as well spiritually, that the Jury is out there regarding the ORIGIN of T. B. Joshua’s powers or anyone who do the same in this way.

      If you would ask him about the origin of his powers, I wonder what answer you would get ? It is likely he would say from God, but the proof is in the pudding that most of those manifestations are absolutely NOT similar of what Jesus did or what is written about Him doing ministry in the Bible My Standard and that of anyone when it comes to healing, deliverance, miracles, prophecy. Ever heard about a false or fake Rolex, Soe ? It looks like it, It smells like it, but it is NOT the genuine product of what we know of the Holy Spirit.

      I am convinced you are not asking any of those questions to him, likely because you do not want to embarrass yourself. Soe, you are not on your own with that, most people just don’t ask, they are just going by, Oh he/she said it, I go with it. After all, I am on their payroll so I should not ask too much questions to the Boss why he does the things he does, but just meekly follow ANYTHING they say or do. WRONG !!!!

  37. @ Nanardi,

    Totally wrong interpretation. This was done in the occult and THIS is what Naaman KNEW from where he came from and thought it would be the same with Elisha.

    If you say I’m wrong then tell me, If this was the practice of their occult in Syria to cure Illnesses, Why wasn’t the method used to cure him in Syria?

    2. “It is exactly as I said in another post about Mesmerism, Anton Mesmer did the waving and shaking of hands which was later called Mesmerism”.

    Why do you keep going into details about what you’ve seen from other religions? This is what puts me off the most about you, Other religions may do some things similar to what we Christians do like praying to their gods, sacrificing for them, meditation, etc does that now make us like them?

    Idol worshipers use clay to mould their idols so when Jesus now used mud mixed with saliva to heal,does that make him like them?

    Idol worshipers also use bronze to mould their idols And some in form of animals like snakes, Moses did something similar when he hung a bronze snake on a pole does that now makes Moses an idolater?

    Stop making comparison based on what you see in other religions but what you see in the scripture.

    If you find fault with the last scripture I quoted, what of all the others- as regards Moses and Aaron? I’m sorry to say but it doesn’t speak well of you and makes you really hard to talk to when you turn a blind eye to scriptural evidence as overwhelming as this and I myself I’m not willing to answer the question of anyone who does not accept scriptural evidence as a support for an answer.

  38. @ Soe,

    “Idol worshipers use clay to mould their idols so when Jesus now used mud mixed with saliva to heal,does that make him like them?

    Idol worshipers also use bronze to mould their idols And some in form of animals like snakes, Moses did something similar when he hung a bronze snake on a pole does that now makes Moses an idolater?”

    Soe, I would love to go into that with you @ length, but I do not want to take this forum look like a continual skirmish between Soe and Nanardi about scriptures what you think is a pathway of justifying any (supernatural) deeds of yourself or that of T. B. Joshua.

  39. @ Ian

    Judging from your last two posts, You’re fast developing the habit of misrepresentation, I did not say I know 1000 people, I said I can easily reach many of those who have been healed and my best bet would be through the scoan archives which you have counted out of the picture. What other evidence is greater than documentary evidence? Are you now suggesting that verbal evidence is better? Please! Twenty testimonies of people on this site whether to my favour or against it is worth less than 1 well documented video evidence, as if we can guarantee the legitimacy of a testimony by just words alone. of course I do know of several people personally, but they would see this site as a pharisees site, or worst still a blasphemous site that they wouldn’t even consider my request. I on the other hand see it as an avenue to exchange ideas and gain understanding through discussion.

    • I think you’re fast developing a habit of misreading what I post, but never mind. The problem with the Emmanuel TV evidence is as follows:

      1. TV is an easily manipulated and deceptive medium thanks to clever editing. This site has shown in previous posts that EmTV engage in deceptive editing practises. Personally I would take a testimony written solely by the one testifying (as you have on this site) more seriously than a video testimony broadcast on the channel run by the so called healer.
      2. Most, if not all of the EmTV testimonies are immediate testimonies. We know that TBJ and SCOAN teach that your healing is dependent on your faith, and your faith is kept strong by your confession or your words, so people who are desperate to receive healing will be encouraged to testify that they have received it as an act of faith, even if the symptoms remain (I know this, I’ve seen more than one person go through this exact experience and subsequently die). These immediate testimonies are worthless, what would tell a more accurate story would be to hear from people 1 or more years after the healing
      3. EmTV is far from independent. If I sent you a video with some mates of mine telling you that I’d healed them of cancer or raised them from the dead, would you take my word for it or expect independent verification?

      Does that make it clearer why I would discount anything from the SCOAN archive as credible evidence of genuine healing?

  40. @ Nanardi,

    You said:

    “Just Imagine Jesus doing such a thing. I am sure it would have been recorded like that in the bible. Instead it says, He laid hands upon them and they were ALL healed. No knocking over, no bouncing, no remote control from one end to the room or the church and ESPECIALLY NO SCREAMING AND SHOUTING.”

    After reading some of your statements like the one above I wonder if you have read your bible thoroughly before commenting so certainly…

    And the unclean spirit, convulsing him and CRYING OUT with a LOUD VOICE, came out of him. – Mark 1:26

    And they brought the boy to him. And when the spirit saw him, immediately it convulsed the boy, and HE FELL ON THE GROUND and ROLLED ABOUT, FOAMING AT THE MOUTH. – Mark 9:20

    And after CRYING OUT and CONVULSING HIM TERRIBLY, it came out, and the boy was like a corpse, so that most of them said, “He is dead. ” – Mark 9:26

    Even with the apostles:

    For unclean spirits, CRYING OUT WITH A LOUD VOICE , came out of many who had them, and many who were paralyzed or lame were healed. – Acts 8:7

    You also said elsewhere that:
    “Jesus ministry goes in the following way: …Cast out demons WITHOUT ALLOWING THEM TO TALK OR GO IN A CONVERSATION WITH”

    I MAINTAIN THAT THIS IS NOT ENTIRELY TRUE AS THE BIBLE SAYS THUS:

    And Jesus asked him, “What is your name? ” He replied, “My name is Legion, for we are many. ” – Mark 5:9

    And he begged him earnestly not to send them out of the country. – Mark 5:10

    and they begged him, saying, “Send us to the pigs; let us enter them. ” – Mark 5:12.

    This is clearly a conversation with demons which you said Jesus did NOT ALLOW!

    Your knowledge of scripture is clearly very rusty, though you claim to have a sound knowledge of it, I believe you should spend more time reading your bible than learning about the in depth gory details about the methods of other religions which is of no value to any true believer, of with how much you know and keep going on a limb about them- I would need even a bit of convincing now that I’m actually discussing with a fellow Christian.

  41. Soe,

    I have no problems with demons coming out SCREAMING AND SHOUTING AND make some people ROLLING a bit like Jesus did during His deliverance sessions.

    I have problems with the ministers SCREAMING and SHOUTING and Whipping people around from one corner of a building to another and keep yelling at them at the top of their voice. For what ? Do you think demons are deaf ? Even some are saying to them Come here !, Come Here !, as if Demons are their errand boys and do humans bidding.

    Again you misrepresent me with all kinds of things that I did not say about Deliverance.

    Soe, I am not against deliverance, healing, miracles, prophecy, etc. I am against things, behaviour, demon interrogation to show to the world and make it to a freakshow, people that claim the word of God is the anointing water and that the blood of Jesus is in the anointing water, etc. etc. which are definitely NOT in the Bible as an excuse to practice in a Ministry. I hope you will read Matthew 7:21-23 thoroughly for that.

    And…

    Only ONCE Jesus asked for the Name in the case of a man possessed with Legion which was a group of demons referred to in the Bible. ONCE. I don’t know if you know what ONCE means, Soe.

    There was a reason why He did it like that, but there is no space enough here to explain that to you anyways and I have no time.

    Again you take one thing that was done only ONCE and go with that as if it was a ministry approved by Jesus Himself in continuum in a repetitive manner, which is not so.

  42. @ Soe,

    If you think “Asking the Demons their names” is a ministry instituted by Jesus.

    Why does the SCOAN not have a herd of 2000 pigs/swine and a nearby lake to complete such deliverance’s ?

  43. Soe,

    ” I would need even a bit of convincing now that I’m actually discussing with a fellow Christian.”

    Soe, It’s not being about a being a fellow Christian, (many call themselves christian, but do their own things in life) it’s about being a follower of Yeshua and doing the will of God Almighty with everything surrendered to Him and lead by His Spirit.

    Also regarding me as a fellow believer: I exhort thee, Soe, To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men. For we/you ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:2-7

    Okay !!

  44. Mike
    I personally would like to say that i used to believ all this healing and other miraculous stuff but i think we people have been blinded. It only takes us to think logically, put all your religious beliefs aside and lets examine the fatcs.

    firstly it is very posible to predict the future using the same technic its called cold reading> You can obviously see how he makes statements that can be personiliased but are vague if they where really from God (not to say i understand him)then i think they would be clear. The predictions are true but also vague so that in which ever way you see it the seem to predict the message. This is practiced by many mentalists and illusionists such as David blaine, derren brown.

    No body has ever been clearly healed, by this i mean that nobody has ever been healed and examined medically to prove the healing by an independat doctor/professionals

    My grandmother got healed and she was walking with a walking stick for four years…..you would think after this i would believe right…..i have known my grandmother all her life it wasnt that she couldnt walk, she actually could walk and used a walking stick…her walk hasnt changed any bit except she doesnt use the walking stick any more..she believes she got healed though…and any way the schocker is that the real disease isnt that she cant walk but obesity, this is the real disease this is what has caused all her problems…so why didnt they cure that.

    • my sister and my mother both had cancer. My sister’s cancer was years ago and the doctors said she was a gonner. But she was healed at some other church event.
      My mother’s cancer was also serious because she listened to TBJ about having been healed.
      She’s dead.

      My sister though is alive and well, 5 kids. The doctors back then admitted they had no explanation why this happened.

      • Firstly, i would like to say i am sorry for your loss.Giles i personally dont think their is any religious healing and it is yet to be proven to me.The doctors are not always right either,with all due respect to your family i think people like TBJ take advantage of these situations in order to claim they can heal, thousands of people visit the place and its not unheard of for doctors to make mistakes or for people to live through fatal diseases. I aslo dont think that God would take your mother’s life and live your sister. I think people try to attach meaning to random events that happen leaving room for people to exploit them.I

  45. Entering the fray slightly late, I thought I would add my six pennorth. In terms of the riots ‘prophecy’ I immediately thought of poor Jonah – God didn’t tell him to go to a place beginning with an ‘NI’ did he? But when told to go to Ninevah, Jonah’s reason for not wanting to go is that he knew the people would repent and the prophecy would not come true. Poor Jonah! A church I was in received a prophecy which did come to pass, because in part people refused to believe it was true (no one realised that one of the pastors was indulging in a little extra marital affair conducted on church premises and funnily enough he didn’t own up to it). As others have said, a prophecy is a statement designed to elicit a change in behaviour and therefore I do not think that TBJ’s statement is a prophecy.

    His statement relates to a fire, not riots – I think if God was going to send a prophecy about the riots it would have talked about the causes of the riots – the issues within British society that desperately need addressing, it would have talked about riots and not a big building being on fire – the fire was virtually incidental to the riots – 4 people were murdered during the riots, surely loss of life is more important than loss of a building and God would have brought that to light. I’m sorry, but I think that claiming this statement is a prophecy of the riots is a sick exploitation of the real suffering that many thousands of people have been through, the families that have been left mourning the loss of loved ones, the families made homeless and the people who have lost their jobs and their businesses.

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