TB Joshua, a false Christ?

For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. (Matt 24:24)

Most TB Joshua supporters will immediately raise their hackles at the above verse. It has been used against him several times before, most notably in the Deception of the age video. In this post, we will look at several reasons why some may consider TB Joshua a false Christ.

What is a false Christ?

The original greek word used in the verse above is pseudochristos. The first part of the word (pseudo) refers to something that is  false, fraudulent, or pretending to be something it is not. The second half (christos) literally means “anointed one”, and gives us the word “Christ”. A false Christ is anyone who takes the place of Christ as a mediator between man and God. The bible tells us “there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Tim 2:5). We believers can have a direct relationship with God through Jesus Christ, we don’t need a priest, a man of God, a deliverer – we have Christ, who is all those things to us and more.

In the following paragraphs we will examine some evidence that we believe shows that TB Joshua’s ministry takes on a “christ like” position in the lives of his followers.

His words are considered equal to the words of God

First of all, have a click through the Emmanuel TV website. It is littered with quotes from TB Joshua (I counted 13), but it has less than half that number of bible verses. The quotes are generally harmless enough, but why the emphasis on TB Joshua’s quotes? There’s not another major ministry we’re aware of that puts such an emphasis on the words of one man to the detriment of scripture.

Ex disciple Gareth reports that “A lot of the time in a disciples life is spent studying his “notes”, that is TB Joshua’s writings. Any visitor to the church will testify to seeing disciples reading and copying out these notes into the early hours of the morning. Disciples regard these notes as equal in authority to the Bible”, Giles talks about the TB Joshua’s “quotable quotes” which disciples are expected to season their speech with. In his sermon “With such power”, TB Joshua himself says “In order to exercise such power, the man of God must be infallible. The baptism of the Holy Spirit gives this infallibility. Whatever he says is always complete and correct; whatever he writes is infallibly accurate.” This view is clearly supported by avid supporter and commenter on this site Soe, who tells us that “every word [TB Joshua] speaks is spirit-filled- and words become Gods word when they are affected by the Holyspirit”. (link)

He is the healer

Before his fans cry out “but he is constantly saying ‘I am not the healer, but I know the healer’”, let’s look at the reality.

The big craze amongst TB Joshua fans right now is his anointing water. We get many people stumble upon this site searching Google for ways to get the anointing water. This is being shipped all around the world and supposedly responsible for many healings and deliverances. What this anointing water represents is a dependence on TB Joshua, in place of Jesus. The water is a way of spreading TB Joshua’s anointing, so if it is truly Christ who is the healer, throw away the anointing water!

Finally, consider the title of the official Emmanuel TV blog: “Distance is not a barrier”. Distance from whom? Considering Christians believe that God is Omnipresent, it can’t be referring to God. TB Joshua on the other hand is not omnipresent, he is based in Nigeria and Emmanuel TV is his main vehicle for getting his message across. Now look at the banner image – it is a picture of TB Joshua with his hands raised towards the viewer as if he is praying for them. I think based on these observations it is quite clear that the word distance is referring to distance from TB Joshua. If Jesus is the healer, then distance from TB Joshua is an irrelevant point. It is only if TB Joshua is seen as the healer that this tag line makes any sense.

He is worshiped

The most obvious example of this is the video posted recently on this site of people at his church singing a song of praise to “TB Joshua, the man of God” which includes the line “everything about him is good”. This took place at his church SCOAN, and was proudly shown to a visiting TV crew.

Unfortunately this kind of idolatry is not uncommon amongst his flock. While it’s not fair to hold TB Joshua responsible for all the views of his followers, there is no evidence that these extreme views are being challenged or refuted by SCOAN. Gareth recounts how someone had a dream that TB Joshua was the younger brother of Jesus (which of course makes him the son of God!), far from being corrected for this seriously errant view, the testimony was filmed and played back to all foreign visitors!

A quick browse through the TB Joshua blogs and you quickly come across some real shockers. For example:

TB Joshua as high priest and mediator

what a God we worship through Prophet TB JOSHUA (from here)

Jesus prayed that his executors would be forgiven, but woe betide anyone saying a negative thing about TB Joshua

saying negetive things especilally about a man of God Prophet TB Joshua, is asking for curses. He is an anointed man of God. (from here)

TB Joshua as er, the son of God?

“TB JOSHUA IS JESUS of our time” (from here)

TB Joshua, the perfect man:

Everything T.b.Joshua does is purely christlike (from Doe, a TB Joshua watch commenter)

TB Joshua, saviour of the world:

u can’t change my love for him b’cos his send from God to rescue the world! (another comment on this site)

Finally, most comically – TB Joshua as a country.

I pledge to TB josua my country.
To be faithful, loyal and honest.
To serve TB josua with all my strenght.
To defend his unity.
To uphold his honour and glory
So help me God. (from here)

Finally, consider the blogs supporting his ministry. TB Joshua Fanclub, TB Joshua Fans, TB Joshua Testimonies… Is not this man an object of worship to his followers?

So to those TB Joshua supporters who hang around here, we’d love to know:

  1. How do you regard the authority of his words?
  2. What do you make of the implication of the anointing water and “Distance is no barrier”? (Don’t reply to this with a list of miracles, we’ve knocked that one on the head in this post, and besides – the false Christ in Matthew 24:24 performs great signs and wonders).
  3. What do you make of the fan statements above?
  4. Finally, and most importantly – ask youself what would your relationship with God would be like without TB Joshua? Your answer to that question may well reveal to you whether he has become a false Christ in your life.

114 thoughts on “TB Joshua, a false Christ?

  1. I must say that I purposely chose not to comment on this blog as I did not deem most of the contents as being worthy of time or attention. However, for the sake of clarity for those who may chance upon this and read only some opinionated and subtly misleading articles, I thought I would respond to some of the issues raised in this post.

    1. When Prophet T.B. Joshua preaches, I examine his words in the light of Scriptures and discover clear alignment. That is not to say I view his words in the same esteem as God’s Word. His messages simply inspire me to go deeper into the Word of God and always bring points of practical application to actualise God’s Word in one’s daily life. I would readily encourage anyone to sit down, watch his sermons and point out Scriptural contradictions if they perceive them to be such.

    2. Distance Is Not A Barrier – probably your most nonsensical point so far. The genesis of this title is a well-known phrase used by TBJ, “Distance is not a barrier for the Holy Spirit. Anywhere you are, just believe.” The emphasis is on building faith in the hearts of viewers watching not on explaining the omnipresence of the Most High.

    3. Anointing Water – direct quote of TBJ, “It is not the water that heals but God Himself, since the anointing is done in Jesus’ name.” Aside, the immediate reaction to ‘rule out a list of miracles’ is also senseless. Tell that to the barren couple of 10 years who had a child after using the AW. Also, please don’t talk authoritatively about what you are not clear on – the AW is not shipped out to anyone.

    4. Fan statements – I can readily understand some people’s misguided inclinations that TBJ is above an average human being simply because of the remarkable activities/ miracles taking place in the ministry. It is unfortunate that such people voice their opinions in a potentially blasphemous way but to suggest that he affirms or agrees with such simply because they are being said is absurd. You cannot censor opinions.

    5. I have a wonderful relationship with my Heavenly Father which has only been strengthened and moved forward since I discovered TBJ’s ministry.

    A few additional points to the moderator – stop classifying every person who has something positive to say about TBJ as a ‘TBJ follower’. I am not a follower of TB Joshua but a follower of Christ who has grown stronger in my journey of faith in HIM through TBJ’s ministry. Such language is very provocative.

    Secondly, your immediate cancellation of Emmanuel TV from the equation of legitimacy when appraising T.B. Joshua is also ridiculous and a blatant attack on the intelligence of the millions (not an exaggeration) who regularly watch ETV and draw closer to Christ through it.

    I encourage those on this forum to watch a SCOAN Live service and explain how the prophecy, deliverance, healing and charitable activities are fruits of a false Christ whose intention is to drive people away from the truth and inflict pain on them. The Sunday and Monday services are broadcast live so the argument of editing and manoeuvring testimonies falls flat.

    • Hi John. First of all, thanks for being one of the only TB Joshua supporters to actually directly address questions raised on this site, rather than constantly beating around the bush.

      1) Really glad you don’t hold his words as being equal to God’s. Unfortunately, from what I’ve seen on this site and what the article above showed, you’re a rare breed.
      2) I agree with the article, that slogan only makes sense if it refers to a man. If God is omnipresent then distance is an irrelevance. It’s almost like asking what speed that tree can go at – a tree is stationary, so speed is an irrelevance. There are 2 options, either this is an incredibly dumb and meaningless slogan (I don’t think they’re that stupid), or it’s referring to TB Joshua. Given the image that goes with it, I strongly believe it’s the latter.
      3) If by ruling out a list of miracles you mean not counting them as evidence that he’s from God, then it’s certainly not senseless. The false christ in the quoted bible verse does mighty signs and wonders.
      4) No, you can’t blame TB Joshua for these statements, and I’m glad you acknowledge them as blasphemous. However, are you aware of him ever publicly addressing these widespread, blasphemous beliefs. As the article says, in some cases they’re even broadcast around his church. Remember how Paul and Barnabus reacted when people started saying similar things about them? Look it up in Acts 14. Also, what do you make of the worship song about him?

    • @ John, wow! I guess I should say “… flesh and blood did not reveal this to you…” But that was really spot on! – you’ve said it all, so I’ll just restrict my comment now to: the issue of “infallibility” as was used on the topic post quoting me…for clarity, I’ll explain thus;

      TB Joshua himself says “… The baptism of the Holy Spirit gives this infallibility. Whatever he says is always complete and correct; whatever he writes is infallibly accurate.”

      …this is exactly how the Bible was written, Holy men of God were carried along by the spirit as they chronicled HIS word on scrolls – for instance, more than half of the new testament’s epistles was written by pauls own hands – but today we quote his writings as being infallibly accurate – why? because of his calling to Apostleship authenticated by his baptism in the Holyspirit, Are you now saying the Holyspirit has stopped inspiring prophets to speak and write?
      even you yourselves know that the Holyspirit is still very much in the business of teaching believers all things as Christ said He would – and whatever he says or teaches is perfect, complete, correct and without error. If you say the words of a person speaking by the Holy spirit are not infallibly accurate, then we could as well throw away our Bibles as NOT being infallible because they were written by MEN who spoke and wrote by the spirit as well.

      Its still an unfathomable wonder to historians and intellectuals, how the scripture, written at different times in history by many different prophets of different backgrounds and origin- is perfectly coherent and in complete harmony, because MEN were inspired by the Holyspirit to speak and write of the mind of God.

      So I really see the issue of infallibility you keep going on about as a non-issue, if the scripture which was written by MEN through the SPIRIT is infallibly accurate, it also by implication means that whatsoever is spoken by a person through the SPIRIT is also infallibly accurate.

      • Are you now saying the Holyspirit has stopped inspiring prophets to speak and write?

        Are you saying that the bible is still being written?

      • @ Soe,

        Well I am sorry to tell you Soe, T. B. Joshua is NOT one of those prophets as you think he can be classified into. I will prove it to you:

        1. T. B. Joshua does not write anything that can be added to the bible. For the simple written reasons in the Bible I will quote unto you so you can understand how wrong you are.

        Deuteronomy 4 Hear now, O Israel, the decrees and laws I am about to teach you. Follow them so that you may live and may go in and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you. 2 Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you.

        Deuteronomy 12: 32 See that you do all I command you; do not add to it or take away from it.

        Proverbs 30: 6 Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar.

        Matthew 15:6 Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: 8 ”‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’”

        1 Corinthians 4:6 Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.”

        Revelation 20: 18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

      • “So I really see the issue of infallibility you keep going on about as a non-issue, if the scripture which was written by MEN through the SPIRIT is infallibly accurate, it also by implication means that whatsoever is spoken by a person through the SPIRIT is also infallibly accurate.”

        Apart from the usual dodgy theology….

        At least you’re not putting holy before Spirit. A spirit is speaking, for sure. But until TBJ publicly, voluntarily and transparently address all question marks around him I will call this ‘spirit’ decidedly unholy.

    • “5. I have a wonderful relationship with my Heavenly Father which has only been strengthened and moved forward since I discovered TBJ’s ministry.”

      Dear John,
      You post seems to be sincere.
      A few questions for you.
      1. What experience of this organisation do you have other than ETV do you have?
      2. What makes you so sure you are right? How do you, for instance, explain the sexual abuse allegations?
      3. What if you are completely wrong and TBJ is a type of false Christ?
      4. Do you know anyone who has been sexually abused? Hearing about these allegations – would you let your children near this man?
      5. Why do feel that you have to comment on this site?
      6. Why do so many of the sexual abuse stories have the same ingredients?
      In commenting, please consider that people have been extremely hurt (physically, emotionally and spiritually) by this man. With every word you’re typing to defend him you are making their suffering worse.

      • @ Ian,
        you haven’t answered my question and you’re asking me another, anyway, I’ll answer yours
        and make known to you a mystery- believe it or not the answer is…

        YES!!!

        May I ask, who told you that the writing of the bible has stopped? – The bible is Gods Mind & works made known to man in words, – The bible was a collection of scrolls binded together, Are you saying that the voice of God was sealed with the binding of the then available scrolls? are you saying God stopped speaking with the binding of scriptural writings of long ago?

        Perhaps the only text reputed for being used to back the end of scriptural writings is in revelation which is often misinterpreted, where it says;

        I warn everyone who hears the words of the PROPHECY OF THIS BOOK: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, – Revelation 22:18;

        and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of “THIS PROPHECY”, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. – Revelation 22:19

        This text is often misinterpreted to mean the entire Bible- yet the angel made it clear that he was referring to the book of “REVELATION ALONE”, because at the time John was having this revelation, he was not aware of the secret letters written to Timothy by Paul from prison and other diverse letters..that were later collated with the book of Revelation, or can you tell which came before which? … Oh how I hope you would catch this!

        Why would Jesus need to send us the holy spirit to teach us if he taught us all we needed to know?
        If Christ had taught us all things, where did apostle Paul get his controversial epistles from, which we still regard as scripture?
        And if the Holyspirit would teach us new things from God the father what do you expect those words to become?… Short of scripture?

        The only thing to be sure of is that what is written now and what would be written would be in perfect harmony with what has been written.

        @Nanardi,
        I’ll commend you for seeing the bigger picture… but from the scriptural passages you mentioned, the bible should have SURELY ENDED in the book of Deuteronomy, or the book of proverbs, or perhaps the book of matthew…the list is getting endless… You had better rethink your interpretations of those texts…
        All those verses (including the one in revelation) refer to NOT changing the semantics (meaning) of Gods word given at any time… NOT at all meaning Gods word has stopped.

        2. You said; “TB. Joshua is
        NOT one of those prophets as you think he can be classified into”….

        May I ask you, What exactly has apostle Paul who was once a murderer done in scripture or which miracle was performed through him that we have not witnessed greater today in the life of TB Joshua?.. that makes you think he does not fit into the category? You are entitled to your opinion, but the fact is that with TB Joshua, History is being made and he’s soaring to the heights where his words will be reckoned with, even by generations yet unborn. if the Lord tarries, Don’t be suprised, your great grand children will quote the words of TB Joshua in the same way you quote those of apostle Paul today.

      • Wow, are you for real Soe? John – if you’re reading these comments, do you see what kind of stuff gets said by TBJ’s supporters? Surely you don’t also believe that TB joshua is effectively writing new scripture? Commenters like Soe do far more damage to the reputation of TB Joshua and SCOAN than any of the authors on this site – if you disagree with the outrageous claims Soe makes, it would be worth your while refuting them.

  2. Hello John
    Thanks for your comments. You say that there are statements from this post that are misleading. Are you able to answer some questions to clarify some of the points and your responses to them?
    2)Distance is not a barrier. You say this is part of a well known saying of the man but why is the complete saying not used? It is not a well known saying to people who do not know the sayings of this man. A google search for “distance is not a barrier” shows the partial saying and a picture of TBJoshua and does not clearly explain that it is all about the Holy Spirit. Can you say why this is not made clear?
    3)Anointing water. Why is it not printed on the packaging that Jesus is the healer?
    Is the water being distributed around the world?

  3. I am not suprrise and i do not expect any one with the fear of God to be. TB joshua’s fight is not against flesh and blood but against spirit, its obviously impossible for anyone to believe him without the help of holy spirit. For human beings if christ should be born now he will be killed in a way more painful and shamful than crusification. We the opportunist(those who listing to TB)should be in aptitude of praying for them to disover the priceless gift of nature(GOD) please lord forgive us

    • its obviously impossible for anyone to believe him without the help of holy spirit

      That kind of reminds me of a bible verse: “no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit” 1 Cor 12:3. Except I think you were talking about TB Joshua. What was this article about again?

    • “to disover the priceless gift of nature(GOD)”. That is called panentheism = idolatry… which ties in nicely with the article.

  4. Hi john
    i was wondering if could explain what is meant by “baptism and salvation are coextensive”? (equal)
    disciples believe that neither you or i or they are baptised in the holly spirit. So…where does that leave us?

    For simon, i was wondering if tb joshua sins like everyone else?

    Thanks

    • TB Jodhua is capable of committing sin just like everyone else as all human beings do.”For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” Rom.3:23. The prophet has never claimed to be sinless,”For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourself: it is the gift of God: lest any man should boast…….” Eph.2:8,9. I know that most of you critics want the man of God himself to answer evey bit of allegations that have been and are yet to be levelled against him but he has ‘placed his hands on the plough of honour’ and cannot waste precious time to respond to things only God himself has the power to judge. Please don’t expect his response for he knows where his is gooing and cannot be distracted, to the shame of the evil one. God’s work must be accomplished for He uses foolish things to confound the wise. Better is not good enough the best is yet to come. Emmanuel!!!!!!!

      • I know that most of you critics want the man of God himself to answer evey bit of allegations that have been

        Are you saying that he shouldn’t have to answer to repeated allegations of sexual abuse?

        People said the same thing about catholic priests for many years. The priests were seen as untouchable, infallible. Please don’t make the same mistake with TB Joshua. If you cared about his ministry you’d want these allegations to be addressed once and for all. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, he’s got nothing to lose and everything to gain from allowing these allegations to be thoroughly, publicly and independently scrutinised…. unless they happen to be true.

    • No, no steve – the question is not whether he is CAPABLE of sinning…its DOES HE SIN. Big difference Steve, but nice try 😉

      “in order to exercise such power, he must be infallible. The baptism of the Holy Spirit gave this infallibility. Whatever he said was always complete and correct, whatever he wrote was infallibly accurate.”
      – TB Joshua, With Such Power (speaking about annointing in men of God like Paul)

  5. To John,

    Quote: “I must say that I purposely chose not to comment on this blog as I did not deem most of the contents as being worthy of time or attention. However, for the sake of clarity for those who may chance upon this and read only some opinionated and subtly misleading articles, I thought I would respond to some of the issues raised in this post.”

    This shows on it-selves how locked up you are in this T. B. Joshua world, if not even show arrogance from your side that other believers and Christians around the world have genuine concerns, questions and theological and doctrinal errors about the origin of T. B. Joshua’s methods, powers and teaching.

    What makes you as a person that you can stand above others theological and doctrinal studies that are accepted all over the world as the standard of God’s word to be interpreted as you are thinking and that yours is the only one that is genuine here ?

    That it still has not short circuited in your thinking processes that there are genuine problems, arguments, issues that are not being resolved, shows about your ignorance you are displaying here.

    Don’t you get, there is anger, frustration, issues, problems, trouble in the people’s lives that are writing here and that you and T. B. Joshua or even others clearly do not have a solution for it. I cannot understand that that is not coming through to you as a huge problem by itself. i.e. Driving a car with 4 cylinders and only 3 are sparking but you are ignoring it) You surely would not a mechanic want to look at that would you now ? Especially you are saying that you are standing on a distance watching it all without offering a solution yourself but a promotion of what SCOAN is doing.

    I certainly perceive from your writing this is not the case at all, except justifying anything that is done by this ministry as being RIGHT ! Do I also see that those who have these problems are just a small group that actually is not worthy to be looked at. If you are a pastor, you surely should start looking at this scriptures and do likewise. ~~~> And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.
    Matthew 12:11-12 and Matthew 18:12-14 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

    And you certainly have not studied II Thessalonians 2:1-17 very well in depth. Since you think that millions cannot be deceived because of being “intellectual”. Especially in a time such as this, THAT anything goes, makes your argument weak and not thoroughly thought through before answering here.

    I personally are sincerely disappointed in you that you have stood on the sidelines and have been sitting on the fence while I am 100% sure that those who have written here are sincerely hurting and have problems with that in their personal lives.

  6. @ Soe,

    This scripture on it’s own should put up to the fact alone and should immediately set off major red flags about their contents in walking after a man.

    Galatians 1:6-12

    I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. <~~~ and no-one else.

  7. @ Soe,

    Ummm, Are you saying that T.B. Joshua was knocked off his horse while murdering other christians in the process by Jesus and shortly after that Jesus “poked” him in the eyes and told him to change his ways ?

    I truly and sincerely doubt that any of my grandchildren or great grandchildren will ever quote T. B. Joshua’s quotable quotes.

    So you are also saying to me that what is written in the bible does not suffice pertaining Salvation, Healing, Blessing, Miraculous, Deliverance ?

    Have you noticed that Jesus whenever he was confronted by any Teacher of the Word of God and the Law he quotes the Word of God and not something He found fancy to say as a quotable quote ? The reason was because He was the Word of God and T. B, Joshua IS NOT the Word of God.

    Have you also noticed Soe, that the Major and Minor Prophets in the bible contained were used for the confirmation of Jesus’ birth. Secondly about John who wrote Revelation was lead by the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit does not contradict anyone who is inspired by God to write the Word of God. They are one.

    However the quotable quotes from T. B. Joshua are to me coming over as philosophical and not additional to the Word of God as you think or hope for.

    Claims of prophets have existed in many cultures through history, including Judaism, Islam, the Sybilline and the Pythia, known as the Oracle of Delphi, in Ancient Greece, Zoroaster, the Voluspa in Old Norse, Bahai faith, Kabbalah and many many others.

    There is not one thing T. B. Joshua can say and if I quote it or believe it, it will bring the results as the Word of God direct out of the Bible. I challenge you yourself to try it. Put them next to each other and see which one gives the result you have in faith.

    Many quote them up till today from my former paragraph, but nothing equals to God’s inspired/breathed Word of God (Logos) because it has creative powers unlimited.

    God is the only One that can create things out of completely nothing. There is no prophet, pastor, human anywhere in this world that can. All things are from God and in God and through God and through Jesus Christ and by His Holy Spirit.

    T. B. Joshua in there, means nothing. You don’t seem to grasp that, it is much deeper than T. B. Joshua, you, anyone or me and above all It is Finished ! Jesus Christ has done it all. In Jesus Christ all things are fulfilled and finished. Nowhere in the bible it says we have to look for another “christ” to fulfill it. Nowhere. It’s done.

    Although the bible says clearly, Many will come ……..

    If we put up T. B. Joshua next to Jesus ?

    1. Jesus….Taxmoney out of the mouth of a fish, T. B. Joshua….fail.
    2. Jesus….Walking over water……………………….T.B. Joshua ….fail.
    3. Jesus….Commands Peter to go fish, record amount of fish…. T.B. Joshua… fail.
    4. Jesus …Heals Malchus ear on the spot……. T.B. Joshua ….. fail.
    5. Jesus … Multiplies and feeds the 5000 with 5 loaves and 2 fish…. T.B. Joshua.. fail.
    6. Jesus…. You fill it in…..

    Greater is the Greek word meizon -neuter of 3187; (adverbially) meaning greater degree: more.

    Jesus says, “the works I do” works Greek ergon, means to work; toil as an effort or occupation; an act of labor. They will labor greater in degree. Jesus saying “greater works than these” meant a more extensive ministry.

    There are other words used for miracles- Semeion, a “sign,” i.e., an evidence of a divine commission; an attestation of a divine message (Matt. 12:38, 39; 16:1; Mark 8:11; Luke 11:16; 23:8; John 2:11, 18, 23; Acts 6:8, etc.); evidence of the presence of God.

    Terata, “wonders”; events that evoke astonishment in those who observe them (Acts 2:19).

    Dunameis, often used for the power to do Miracles “mighty works”; deeds performed by a superhuman power (Acts 2:22; Rom. 15:19; 2 Thess. 2:9).

    And Erga, “works;” the deeds of Jesus, (John 5:20, 36.)

    To use John 14:12, and claim we or even through T. B. Joshua will do greater works meaning miracles, signs and wonders is completely removed from its context and intent in your case here.

    Where are the greater miracles you claim Soe wrought by T. B. Joshua then of Jesus Christ ?

  8. Am not suprised.people who claim not to watch Emmanuel tv.how do we expect them to know what Tb Joshua means when he said distance is not a barrier.just because it was written on this post as Distance is not a barrier does not mean thats how it ended.
    EVERY Emmanuel tv viewer knows Tb Joshua always make it clear.its the Holy Spirit.and Tb Joshuas picture on the screen is just a means to help viewers faith.like John rightly said.
    The Holy spirit can use any medium.cos we can’t see Him.

    • I’m sure the ex disciples who contribute have watched enough etv for a lifetime. So have I. It is not all that you make it out to be. Even after watching it I thought the ‘prophecies’ were poor attempts at fortune telling, the ‘healings’ unspectacular, unverified and suggestive, embarrassing and probably fake and the deliverances nothing else but suggestive mesmerism. My Bible doesn’t tell me to watch more tv so I can understand what someone is really about. Their words and deeds should be clear enough. The fact is that TBJ does not deny claims made about him. By their fruit you shall kown them. Sayings like ‘distance is not a barrier’ is at best misleading and at worst proof that TBJ sees himself as a type of Christ/mediator between us and God. Many people find it misleading and even blasphemous, so why not take the time one Sunday on the TBJ propaganda machine that is etv and clarify everything?! That won’t happen in a hurry…..

  9. @Nanardi,

    I had hoped that your response would be to the point of the issues I raised, questions I asked, and facts I established, but its far from it enough to make me quickly loose the will to continue with you- besides, you’re distorting and adding to my words by making a comparison between the works of TB Joshua and Jesus which I NEVER did – which is very similar to what all the verses you yourself quoted dreadfully WARNS against.

    let’s get to the key question Ian raised which I bluntly answered, (the continuity of the writing of the scriptures) In case you forgot what you were trying to establish, let me remind you, – you did quote verses in Deuteronomy, and proverbs for me, that God decreed that no other book should be added to the book of “Deuteronomy”, Then later changed His mind that it should end in “Proverbs”…., later on Matthew…, – to supposedly tell me how wrong I was about the continuity of scriptures, but have you now considered that if that were the case, no subsequent books would have followed Deuteronomy and Proverbs?

    If you now believe the Bible is still being written, then say so, if you don’t, then come out with stronger reasons backed by scripture…and don’t beat about the bush.

    @ian,

    You yourselves have said he’s writing New scriptures, but the truth remains that the Holyspirit is the articulate and brilliant author of the scriptures, he has not stopped the supply or stopped giving it expression – and He does it through suitable men. And I didn’t call it new, but rather a continuity.., I only said that the writing of the scripture is continuous…and there is nothing new in what continues, it was, is and will always be, Little wonder TB Joshua says ..”GOD IS STILL SAYING SOMETHING” Its logical to conclude that apostle Paul in his day(except by revelation) couldn’t have imagined us today to be quoting his secret letters to Timothy as infallible scripture. Why are you disturbed that scriptural history is Being made in your own generation?, we should consider ourselves fortunate to be part of this generation,where this is taking place.

    Having answered your question, I think its high time you answered my mine, are you saying God has stopped inspiring the prophets to speak and write?

    • Having answered your question, I think its high time you answered my mine, are you saying God has stopped inspiring the prophets to speak and write?

      I believe in prophecy, but all prophecy must be inline with scripture. If it’s not, then it’s false. Its purpose is to illuminate existing scripture, not to generate new scripture. So no, I’m not saying God has stopped inspiring the prophets to speak and write, but I am saying that the canon of scripture is closed. Prophets have no authority of their own, only the authority of scripture. If their prophetic word cannot be supported by scripture, then it’s not from the Holy Spirit.

      If (like you say) future generations are quoting TB Joshua in the way today’s generation quote the apostle Paul, then that would make it a whole new religion.

      • @Ian,
        I’m glad you believe the Holy Spirit still inspires prophets in our day to speak and write, and you wouldn’t dispute that words written and spoken by the inspiration of the Holyspirit are infallibly accurate – just as if the epistles written by apostle Paul are all infallibly accurate, it logically follows that Paul himself must have been infallible to write such.

        2, You also said:
        “The canon of scripture is closed”
        May I ask you who said? It may be a very popular theological stand, but frankly, who closed it? Man or God? If you say God did, well it logically follows, since we know the Bible is inspired. It seems unthinkable that the text should be inspired, but that the canon should not also be God-given, so then Kindly supply scriptural verse(s) to butress this without which I have a very good reason to take it as false and an unfortunate widespread doctrine.

        But If you say man did, then I would want you to consider that the Jews did not definitively define and close their canon prior to the Christian era and the New Testament canon was not produced by the simple decree of any church governing body. Rather, like the Old Testament, the New testament took shape over a period of time as the oral teachings of the original apostles were written down and distributed among the early Christian churches.

        My point is that much of what we regard in the new testament as infallible scripture today, were at the time of writing Not really regarded as such, but were merely letters containing sermons, exhortations, and encouragements to churches, as “ecclesiastical” rather than “canonical” texts – I mean, they were read in the church, but not to be cited for proof texts of doctrine, But its a different story today, Like I said in my previous post, it was over time that pauls private and secret letters to Timothy appreciated to a portion of our infallible scripture of today – Which Paul himself (except by revelation) couldn’t have imagined.

        In summary: The documentation of the sayings, writings and events of the prophets inspired by the Holyspirit is what was collated, and translated today as scripture… And more of it will be illuminated (as you said) through the Holyspirit by prophets of renown in our day and very likely in future be collated with those illuminated by prophets of the past…” that shouldn’t be too much for you to comprehend, Remember a new letter written by apostle Paul as a prisoner would have passed for “Trash” if found on the floor in his day, but would it be the same story if such were found today? In the same way, I assure you, that the value of TB Joshua today (however great you think it is now) is nothing compared to what it will be in generations to come, – But this time, the generations yet unborn won’t just have texts and writings, but also video clips of high digital quality. (The major reason for the heavy recording and archiving of the happenings in Scoan) and there’s really nothing we can do about it but to play our part in this great history that is unfolding before our eyes.

        3. You also said, If (like you say) future generations are quoting TB Joshua in the way today’s generation quote the apostle Paul, then that would make it a whole new religion. My question is…How? Does our quoting today of apostle Paul make a new religion of Christianity? – to be sure, It was not the making of apostle Paul for his secret letters to be collated with other books as infallible scripture so also it would not be the making of TB Joshua or anyone else to include their inspired messages…” All they have to do is speak the word and give the prophecies as inspired…” the rest is history.

    • @Nanardi – while it’s funny Soe telling you off for not being concise or beating around the bush, he does kind of have a point!

      • Doi, are you saying people should look at Tbjoshuas face to get more faith?!

        “Tb joshuas face on the screen is just a means to help viewers faith”

      • @ Soe, Ian,

        It’s clear to me whenever I watch ETV about SCOAN, that there is no evidence of greater miracles of what Jesus did which is so vigorously claimed by Soe. That is what that post up there means and I put plenty scriptures up there for anyone of you to examine what it takes to do so, which I doubt now that anyone of you did look at them.

        Anyone can have their freedom of speech, but if I claim the Toothfairy exists and takes teeth away while I am sleeping for money, I am perfectly justified if I am convinced and telling myself this, that I believe in it. If it is true or a fact is endlessly debatable to ad nauseam . So is this issue about T. B. Joshua. Let me remind Soe, that he still has no evidence brought forward that T. B. Joshua is innocent and never sins, which is concerning the people I think who write on this blog.

        If this is not so and this blog is just like what they do with celebrities, making accusations that are not true and making a lot of stampede about it everywhere, so everyone can read this and then when it really is coming to it, it was not true and it only helped the person in question to skyrocket towards fame. Because that is how people are. What is bad now is good, what is good now is bad.

  10. Hi Giles.
    Helps viewers faith making them know two believers are better than one.believing together brings greater productivity.i mean this is what is regularly said on E tv!

    • Hi doi.
      But why do you need to see TB joshuas face? It is written in the bible about two believers. Jesus said it. That should be enough.

  11. I have read with some horror the comments that have been posted today.
    Regarding the statement put forward quite vehemently by Soe that the Bible is still being written. Who is it that is making that claim? I have no problem in acknowledging that there are people who are inspired by the Holy Spirit to write great works that draw people to Jesus. But these works are not the Bible. I have read books written to the Glory of God many generations ago that are very relevant today but they do not claim to be part of the Bible. I have been privileged to know people who have written inspired works or speak with great inspiration but they have not had the arrogance to claim that their words are adding to the Bible. Who is it that is making the claim about this one man that his words are adding to scripture? Soe you have said that you are not an agent of SCOAN so can you tell me where this teaching comes from?

    Regarding phrase “distance is not a barrier”
    John has said that this is a “well known phrase of … ” It is not a well known phrase apart from that.
    Doi has said something about “Every Emmanuel tv viewer….” Not everybody is an Emmanuel TV viewer. So John and Doi are saying that this phrase has meaning only in a very specific context, outside of that context it is a nonsensical phrase,
    I cannot see how it is possible to have a relationship with God when it seems from these comments your minds are so full of the sayings of this one man. It seems that the answer to questions are only given in the context of Emmanuel TV or of sayings that are “well known”
    It amazes me how anyone can even begin to think that a meaningless statement out of context and a picture of a man can encourage people to have faith in Jesus.

  12. Joseph Smith also believed that the canons were not closed. He wrote the Book of Mormons according to him was given to him on golden plates somewhere secret in the woods by the angel of Moroni.

    According to the LDS (Which is a cult) they believe in:

    The Standard Works of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) consists of several books that constitute its open scriptural canon, and include the following:

    – The King James Version of the Bible
    – The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ
    – The Doctrine and Covenants of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
    – The Pearl of Great Price

    and…… with all the disastrous false teaching(s) that has come out of it, we now have the Church of Mormon that has numerous false teachings going around the world including their disciples that roam everywhere in different cities.

    It’s no point for me to go into that further now, but in the way you are saying things here Soe, up there in your post. it’s almost exactly the same as with them, except you think that when T. B. Joshua says something it might be written or added in the Bible some day as God’s Authoritative Voice….in the hope that it will be canonized one day in 2075 or so.

    Let me repeat again for you my former post of Galatians 1:6-12 up there. Which you obviously have not read at all, otherwise you would not say such things in next posts.

    I really would like to know from you, Soe, that what is in the Bible if that is not enough or suffice to live a victorious, celebrated Christian life ? Everyone agrees who is a believer in God that everything that is in there pertaining our lives is enough. B. I. B. L. E. = Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth, Soe.

    Perhaps you should study the early church fathers about what they thought about certain teachings and revelations that were rampant in those days after Paul’s death and see what they said about them.

    • @Nanardi,

      You asked: I really would like to know from you, Soe, that what is in the Bible if that is not enough or suffice to live a victorious, celebrated Christian life ?

      I do agree with you that our conventional bible of 66 books is enough for our generation, Just as the old testament was enough for some generation(s), but can you really imagine having a bible today without the gospels, and epistles? That’s how our present Bible would be for generations yet unborn, and with the rate at which TB Joshua is leaving an indelible footprint in modern Christianity, its not a hope, but a certainty, future generations would definitely fetch from the experience, and writings of previous generations of renowned prophets like TB Joshua of today, and not around 2075, thats rather too close, but i’m talking of a space of several centuries to over a millennium if the Lord tarries.

      @ Madelaine,
      I would expect your concern of where the teaching is from to be subservient to the truism of it – which seems hard for you to accept, even with the logical reasoning and established facts that make it obvious, and if all I’ve stated on this issue is not convincing for you, then neither will knowing where it comes from change your mind – the Bible itself doesen’t tell us the books that belong in it, – it even clearly mentions a number of books, sometimes by name, which we do not have any more as there are no manuscripts or translations of any of them – if they were found today, would they be any less of scripture because you already have a binded copy of those previously found? The implications of all this is an unfortunate reality, that our binded copy of the Bible today is indeed short of all its expected to contain of the past, and since you yourselves agree that the undisputed source of scripture, the “direct inspiration” gift of prophecy has not ceased, It then follows that parts of the Bible are still being written; the scripture has certainly NOT ended with the binding, we have evidences that even those of the past were not entirely collated, neither were we told anywhere that the collating and binding was done by God or under the auction of the holy spirit. whether we now recognise it or not doesn’t matter, afterall NO scripture was at the time of writing, generally appreciated as it was later on as Centuries went by.

      • It is indeed hard for me to be subservient to the truism of your statement that the bible is still being written because I emphatically do not believe it to be true.

        However it is clear that you do believe it.
        Who are the inspired men and women writing in the world today that you believe are adding to Bible?
        Whose inspired writings over the past two millennia should have been added to the Bible?
        Who makes the choice?
        Or is your belief only related to this one man?

        So the question that I asked earlier was to try and find out the source of the statement that I believe to be false. Maybe I should have been more direct.

        Is it TBJoshua who is saying that his own teaching will be read in generations to come in the way that we now read the teaching of Paul?

  13. There is a lot about what John said that I can relate to. I was once of a very similar mindset. Although never a TBJ follower, I have been to SCOAN in Lagos and have been closely associated with it. I truly believed he was a Man of God. I couldn’t believe how people could possibly come to any other conclusion. I will not tell my story here but I would like to do that soon. I am aware that I haven’t yet answered questions by Soe/Doi on a previous post. Thank you for welcoming me to the discussion.

    After much prayer and reading of God’s Word (the Bible), both alone and with others, I began to discern and the unthinkable happened. I thought that TBJ brought me closer to God. It certainly felt like he did for a time but I know now that that is a terrible lie. I know personally several people who are or have been involved and have seen a lot of what goes on “behind the scenes” in the lives of the disciples and followers.

    We are warned about deception. It is not always what it seems. We must discern.No matter how good it looks and feels. It is hard sometimes, not obvious. Satan is a liar and a great deceiver. He masquerades as an angel of light.

    2 Corinthians 11:14-15
    14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
    15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants also masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.

    There is no doubt about the miracles. I have seen incredible things and incredible power. I was exhilerated for a time that it IS possible for these things to happen. I could not believe it when I realised the extent of the deception. It is nothing new. We are warned so much in the Bible. It is at our peril that we let someone tell us we can’t or should not question it. It was happening when Paul wrote his letter to the Corinthians as in the scriptures above and below.

    2 Cor 11v4

    4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

    Some of the quotable quotes seem sensible in and of themselves but when mixed and given authority with scripture they twist its very meaning. The Gospel of Salvation..that God so loved us that he sent his ONLY Son to DIE in our place, so that we would not perish but could have eternal life and could be restored to right relationship with God the Father. Jesus is all we need. Anything that says this is NOT enough is to deny Jesus. Jesus came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets (see Matt 5)

    Let me ask you this question…..Would you rather have a miracle sign or wonder of questionable origin (of Satan himself) or pursue the Truth at all costs, even if it hurts you and causes you to lose everything in the here and now? Just suppose that you had to make that choice. Would you be strong enough to make the right one? Look at how Satan tempted Jesus, he offered him the kingdoms of the world. He has huge power and he likes to show it off. But he wears a mask.

    Matthew 7:15
    “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.16 By their fruit you will recognize them.

    It would be interesting to discuss more about the “fruit” and what that means but it certainly does not mean miracles or charitable works for anyone with spiritual power (including occult) or money can do those.

    21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

    It is unthinkable to those involved that their beloved TBJ may not be the real deal. I believe there is a real spirit of deception that is at work here, especially in those exposed to SCOAN meetings or ETV. It is intoxicating to see such power at work (I have been there)

    The deeper within SCOAN you get, the more there is to lose as you will have given up your time, money, your family and loved ones and your very life to supporting it and so it is even harder to acknowledge the truth and deception. At this stage it is very hard to even consider it might be a lie and it is easier to carry on believing…that in itself is lie.

    2 Timothy 4:3
    3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

    Please be careful. Please pray in earnest and please seek the Truth. Examine things objectively and don’t just put up with half the story. SCOAN shuts down anyone that opposes it or TBJ (indeed even blackmails) and encourages all it can to do the same. I have seen this personally and witnessed it first hand several times over….But I know there is freedom in Christ and salvation and the joy of a personal relationship with Him.

    • The deeper within SCOAN you get, the more there is to lose as you will have given up your time, money, your family and loved ones and your very life to supporting it and so it is even harder to acknowledge the truth and deception. At this stage it is very hard to even consider it might be a lie and it is easier to carry on believing…that in itself is lie.

      Chilling stuff, but quite true I’m sure. I bet there are people reading this in exactly that position.

  14. The first SCOAN website was “the man in the synagogue”, it was on many old tapes too. When I first saw that it was very strange… who is “the man”? what would happen if “the man” leaves?

    Was this a mistake? maybe yes… they don’t use that term anymore, although it was/is written on his picture in his office. But does that make him want to be Jesus? I thought that for a while after seeing that but the way they handled it answered my question….

    To answer the questions in short:
    1. Like I do any other Pastor

    2. Anointing water is a medium of anointing as what happened to Paul in the bible. Distance is not a barrier? … many people want to have him prayer for them… that mean they don’t have to come to the church to receive answer… Like Jesus sent a word and the centurion’s servant was healed. (Not saying he is Jesus.lol but that’s prayer)

    3. I don’t agree with many of the “fan” statements. Many people think TBJ is God. I met a few.

    4. I can’t say the same, because I follow his messages. It’s like not having a pastor around? I learn a lot and use that in my life. If I would listen to another man of God it would be the same.

    Many has been hurt by the ministry… many has been disappointed. but many has been healed, saved and delivered too… both doesn’t prove anything to me really.

    I believe TBJ is a man of God…. until God reveals to me otherwise (not through man).

    God bless you all 🙂

    Jens…

    • Hi Jenson – thank you for your thoughtful comments. I do not really understand what a ‘man of God’ is supposed to be – am I a ‘woman of God’ because I follow Jesus? But perhaps if I take what you say to mean that you think that the works TBJ does come from God and that his words are inspired by God, is that close enough to what you mean by ‘man of God’?

      One of the problems I have with accepting TBJ as a ‘man of God’ under that definition is that there are allegations of sexual abuse by several women and there is an allegation that he has been unfaithful to his wife (separate to the sexual abuse allegations).

      The bible lays out strict criteria of elders and deacons within the church in 1 Timothy 3.

      v2 and 3 ‘An elder must be a man whose life cannot be spoken against. He must be faithful to his wife. He must exhibit self-control, live wisely and have a good reputation. He must enjoy having guests in his home and must be able to teach. He must not be a heavy drinker or be violent. He must be gentle, peace-loving, and not one who loves money.’

      v7 ‘Also, people outside the church must speak well of him so that he will not fall into the Devil’s trap and be disgraced.’

      I am not sure that TBJ meets these requirements for an elder – he is spoken against, there are allegations that he has been unfaithful to his wife, there are allegations of sexual abuse (which puts his self-control into some doubt) and for many people he does not have a good reputation. And it seems there are plenty of people outside the church who do not speak well of him.

      • Not spoken well of? Thats an understatement. Most of the churches i have been to in the uk dont know tb joshua, but those who have heard of him also think he is…well, son of devil, etc.

        I do not think he is the son of devil, bit i KNOW he is violent towards women because i have witnessed this. for any pro scoan ppl: why do you think i have made this up? How come i went from being a good disciple, to being a blasphemer?
        For me the scoan saga has been a massive first hand lesson on the power of propaganda. Its unbelievable,how watching something again and again eventually makes you believe it. I believed it. But theres so much that happens off camera, when the service is done. Why do you think he sleeps separately from his wife? Why do think alot of disciple meetings happened between midnight and 2am? Why do you think he never gave a direct answer when asked directly if he has ever cheated on his wife? All he had to say is “no, next question please….”:-)

    • Hi Jenson, welcome back! Glad to hear you don’t agree with the fan statements. What do you make of the video of kids singing “everything about him is good…”? That was actually part of the church. What about the “TB Joshua is Jesus’ little brother” dream? The problem is, these beliefs can’t just be put down to a few errant “fans”, it seems to be a whole culture which is encouraged. Have you ever heard TB Joshua rebuke people with beliefs like this? There are enough of them around you would have thought he would have done.

      Interesting that you concede that the Distance is not a barrier slogan is referring to TB Joshua. It only really makes sense that way, but Soe seems adamant that it’s in reference to the Holy Spirit (which makes no sense!).

      • Thanks Ian

        The video of the kids singing… I don’t agree with that. But that doesn’t prove that TBJ is a false Christ. It proves that they treat him as prophet of old or something. If He is a man of God or a false Christ they can still make a mistake to sing a song like that. Why did he allow them to? Well, his mistake. The same thing goes for the dream thing. I don’t know much about but that’s a bit crazy. Still doesn’t prove anything though, they didn’t use that to prove that TBJ is in fact Jesus’ brother… or did they?

        @Claire
        I think it goes both ways, why do you think that people travel all the way to nigeria to see TBJ? I think he’s probably the worlds most visited pastor… if you think about different countries, cultures, presidents ect. All of them visit him weekly for years now.

        Many people think he is the devil, many people think whatever… but should we go be what majority thinks? I think majority of people don’t have a true relationship with God… so I won’t go by majority. The sexual allegations are hectic… I don’t know whether its true or false. If i know it’s true then I’ll probably stop… but I don’t know.

        🙂

      • The thing is with that false christ verse is the deception. Don’t expect a false christ to call himself christ, and don’t expect his followers to acknowledge he’s a false christ. A counterfeiter of money doesn’t produce chocolate pennys, they produce money almost indistinguisable from the real thing.

        In many ways, a false christ is in the eye of the beholder. TB Joshua is not a false christ to me, he may not be to you – but as the post above demonstrates, he is to many people. You could say, you can’t blame him for the way people treat him, but actually I think you can. As I’ve said before, Paul and Barnabus were worshipped by the crowd, but they tore their clothes and shouted ““Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men, of like nature with you, and we bring you good news, that you should turn from these vain things to a living God, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and all that is in them.”. There is no evidence that TB Joshua has ever challenged the blasphemy this post exposes. Why aren’t other Pastors worshiped in the way TB Joshua is? Because if they caught the first scent of people treating them in that way, they’d stamp it out immediately. The evidence suggest that TB Joshua encourages it.

        I must say Jenson, you’re quite unique around here. You must be the only open minded commenter on the whole site! 😉

      • Actually he does… maybe not as clear as many of you would like it.

        here’s a list of things he does or says often:

        “I am not the healer, but I know the healer. His name is Jesus Christ”

        “Jesus Christ is my mentor”

        “I am only a servant”

        “I am a human being just like you. If there is any difference, it is the righteousness of God, pure grace. God chooses Grace rather than works”

        He never encourages people to follow him (or the SCOAN ministry)
        “Look for a living church and get involved there”

        For someone to say these things all the time… I think knows it’s not about him but about the gift of God in his life. This is his message to those people. There has been many times where people bow down in front of him and commands them to get up and says it’s not him they have to bow to but God.

        I won’t say he encourages it…. i do agree however that maybe he don’t “stamp it out immediately” as you said.

        🙂

      • I’d see that as all part of the deception. Little statements which don’t really change much, but give the impression that he is addressing things. Take this comment Gareth made a while back:

        Oh and there was a service on Emmanuel TV not long before I left where pretty much the whole church had pictures of TBJ and were waving them in the air singing a song about him. It was as clear cut idolatry. Even if TBJ then says, thank you thank you, it’s all about Jesus. That doesn’t stop it being idolatry.

        That kind of behaviour is inexcusable, anything other than immediately and forcefully stamping it out (ala Paul and Barnabus) is allowing it to continue, or implicitly encouraging it.

      • Jenson – I know a number of people from the UK who went to Nigeria – some got heavily involved in SCOAN, some didn’t or did but have come away since. These were all intelligent adults. Those that went, were drawn by the miraculous. In the case of my friend Anna, the miraculous turned out not to be – she died of the cancer she had supposedly been healed of. People going to SCOAN from other churches doesn’t prove that TBJ fits the requirements of the verses in 1Tim 3. Lots of people are lauded by others, but are violent, adulterers, drinkers – you name it. 1 Tim 3 is not saying that elders have to be liked by people, but that they shouldn’t be spoken against – they must have integrity and been widely seen as people of integrity.

        I don’t think TBJ fits the requirements of 1Timv2 because of the number of allegations against him and the nature of those allegations. Adultery is always a difficult one to refute, but to be honest if the sexual abuse allegations were made against the vicar in my church. the leadership would suspend him from his position until the allegations had been properly examined by an independent person (probably the police in the UK). This hasn’t happened here and I am left to wonder why not. Instead there appears to have been an attempt to silence those making allegations by threatening to publish old video confessions as detailed in a previous blog on this site. I don’t know your position Jenson, but if you have a daughter or sister or female cousin, would you want to risk her being alone with TBJ in the light of the allegations and the lack of independent investigation of them?

      • Hi Claire

        I’m sorry to hear about the loss of your friend Anna. I do believe that there are many miracles happening at the SCOAN. But not everyone are healed after they receive prayer. It doesn’t work like magic or anything… I do think that they do all they can to hide that though. But even in Jesus’ time… when He went to minister there were many times not all of them were healed.

        Only God can explain why.

        Will I leave my daughter alone with TBJ? (If I had one) I don’t know. I would certainly prayer about it first and ask God for direction about it… but it will not be based on the things I hear and all the accusations going on.

        I have asked a lady friend who went to be a disciple recently (I don’t think she even knows about the allegations) how things are that side and there was no indication that something like that was happening. I have asked a few others too… even some that has left the ministry…. I’m not saying that proves all the allegations to be false, no.

        As TBJ says… Love everyone… trust only God.

      • I agree with Giles. Forget this is TB Joshua for a moment, imagine it is a school teacher who has several outstanding allegations of sexual abuse to their name. Would you let this person teach your child? I don’t think you’d need much prayer to make that decision. Why should it be any different with TB Joshua?

        As for the issue of people not being healed. What makes this worse is that these are cases when TB Joshua has declared them healed! In some cases even told them to give up medication or cancel vital medical procedures as a sign of their faith. I don’t think anyone has a problem accepting that not everyone is healed, the problem is when a powerful man says that you are healed, but you’re not.

      • i dont think i would leave my daughter with any man who had been accused by several different women of raping them- even famous evangelists.
        no one is above temptation.

      • If we go by what people say and how things look like on the outside…. then we go by sight. God says that only faith pleases Him. He wants us to go by Faith.

        I here what you guys are saying and it may seem right… but is that faith?

        We should be a Nicodemus of our day and go to Jesus to find out the truth. If we start to go by what people say we might just miss what God wants for us. Who are we to make decisions?

        If we ask God then He will guide us on these things. He is our guide… not majority. Majority is failure anyway. Following them will lead you to failure.

        Whether it be a teacher or a man of God. It’s the same for me. A quote from TBJ “Allow God’s Word to channel your way, do not allow circumstances to dictate your direction.”

        As for a man of God saying that you are healed….
        The bible says we are healed too, when you read the bible and it says you are healed… should you not believe that even more than when a man tells you… you are healed?

        Whenever a man of God tells you something… I believe that God will personally confirm that Word to be true or not. Whether it’s a still small voice in your heart or a dream… but you should have a clear understanding about it. When your not sure or confused then it could be a problem.

        The problem many people have is that they follow a man of God instead of following Christ. The thing with telling people to stop medication is just not on though… that should be a personal thing.

        I have been to branches and the head quarters and they always say it’s a personal thing, I’ve never heard them say that you should stop. Unless it’s with prophesy and they say you don’t have to go for the operation…. and that’s God speaking through them. But still…. we should examine all things in the light of God’s Word.
        🙂

      • If we ask God then He will guide us on these things

        You seem to think that most of us here have just come to these opinions out of nowhere. Actually for many of us, we believe it is God’s guidance that has led us to the conclusions we have. I had been aware of TB Joshua’s ministry for 10 years before I came to the definite conclusion that it is not of God.

        Unless it’s with prophesy and they say you don’t have to go for the operation…. and that’s God speaking through them.

        that’s what it was purported to be (prophesy), and they died. One reason why many consider him a false prophet.

        we should examine all things in the light of God’s Word.

        Absolutely, and this site has shown many of his practices do not line up with the word of God. The problem is, if you start from the premise that he is a Man of God, you will be blind to reasons that say otherwise. Instead (like the Bereans were to the Apostle Paul), you should start with the word of God and test the so called “man of God” by that standard. It is through that process I have come to the conclusions I am now at.

      • @Ian… can you name me one minister that you think is a true man of God?

        I don’t think there’s anyone that’s perfect, I did say many times that I don’t agree with everything that’s happening in SCOAN… but I don’t think it’s the work of the devil.

        Have you read the God’s generals book? although it’s written by a pastor who “fell” I think it gives us a clear indication of how many great men of God have weaknesses and make mistakes.

        What if your pastor says that he don’t know Jesus during an interview?…. Peter done this… what if your pastor committed fornication?…. David “A man after God’s own heart” did this… what if your pastor murdered someone? Moses done this….

        We all have weaknesses… we all make mistakes… that’s why there’s grace.

        Obviously if someone keeps killing people or keeps fornicating then its a serious problem… but can you give me one pastor who you think lives according to every scripture written in the bible?

        I don’t… not that I’m a Pastor 🙂 lol

      • Not trying to be pedantic or dodge the question, but I don’t consider any minister a “man of God”. I believe in the priesthood of all believers. I can’t see any biblical backing for this role of “man of God” in new covenant days. It is this kind of belief that contributes to the false christ mentality.

        I haven’t read God’s generals, but I don’t have a problem accepting that Pastors sin. What I do have a problem with is so called “men of God” who are believed to be perfect! I know you don’t believe that about TBJ, but many do, and I believe the source of this belief is TBJ himself.

        Due the fact TB Joshua is unrepentant about having built up a culture of idolatry around himself, and refuses to address some very serious charges against him, I can’t accept him as being “of God”. If he repented of these things and addressed the allegations, even if he was found guilty of the allegations, I would find it easier to concede that he had been used by God than I can do now. Like you say, if someone keeps on sinning, it’s a problem – well that’s the problem we have with TB Joshua.

      • Ok Ian….

        Let me rephrase the question then…
        can you name me one minister/priest/pastor that you think is of God?

        Like you said… I’m not many… “Gareth” has made it clear with his post “With such power(ful lies)”. I agree with most of the things Gareth mentioned. However… I know of many well known preachers that preached things that is clearly not inline with God’s Word… but I won’t judge the guy for making one mistake out of thousands of messages.

      • “And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God” – Luke 18:19

        If Pastor Joshua has the Spirit that Jesus had he would have answered in the same principle as Jesus did. For me its enough to conclude his of another spirit!

    • Jenson raises a good point – what would SCOAN be if TBJ ever left? Most pastors move on from their churches at some point – is there any succession plan in place if this ever happened?

      • If Christ is the head of the SCOAN church (I think so, many on here don’t) then it will stand but if not it won’t.

      • The guy who was presumed to take over was a junior prophet called benson. He was also prophecying in the prayer line with tap tap on the microphone, etc.
        I never noticed not seeing him again because often disciples are sent away on assignment for months at a time, so i thought nothing of it.
        It was only when i left and compared notes with other ex disciples that i learnt that he had disappeared because he had died.
        I dont know who else is in line for the throne but i amasuming that there would be someone.

      • There are the 5 wise men that is kinda doing most of the Monday services without TBJ. I have heard about Benson too…. when I heard nothing about him… I continued to ask until someone outside the ministry told me about his death. Not sure how or what happened though.

  15. @Soe
    Quite frankly you are being heretical in your view re Scripture. Please! Get your facts straight.
    Look for the doctrine of Sola scriptura online. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_scriptura is a good starting point. Your view flies in the face of at least 4/500 years of Protestant believe and you cannot with a short little comment on a website possibly contradict this. This is either ignorant or arrogant.
    The reason the Bible is a closed canon is because people like TBJ were making up new things after the death of the original apostles. The church fathers closed the Bible so that only the scripture as we know it is seen as authoritative.
    What he is doing is nothing new. It has been done in the past and people will continue to do so in the future. With most churches discerning this organisation to be heretical I can assure you there is absolutely no chance of him getting book no 67.
    Delusions of grandeur! He is quite inconsequential in the greater scheme of things…
    Ps. You can go the orthodox/catholic route, but then you will still have no leg to stand on.

  16. @Soe,

    “but i’m talking of a space of several centuries to over a millennium if the Lord tarries.”

    None of the writings of the early church fathers/prophets have been ever added to the bible as Authoritative scripture, Soe. As a matter of fact they removed some Apocrypha books from the Bible. There were 72 first before they removed them and made the total books now to 66.

    Perhaps you should read them yourself the early churchfathers/prophets. I can only hope and pray you will do that.

    Here are some links you can explore: “.ccel.org/fathers.html” , “.newadvent.org/fathers/”

    Also some of them were made Anathema, which means: A formal ecclesiastical curse accompanied by excommunication.

    I am more concerned that the quotable quotes and sayings of T. B. Joshua will rather fall under that category as being Anathema in the future than any added to as New Scripture or an Epistle as you imply.

    And example is Origen Adamantius of Alexandria for you to study, examine and read that these guys were far above in understanding of Scriptural exegesis than T. B. Joshua is and yet were rejected because of false doctrinal statements and teachings.

    I hope that you will do so. For your own benefit of understanding me, others and why I am trying to show you what you believe might actually be incorrect and I say this kindly to you for this purpose alone. For your own good. And remember it is still: “It is Written”, Sola Scriptura, Scripture alone, God bless.

    We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any PRIVATE INTERPRETATION. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2 Peter 1:19-21

    The words and quotable quotes you keep believing that T. B. Joshua is speaking to be qualifying them as directly from the Holy Spirit is still very much debatable and should be tested over and over and over again…. against scripture as the Standard.

  17. @Soe

    and you wouldn’t dispute that words written and spoken by the inspiration of the Holyspirit are infallibly accurate

    Er, yeah I would dispute that. There’s nothing wrong with the inspiration, but it’s delivered by an imperfect person. I say it again, prophetic words only have as much authority as the scripture which supports them.

    It seems to me you envisage a day (if the Lord tarries) when the bible will have a third testament. The first one being primarily about God and the law, the second telling the story of Jesus, the coming of the Holy Spirit and the early church, and the third made up of accounts of the wonders of TB Joshua and his Quotable Quotes. That testament might come out as a DVD.

    Put like that, do you see why many have an issue with this idea?

  18. hi jenson, a couple of things i should add here:

    TB Joshua has complete control in his ministry. He wants two disciples to marry, they will (and have). He decides what their children should be called. If he wants a disciple to be ostracized for any reason, all he needs to do is say it and no one will speak to you. If he wants to change someone’s name, then no one will call you by your old name. They make it happen. When Bisola left, accusing him of sexually abusing her, it was clamped down.
    When A—– and S—— left accusing him of sexually abusing them, it was clamped down. I didnt even know about it and I was living there. They made it happen. When G—– and E—– left accusing him of sexually abusing E—–, it got clamped down.

    What I am getting at is that if he wanted to make all this TB Joshua praise to stop, it would stop. If I were in his situation and I really, really wanted to make all this praise stop, I guarantee I will make it happen. Close the Fan-Club, immediately. Get my face off all the DVDs. STOP GIVING OUT FRAMED PICTURES OF MYSELF! Stop people referring to myself in the third person. Invite some guest-pastors to come and speak at my church instead of me.

    You’re right in saying he doesn’t encourage praise. Its way to obvious. You would never get away with someone kneeling in front of you on TV, and you not saying anything. You have to tell them to get up. But off camera, in his office, we always knelt before him if we wanted to speak with him.
    These quotable quotes about following Jesus, etc, youre right. he does say those things. But they’re ticks in the box. Such statements are really just coviering his behind when people accuse him of idolatry. Paul and Silas were furious when this sort of thing happened to them, and they showed it. Why does anyone need TB Joshua’s portrait?

  19. PS, sorry, I forgot to mention about church membership. Again, he will say things like “go to a living church”, but behind the scenes theres another story. I was encouraged many times to become a disciple and leave my own church. When I was attending SCOAN UK, I was going to another church in the afternoons, and they didnt like it either.

    I had a friend for 10 years who I introduced to SCOAN because she needed help – and they did help her, alot. She stayed in their homes, but she was greatly pressured to not attend another church or fellowship with other christians. I know this because we kept in contact for a while after I left. When scoan UK split, she was caught in the middle. She chose to stay simply because she would have nowhere else to go, and to their credit, they carried on supporting her.

    Within 8 weeks, she emailed saying she wanted nothing to do with me ever again.

  20. Hi Giles

    Before I start… I’m not Nigerian or anything but I know their culture is a lot different to where many of us come from. If you look at Christ Embassy… people react in the same way to their leader. When they say a green shirt is pink they won’t think but believe what the man of God says.

    TBJ says that we should “examine all things in the light of God’s Word” and “every lies to his neighbour”. Although… disagreeing with TBJ or even questioning anything he says with a disciple would be a crime. The way people handle things are different to the message they get sometimes. (if TBJ orders them to do so then I guess those quotes are a cover up too.)

    I know that TBJ has the power to say anything to anyone and they will jump. But this could be because they just do it. If anyone just does everything you tell them then it can become a norm. He now expects to get what ever he wants.

    About the sexual accusations…
    Now that I think of it…. if a pastor of any church has a so many sexual accusations against him… he has to deal with it to the church and put things right. I don’t think TBJ did it?

    I don’t agree with the “TBJ picture” on everything too. One time I received a picture of TBJ with prayer things written on it, but I gave it to someone that wanted it.

    Church membership… I agree with you on that… but it’s mostly the “TBJ followers” or disciples. I don’t know whether TBJ tells them to get people to only join the SCOAN… I don’t think so.

    I have been with disciples many times and talked about other ministers but they didn’t want to hear any praise, and when I mentioned that I’m going to a conference/crusade… one of them told me that I need to choose who I serve. My answer was that I don’t serve man. But getting them to say “Keep watching Emmanuel TV” on camera would be the best thing ever. haha!

    In conclusion…
    I think it’s more the disciples and “TBJ followers” that wants you to only serve with SCOAN. There are a few that seem okay if people leave and wish them well but some will think if you leave then you no longer serving God. I think TBJ maybe tells disciples it’s not good for the ministry if people keeps leaving.

  21. It’s good to hear of other peoples experiences. It is so important to warn people.

    I am horrified to learn about Benson. It is desperately suspicious that no-one knows what happened…Very convenient that people “just disappear” all the time if you want to silence or dispose of them. Why, amongst his fellow “brothers and sisters” was he not mourned or buried or remembered, even with thanksgiving for his life..? Either this is a cover up to hide embarrassment that a senior TBJ aide was not healed… Or…far far more sinister things are going on as alluded to by Paul Agomoh. Does anyone have an answer or a legitimate reason?

    When people leave they seem to be denounced as being demon possessed or at fault in some way… Disciples clearly see things that they excuse at the time…against their better judgement and that still small voices. The more you suppress your God-given conscience… The more it is “seared as with a hot iron” and oh how people change when they become entrenched… So hard. So lacking in love in their close relationships…So spiritually proud. So unwilling to even converse with someone who has come out. Why? If those opposed are “demon possessed” or deceived or have not proven “up to the challenge” why give up on them, ostracise them, denounce them and pretend they never existed.. TBJ has supposed miraculous powers over demons. Why be scared of even meeting them.. Why not pray for them..? Jesus told many parables about God’s grace and forgiveness and His pursuit of us… Eg lost sheep and the Prodigal Son…His willingness to give us a second chance,
    wretched and lost as we are. A grave contrast with what really goes on at SCOAN “behind the scenes”

    When the “beautiful mask” slips a bit, what we glimpse behind it is truly ugly.

  22. im afraid not Gretta. They are a new thing well after I was there. Before there were “junior prophets”- disciples chosen by TB Joshua and annointed to pray for people. Those used to be the other ppl in the prayer lines praying.Disciples are forbidden to pray for each other. If you had a headache, then I would not be allowed to pray for you. We would have to find one of those “junior prophets” and they will pray and then tell you to “rest”.

    I know junior prophets can get their….”junior prophet-ness” taken away. Two girls who are still in the ministry, used to be junior prophets. When I found out one of them was no longer a junior prophet and asked why, the conversation was immediately changed.
    Only when I left did I find out from another ex-disciple that she had begun manifesting herself, right there in the prayer line in full view of everyone. Whether this is true or not, I dont know because I was not there. But it does explain why she was suddenly not allowed to pray for people, and also why no one would tell me why she’s not a junior prophet.
    I dont know what happened with the other girl, but I know she also wasn’t a “junior prophet” anymore.

    For the wisemen themselves, I know nothing about and dont want to drift into speculation. I know Harry, we were both friends and new disciples when I was there. He is a very pleasant guy, and I can tell you he really had a heart for the Lord (not meaning he doesnt have now, its just that this was all years ago).
    Daniel was a guy who I kept away from. He had his nice moments, but then again he had his moments which caused me to keep my distance. I wont go into them because it probably really was just down to cultural differences. Also cos he seemed to be part of TB Joshua’s “inner circle”, and I was the new guy who questioned everything 😉

    Soe seems to be a better person to ask for more details on the “Wisemen”

    • Actually i forgot about racine. Also someone who i was wary of but again, i wont go into details because it could be cultural thing or even an age difference. I know he was, or still is engaged to the former ex junior prophet i mentioned above. When i left it had been somethong like 7 years engagement. Dont know if the engagement is off or if they still are fiances…but they had both been waiting for tbj to give them permission to marry.
      As a matter of fact i know of at least one other couple who are disciples who have been waiting to get permission to marry too. When i was part of the uk branch they were urging me to fly my girlfriend to meet daddy too so we could get his approval. Needless to say, we canned that idea and are happily married today 🙂
      seriously, any disciple reading this should just go ahead and tie the knot. I love being married!

  23. Thank you Giles for replay.

    Do you think it is good if I will try to visit SCOAN to see by my own eyes the things you wrote about? Are they generally open to send an invitation for a trip to Lagos by info@…or they use cold ignorance as someone mentioned?

    What do you think about prophecy gift that is in SCOAN?
    Wise men use prophesy gift as well now. Are they anointed by TB Joshua ?

    Gretta

  24. Last time I went there, it cost £1200 that Im never going to see again, so no I would strongly urge you not to go to something I KNOW is a cult. I’ve been a visitor many times, so had my mother. As you know, I also ended up living there too – all because I believed that it was a place where I could get close to the Lord, where I could hear from God.
    Jesus does not live in Nigeria, and He can answer your prayers wherever you are. You dont need to to include TB Joshua in any way.

    Going there to obtain facts could be tricky. Just be aware that only the disciples who are assigned to handle visitors will be allowed to speak to you. As a disciple, only “visitor co-ordinators” were allowed to interact with visitors. So if you approach any of them, notice that they will make an excuse to leave, especially if you ask them difficult questions about the ministry.
    You will definately be in an atmosphere that suggests the church is amazing. You will spend the entire week, all day, every day, watching videos and sermons by TB Joshua, and it all culminates in the Sunday service at the end of the week.

    Whether they say yes or no to an invitation depends on just how sick you are. They not interested in people who they can delcare “healed” without anyone seeing proof. A friend of mine’s cousin with a brain tumour was not allowed to come. He died soon after.

    I dont believe they are “prophecies” at all, but divination, which is seeing into the future via the occult. Christians are not the only one’s who can tell the future. Witch doctors, fortune tellers, they all can as well. TB Joshua’s prophecies do not always come true, as in the case with my mother. She followed TB Joshua’s advice and died.
    Also, to be honest I dont see the point in TB Joshua’s “prophecies”. For e.g. he will mention a famous young woman dying of heart failure. 5 months later, Brittney Murphey died. Or he will mentions a plane going to crash. It still crashes. So….whats the purpose? The only time I am aware of of him trying to help is with the case of Michael Jackson.
    The other thing I notice about his prophecies is that they are so vague. He mentioned one time about some big fire, and an “H”, or something like that. Then Hollywood studios had a big fire.
    Then there was the time when he said something would happen at a place with part of the name being “Hood”. That was before an American soldier at Fort Hood shot all those people.
    I just dont see the point. Its fortune-telling, divination.

    Yes, wisemen, junior prophets, everyone with any type of authority to preach or pray or do anything is from TB Joshua. NO ONE does their own thing.

    To be honest, I cant really do anything to stop you going. What I can say is 1) be aware that SCOAN are very concerned with how they are seen to the world, so what visitors see and experience is all controlled.
    and
    2), ask if TB Joshua sins. MAKE SURE THEY ANSWER A SIMPLE YES OR NO.

  25. Giles,

    Thank you for replay once again.

    You mean £1200 for fly ticket . Hmmm…Closer to me and cheaper is UK and I know that in London is SCOAN branch. When I am in London I may try to find the place on Sunday. I noticed also that there is big family involved in the SCOAN ministry. The family name is Tong, for example Fiona Tong, Ruth Tong, Chris Tong. Many times EmmanuelTv showed their names in the past, maybe not now. I noticed that on Sunday service it looks like disciples run out from camera in order to be not captured by it. Going back to the family I mentioned they used to travel to Russia with Anoited Water as was shown on EmmanuelTV. Yes, I can say that SCOAN attract my attention because I am hungry for God. As far as I am concern the couple that run the UK branch they are former disciples as well. Is it true?

    • Hi Gretta. If you are hungry for God, don’t spend money going to Nigeria. Spend a fraction of the cost on some bible studies and a concordance.

      Find some christian friends where you live and study the bible and pray together.

      Go to a recognised church where you are, where the leaders are themselves subject to authority or mentoring from other pastors and established christians.

      Pray to God about everything in your life – from thanking him for each new day, the trees in your neighbourhood, your neighbours and their families, to the point where you close your eyes at night knowing that he is with you and loves you truly.

      Buy some recordings of worship music and listen to it at home.

      Be open to God and allow him to use you and if you feel he is calling you to take a particular course of action, check it out in the bible (does it accord with scripture) and ask the leaders of your church.

      And if you want solid teaching, just turn to the bible. Arthur Wallace, a respected christian, church leader and writer in the UK once preached by simply reading Ephesians out – as he said, it didn’t need explaining or anything adding to it.,

      Yes, God is in Nigeria, but he is also in your heart. You won’t hear him any better in Nigeria than you can at home.

  26. Yes, I know the Tongs.
    There was another son who ran the uk branch with his wife. Lots of people left at that time. You dont hear about them because they have been disowned by the others for speaking out against TB Joshua. The wife is another woman who accused TB Joshua of raping her.

    For saying that about TB Joshua, the family have made it clear they wanted nothing to do with their son or his wife anymore, just like my friend sent me an email that she wanted nothing to do with me either. TB Joshua is a great divider among Christians.

    Although I feel uncomfortable with commenting in this way, its another example of how not all is as it seems with that “church”. That family turned on one of their own, because TB Joshua told them to. They have no idea of what happened to their eldest son, or of their grandchild.
    Again, I cant stop you from going, but this is another thing that you should be aware of whats gone on behind the scenes before. As loving and caring as they may seem, make sure you ask where their oldest son is. They have no idea. The love depends on if you are for TB Joshua, or against him.

  27. hi jenson.
    in regards to your comment above about faith pleasing God, its all referring to having faith in the Lord. for example if you have a bad situation and pray to God, believe it will work out ok no matter what it looks like. “we live by faith,not by sight.”

    it does not apply to the discernment of false teachers or cult leaders. if it were, the church would be wide open to deception.
    anyone would be able to start their own cult, and christians who live by faith not by sight would be obliged to ignore any signs that its wrong, and simply believe.

    if we are to live by faith and not by sight regarding determining who is from God and who is a false prophet, why did the Lord warn us so many times to be wary of false teachers, wolves in sheeps clothing?

  28. @Giles

    I know this for a long while now… If someone leaves the ministry… people kick you out of their lives… you don’t contact them anymore.

    you have been a disciple… have you always contacted your family/friends outside the ministry while being there?

    Is it strictly not allowed? Does TBJ give the instruction not to do it?

    • @ Jenson – re your point above… “can you name me one minister that you think is a true man of God?”

      I think you might be missing the point… Jesus didn’t come to earth and completed all the work on the cross so we run after other men. We have everything we need in Him and in his Word. Everyone sins! But it is only through the blood of Jesus that we can call God our Father. And when we become Christians we become part of His family – men and women of God.

      I would ask you the same question I’ve asked elsewhere on this sight… why feel the need to run after fallible ‘men of God’ or look for a place where there are signs and wonders? Isn’t Jesus enough? Is your salvation not the greatest miracle of all? Did Jesus not say that he is our high priest? Why do you need another mediator?

      I think sometimes we think we can’t have a relationship with Jesus without the help of some sort of other spiritual authority. This is not true. We have Jesus and His Word. It is all we need.

    • Hey Someone…

      I’m not saying that you should name me someone that you should run after. Simply a Pastor.

      After Jesus left the earth…. Churches was establishes… If you read the book of Acts… I do believe that all we need is Jesus and His Word and the Holy Spirit will be our guide…

      But Jesus never said that there should not be Pastors… Some are called to full time ministry… Imagine if everyone was like you and me? would this world be saved? NO!!!?

      That’s why God calls people to be a shining light to this dark world. The days of Paul was way after Christ…. Now to rephrase my question again…. Name a Paul of our day? Or would you say that people like that is no longer needed? lol

      TBJ says “The book of Acts is not just mere history but a pattern of what Christ wants the church to be like today”

      Jenson… 🙂

      • jenson, we do not need “big names” like benny hinn or tb joshua- ppl who scoan would dub as “the Paul of our day”. You mentioned that God calls specific ppl to be shinning lights…are we not all to be shinning lights?
        i am ver worried by your statement “imagine if everyone was like you and me, would the world be saved?NO!”
        why do believe this? this is scoan mentality- the average christian just isnt good enough when compared with TB Joshua or his disciples.

      • Hey Giles…

        What I mean is simple… we as Christians are all shining lights yes… I’m not saying that God can’t use us to save others… I’m not saying that it only takes a great minister of God to do God’s work….

        The reason I said “you and me” was that for those that are called to only preach the Gospel… like a pastor. Those who dedicate themselves to do God’s work and not working for man…. like many of us….

        we have our own work place… we can share the Gospel there no problem… but there’s a difference between me… and say…. Reinhard Bonnke… We have different callings…. I’m not saying He is better than me or anything… but God does use Him more because of His calling to save souls.

        Without people like the above mentioned…. millions of souls would still be lost.

        The reason that I’m trying to get any of you to mention one is because…. if you so much against TBJ…. why not speak anything bad about other ministers too? or are they perfect according to the scriptures you all mentioned?

        🙂

      • Hi Jenson,
        I have to agree with Giles. You said we have to name a Paul of our day. It depends on what you mean.

        1) There was only one Paul and there will never be another.
        2) Miracles happen every day in churches all over the world, but the difference is that these things happen when ordinary people pray for ordinary people. God does something great and the person is healed. It doesn’t get recorded and posted on youtube. The greatest miracle of all is the salvation of one person’s soul!
        3) The same applies for people being delivered from sin and bondage. There is no circus and shouting etc. Just people praying for one another and the Holy Spirit (which is not the spirit of chaos) works there and then. No cameras needed. Happens every day all over the world.

        My honest opinion is that searching for someone like TBJ reveals a lot about the person’s motives.
        1) Is Jesus & His Father enough? If yes – why TBJ?
        2) Is the HS enough? If yes – why TBJ?
        3) Is your church enough? Then why TBJ? Why not give your own pastor the same support you give TBJ. I bet he needs it.

        “Or would you say that people like that is no longer needed? ”
        Absolutely, unequivocally, YES! We don’t need them. We have Jesus.

        Don’t believe the lie – satan is the father of lies who want you to believe that you need something more. That more becomes your idol and your god and will ultimately distract from Christ. Faith in Jesus is ALL you need!

      • Hi Jensen. Following on from Someone Somewhere, yes miracles happen today.

        When she was 8 days old my daughter became seriously ill and was rushed into hospital with breathing problems. They woke me one night because they thought she was going to die. The next day, she was still very sick and I was in pieces. The nurses knew I was a christian and suggested I go to chapel – I did and the pastor came and prayed with me. Something happened then, I became calm and was able to trust God, when I hadn’t before. THAT was a miracle!

        But she didn’t get any better – and my church promised to pray at a special prayer meeting.

        That evening the doctor came in as he was very worried about her – he took some blood for futher tests as previous tests had shown high salt levels. This was about 7.30pm when the prayer meeting was starting. He came back about 10pm which was when the church prayer meeting broke up – he looked at Erin and turned to me with a look of surprise – ‘she’s looking better’.

        The next day the blood test results came back, all was normal. The hospital gave her no treatment other than oxygen and feeding her by tube. But ordinary people prayed and she got better. It may be coincidence but coincidences like that I like! The church did it again a year later, when another baby from the church nearly died after swallowing meconium (baby poo) during birth, they prayed and he got better when the prospects really were not good.

        No annointed water, no special ‘Man of God’ or junior prophets, just prayerful men and women. No video on You Tube. Just one of probably thousands of miracles that day that pass us by unnoticed.

        Jensen, one day your prayer may save someone’s life and you don’t need to do anything other than be who you are, a faithful, God loving, God dependent christian.

      • @Claire…

        That’s a good post, I agree with you 100%

        I have many testimonies similar to that too. but why are you telling me this though?

        I never said in any of my posts that you should go to TBJ or the SCOAN for healing/salvation or to any minister. People chasing men of God instead of Jesus is doing the wrong thing.

        Do you honestly think that I don’t pray?

        What is wrong with me saying “men of God” and “Paul of our day”? the bible said it.

        “Be Holy, for I am Holy” Peter was saying that we should look at his life. Why can’t I look at others?

        I explained more below.

        Jenson 🙂

  29. He does not forbid people to email, no. There is alot of pressure to though, and the disciples can make it very very difficult to get permission to go on the internet.

    I made a point of staying in touch. The disciples would put alot of pressure on me (by this I mean 5 people arguing with me at a time) to cut ties. They would say things like “they have not been able to help you before. If they had, you would not have come here”, and “you should not allow them to break your focus”.
    Families are seen as a hinderance, and SCOAN are seen as your new family. Thats why I would get in trouble for not addressing them as “brother”, or “sister”. E.g. I would not say “brother Jenson”. I would just say “Jenson”.

    The internet access requires a pass from TB Joshua first, like everything else. If you wanted to email, you needed to write on a bit of paper “PASS TO EMAIL”. You then queued outside the office, for anything from a few minutes to a several days. When you got it signed, you show the disciples running the email department, and they will take your pass and say “ok, we will confirm it”. They will then go and repeat the process all over again, show “Daddy” and then when he says yes, I did sign it, then you can use the internet for half an hour.
    Theoretically this is how it is done, though in reality as soon as you give them your pass it might be the last you see of it. Lots of times I would have to start all over again. So a simple task like a 5 minute email could end up being extremely time consuming.

    They are alot more lenient on newer disciples who have just arrived. But as time goes on, they will at some stage address the amount of contact you are having with your family. Most disciples end up agreeing. Some of the old timers there had not been in contact with their family for a very, very long time.
    The other way is to pay $5.00 for half an hour, but because none of the disciples have any of their own money, I always had to email via the pass method.

    I have never heard TB JOshua forbid anyone to get in touch, so lets be clear on that. But he does encourage it. I have heard him say in disciples meetings how “you will fail here if you keep in touch with your people”.

    • When my friend Anna and her family were in Lagos I tried to write to them. Her husband told me after she died that in 12 months at SCOAN the only letters they received were from the Tax man! Also they ‘lost’ their address book while they were there. He seemed to think someone at SCOAN had the book. This was back in 2003, before the days of smartphones.
      My personal experience is of an organisation that separated members from their families.

      • Well the first time I went as a visitor they lost my plane tickets. They were found in the bin. Serious!

  30. @Giles…

    I mentioned faith there because… what may seem like a wolf in sheep clothing could be a man after God’s own heart. Even prophet Samuel didn’t think David would be the chosen one….

    I’m not saying that we should do everything with a physical blind eye, no. But looking at “signs” on the outside does not always prove anything. You need to see what God sees 1st before you will know the real truth about it.

    Faith is not just about believing that there is an invisible God… but it’s about following His ways…. In Him we live… move… and have our being 🙂

    your last post….

    While I was there… on my 1st visit, I had to use the email as well. But TBJ gave instructions that I was to use the internet access anytime because of the situation I was in.

    They(the disciples) didn’t like it much as they kept telling me not to be long. I kept telling them that TBJ said I could spend as much time here and they should tell him… haha!

    I knew about the pass thing but didn’t know it’s that crazy!

    There was a lady disciple I know… she’s still there… and her parents went to visit her… but when they got there… she was sent back to her country…. that was really weird…. but TBJ spoke to the parents (they were probably furious). But after that it went well.. and the parents continues to visit at least 2 times a year.

    🙂

  31. If you’re Dutch, (Jensen a Dutch name?), then I might have met the lady you are speaking about. Pretty? Brown curly hair? Blue eyes? Cant remember her name though, think it began with an M. Anyway, thats a little off the topic.

    “But looking at “signs” on the outside does not always prove anything.”
    Jesus says “You shall know them by their fruit”.

    Im a little confused. If we aren’t to judge, if we aren’t to listen to other people’s testimonies, if we aren’t to look at the outward signs and fruits, then how are we to discern if the local visiting evangelist in town is from God or not? You mentioned how we need to see what God sees first before we can see the truth about it. Agreed. What I can see about an individual needs to align with God’s Word.
    Does he drink? No.
    DOes he smoke? No.
    Does he preach Jesus? Yes.
    Is he violent, and if so, is he violent towards women? Yes.
    Has he cheated on his wife? Debatable.
    Does he deny cheating on his wife? No.
    Does he know the Bible, well? Yes.
    Does he have supernatural powe
    Have sinners come to repentance as a result of his preaching? Yes.
    Do they do regular baptisms for all these new Christians? No.
    Do they do regular communion, like other churches? No.
    Does he admit he is a sinner? No.
    Does he treat his enemies with love? No. (beware of blasphemers)
    Does he regard speaking against himself as blasphemy? Yes.
    Are other visiting pastors allowed to preach at his church? No.
    Are there secretive elements within his church? Yes.
    Are the churches finances independently accounted? No.
    Does he give money to the poor? Yes.
    Does he give money to the poor in public? Yes.
    Do Christians travel to him for him to pray for them? Yes.
    Are Christians divided over this man? Yes.
    Are Christian families divided over this man? Yes.

  32. Hello ian.
    Are you saying God made a generation without Men of God?
    Can our generation be so different?

    • God sent Jesus. Jesus is the only man of God (or “God man” to be more precise) for this generation. Through Jesus sinners are saved and made righteous. I need a saviour, you need a saviour, TB Joshua needs a saviour, the pope needs a saviour. That saviour is Jesus. We’re all in the same boat! Of course God uses different people in different ways, some of us are used more significantly than others, but this man of God nonsense diminishes the role of Christ.

      Anyway, I shouldn’t be the one having to justify this. You and your fellow scoanites are the ones with the unusual beliefs, you justify to us how you support this position of man of God scripturally. There is only one use of the phrase “man of God” in the new testament, and that is used in a totally different way to how SCOAN use it.

    • Yes we all need a saviour…. But explain what happened in the book of Acts? why are some called to be pastors… teachers… prophets? This was all after the crucifixion.

      Another question to you all… Do you even think there’s a need to go to church?

      Jens…. 🙂

      • Eg. As an arm you don’t go to visit the body… you are part of the body. If that makes sense. … as a Christian you are part of the ecclesia, the body of Christ… I.e. the church. Of course you need to gather with other Christians as the one body, because the Bible tells us not to neglect this. Within this body each person has different gifts (i.e. teaching etc.). One gift, however, is not greater than the other. They are all to be used to encourage the body.

        We are all priests under the High Priest, Jesus – led by the HS.

  33. Hi Doi and Jensen,
    I was wondering if you could clarify something for me with the “Man of God” terminology.
    Im now in a small church of around 40 ppl. We sing songs together, read the Bible, listen to the preaching. Our pastor prays for people every now and again and sometimes there are testimonies of healing, or answers to prayer.
    Would you describe such a pastor as a “Man of God”?

    I must say, I am again very concerned about a question you made – “Are you saying God made a generation without Men of God?”
    We are the men of God, Doi. You, me, Soe, Jenson, Ian – everyone who bows the knee to the Lord Jesus. Its called the church.

    What is your view of the secret church in China, and the Sudan, and Afghanistan? Christians are martyred there regularly. Are those pastors and missionaries not “men of God”?

  34. hi Jens.
    Yes, definately a need to go to church. As well as it being mentioned in Hebrews 10, I know from personal experience the effect it has on my life when I was not meeting with other believers. I have a feeling youre going somewhere with that question?

    What happened in Acts, yes its a pattern of the church today. There are thousands of pastors, all over the world. There are thousands of prophecies given, and testimonies of prophetic words coming true. There are thousands of people with healings. The Holy Spirit is not limited to just one guy. So calling TB Joshua into question is not the end of the world, it doesnt mean “our generation is different”, and that “God has made this generation witout men of God”.

  35. Claire – thanks for sharing your story with us. I’ll admit I cried a little reading it. This is the kind of healing I believe in – Christians coming together to pray for healing because they love and care for someone, not for their own glory or in order to use the testimony to promote their own ministry, Sure, there is a place for large scale healings a la Acts but this story (and so many others I could tell you) back up what I believe – that people are healed when Christians pray with love, compassion and -yes- desperation. None of us on here know the names of the people that saved your daughter’s life but God knows, and that’s what counts.

    Here’s a question for you all. TB Joshua’s “healings” sometimes fail – is that because his motives are impure? i.e. greed, wanting prestige and material gain rather than the glory of God etc…

  36. What I mean by “man of God” is simply a leader. Many churches call their pastor “man of God”… I don’t think it’s wrong but would not call someone that to their face.

    Paul used the term “man of God” in the book of 1st Timothy. Why can’t I use it now? Paul was a spiritual father to Timothy. Is there something wrong with that? Yes we have the Holy Spirit to lead us… but there are gifted leaders out there to help those to grow spiritually.

    Ian, if “Jesus is the only man of God” then the bible is not true?

    Why did they bring the sick… demon possessed… to Paul when he entered the city? You guys would have probably said the same thing about Paul then? Why Paul? and not just any Christian? my answer… Because of Paul’s calling.

    I never said that TBJ was the only guy? I have many mentors if I can call them that… I read their books and listen to their teachings… follow their life and learn from how they handle situations. “Mentorship is wisdom without the pain” – quoted from one of my mentors 🙂 not TBJ

    Why do I follow these guys? If you want to be the best football player… you have all you need to be the best… but why don’t you want to learn from others?

    Yes the Holy Spirit will be there to guide and direct us but God also uses people to help us too.

    Jenson
    🙂

    • Jenson has a point about the “man of God” phrase, it is in Timothy. I dont think you dont pray, Jenson. To be honest you come across as more level headed, and I am glad to hear you listen to other mentors. I also agree with you about there seems to be specific people, ministers, “men of God” for arguements sake, who the Lord is using. In my opinion, the late David Wilkerson was one. (Cross and the Switchblade, amazing testimony). Another guy is Greg Laurie, though he might not be so well known.
      Anyway, Benny Hinn and TB Joshua are two people I have reconsidered. TB Joshua for the above reasons, and for Benny Hinn I have my reasons for him too. My point is, I dont have a problem learning from others. Like you mentioned, footballers, etc.
      My problem is if a leader does not live up to scrutiny. As much as this Greg Laurie guy talks about Jesus, and leads people to the Lord, if I hear women keep accusing him of the same thing – i’d expect some kind of response. If David Wilkerson came out with a statement that he does not sin, I’d be alarmed.

      Its not just TBJ I’m picking on. Like I mentioned, I’m re-thinking Benny Hinn after I saw a clip where he placed a curse on “anyone who comes against his ministry”. (http://youtu.be/i-A51ltVq7I)
      Benny Hinn has his curse…TB Joshua releases Beware of Blasphemers.
      Jesus said to love our enemies.

    • Jenson – my earlier post was picking up a point in someone somewhere’s comment that miracles happen everyday. He was picking up on your point about needing a Paul for today -that we don’t need a special man (or special things) to bring about miracles because we have the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. It kind of follows on also from Gretta’s posting about wondering whether to go to SCOAN in Nigeria because she is hungry for God.
      Many of the people I know who went to Nigeria went there because of the (alleged) miracles – similarly I know people who also went to Toronto and Pensacola. The difference in the latter two cases was that those people came back and maintained the relationships with their families and friends – whereas many of those who went to SCOAN seemed to disappear into a virtual black hole. What they all had in common however, was that they didn’t notice the miracles happening all around them, they sought the sensational not the mundane.
      When it comes to learning from other christians, yes, it is good to do so. I’ve learned loads from a catholic lady who pitches up to our anglican house group – she has a totally different perspective on God from me! But the thing always is to test what other people say back against the bible. For me, the bible is warning me about people like TBJ and organisations like SCOAN.
      These comments are off the back of a blog examining whether TBJ aligns with the biblical description of a false christ. It is good to have mentors Jenson, just be sure you know who it is you are learning from.

    • Hi Jenson. You’re correct, Paul does refer to Timothy as a man of God. That is what I was referring to when I said:

      There is only one use of the phrase “man of God” in the new testament, and that is used in a totally different way to how SCOAN use it.

      Timothy was like a spiritual son to Paul, and Paul was the one calling Timothy a man of God! It was the more senior leader calling a mentee a man of God as a way of encouraging and building him up. This is the total opposite of the SCOAN way of using “man of God” as a phrase of adulation only to be used in reference to TB Joshua. The example of Paul and Timothy is the same as any christian being a man (or woman) of God.

      As for lots of churches using the phrase to refer to their pastors, I think that’s very much an african thing. It’s not something I’m familiar with at all within UK Christianity. It’s also in my opinion unbiblical whether it’s happening in SCOAN or anywhere else for the reasons I have already explained.

  37. “Man of God” this terminology was used in Old Testament. Old Testament is gone. Prophet of New Testament are different.

    Look at William Brnanham who has similar gift like TB Joshua, he had words of knowledge. He could speak of hidden things of people lifes and he prayed for healing. His people had similar problem that have now ex-disciples of TBJ.

    William Branham because of his pride failled at his end of ministry.

    The same things are catching such people again and again. First pride, thinking about himself as a Big Star, being a Showman, being admired Celebriety, cult beheviours etc.

    These are the things that can easilly destroy them without conscious that they are in it.
    So be carrefull.

    Look at new site of SCOAN now.

    More and more biger pictures, better collar, better tie knots, better juckets, better shoes, pictures improved and polish by photoshops, but where is Jesus. Is Jesus bigger or more ond more small in apearance. Where is humility.

    John the Baptist the prophet, did he wears in the Bible soft and elegance clothing. Prophet Elisha and Elijah with camel skin clothes?

    Look into Bible. Is it true that everywhere are TV sets, even in TBJ office. What for? Everything is recorded even first steps of visitors. What for?

    Be carefull. Listen what they say but do not copy it.

  38. Pingback: The Gospel according to Temitope: Is TB Joshua adding to the Bible? « TB Joshua Watch

  39. I dont knw how people can be decieved by the devil so easily, @ times its hard to believe that someone would actually believe that the bible is still being written. When Jesus Christ died on the cross, his last words were, ” It is finished.” That was it, he did the job for us all we have to do right now is to believe in him and spread the GOOOOOD NEWS. Please people stop being deceived, Lets get down on our knees and pray to God, he will show us the way.

  40. Everyone should be careful making derogatory comment about TB Joshua.This is a complex spiritual matter of a high sensitivity . TB Joshua has demonstrated some qualities of scriptural references. His simplicity, preaching against sin, attributing all miracles to our lord Jesus Christ and his generosity simply speaks for itself. Evils were spoken against our lord Jesus Christ. Some accused him of using the spirit of Beelzebub. In that particular circumstance, our lord Jesus Christ warned against a sin that can never be forgiven. That is a sin against the Holy Ghost. Have you ask yourself: What if the power TB Joshua uses comes from the Holy spirit? That means you have just sinned against the holy spirit. It is better to be quite rather than speaking about something you simply don’t know. He has not done wrong to anyone to warrant unfounded accusation rather he is using Christ’s name in healing and casting out demons. Our Lord Jesus Christ said in his word, A house divided against itself cannot stand, meaning Devil cannot cast out devil. TB Joshua should be applauded for his non-emphasis on material wealth compared to lots of other ministers who flaunt their luxuries and flamboyant lifestyle with emphasis on prosperity.Be warned!!!! you may be speaking against the Holy Spirit. The most important thing in Christian faith is not the miracle of prosperity, but of complete surrender in obedience to Christ abstaining from all appearance of evil.

    • Hi Isaac. I get where you’re coming from, but how do we follow scriptures warning us of false prophets if we’re constantly worried that doubting one of these false prophets might possibly make us guilty of commiting the unforgivable sin? If you interpret Matthew 12 in that way, you have to reinterpret many other scriptures (or ignore them altogether) to make it make sense. I believe the issue in Matthew 12 is different because it is Jesus (the son of God, a perfect man) being accused. To raise a question or accusation against anyone else (imperfect, sinful) could never, in my opinion make you guilty of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. I appreciate your concern for us, but I’m not worried – I’m speaking against a man, not the Holy Spirit.

      As for the devil not being able to cast out a devil, you’re right – but the devil is a deceiver, who’s to say he can’t give the impression of casting out a devil?

  41. Mark 16: 15-18. 15. And he said them, go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18. They shall take up serpent; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover.

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