The story of “Cautious”: Why did he leave SCOAN? Part 3

This is the third and final part of a testimony from “Cautious”,  in which he gives the reasons for his difficult decision to leave SCOAN after years of involvement. 

7) Some good teaching, but some very strange doctrine

Now at SCOAN I believe I received wonderful teaching and there are some of the quotable quotes that I found very helpful and some of them that I would perhaps remember for the rest of my life. One quotable quote that I came to love so much is the following: “Mind management is the first priority for an overcomer”. There is so much contained in this quote, a whole message in itself. A quotable quote that goes hand in hand with this one is the following: “ What happens in your mind will happen in time”. These quotes are so true. What does it mean? It means that everything we decide to do starts with a thought. Whatever thoughts we entertain will happen in time. Therefore if you can control your mind, you can control your actions. Therefore one should be careful what he looks at and what he listens to etc. because what you look at and what you listen to will influence your thoughts which in turn will influence your actions. I mean this is great, but there are also some teaching which I never agreed with, although the teaching I did not agree with was more the exception to the rule and not the norm. If I came across such teaching that I did not agree with which I already mentioned to be the exception/rarely occurred, I would just think to myself that there are no perfect church and you should take  that which is good and then reject that which might not be so good. I mean we were encouraged to make God’s Word the Standard for our lives and to measure everything against the Word. I never mentioned that I didn’t agree with some of the teachings, but in my heart I did not accept the following teaching that I am about to mention, because for me it did not line up with the Word of God in terms of what I believe about salvation.

This teaching is as follows: “Salvation and Baptism in the Holy Spirit is co-extensive”. What? Come again? Ask any disciple to explain to you what that means. I doubt if they themselves would be able to explain that to you. Does this mean that you can’t consider yourself saved

if you are not baptised in the Holy Spirit? Ask them how many of them are baptised in the Holy Spirit? They will tell you that they are waiting on it. They believe that only TB Joshua is baptised in the Holy Spirit. Junior Prophets believe that they have only received an impartation of the Holy Spirit when TB Joshua anointed them to pray for the sick, but definitely not baptised in the Holy Spirit. Now if they believe that salvation and baptism in the Holy Spirit is co-extensive and they believe that only TB Joshua is baptised in the Holy Spirit, are they then not questioning their salvation because of this teaching? These are as a matter of fact considered to be part of the infallible teachings of TB Joshua, isn’t it? Now ask them if they are saved. If you get to know them quite well personally they will tell you that they are not sure and this I believe can be attributed to this teaching.

They will however not be honest with you about it though. They will give you an answer like it is not for me to decide, I should leave it to God. Now I am not saying for one minute that all the disciples are questioning their salvation, For example, I didn’t because I did not accept this teaching in my heart.

But what about those that accept this teaching? Does the Word not say that we would know when we are the children of God? I invite correction or an explanation of this teaching here and I am not sarcastic or arrogant here, I am dead sincere and would 100% accept it if I am interpreting this message incorrectly. Once again I am not judging here, I am communicating why I decided to leave the ministry and it is because of strange doctrines like this, that even the then pastors of the church struggled to explain to us.

Other unusual things at SCOAN:

Baptism? Yeah, in Nigeria there is a majestic pool for the purpose of baptism, yet I have never seen anyone getting baptised, not in Lagos or at any other branch of the church.

Communion? Yes, I had communion several times at SCOAN, but that would probably be a couple of times a year or so, and I am not exaggerating.

9) Vile and malicious personal attacks

I will come up for SCOAN here and I think I would be doing the leadership of SCOAN a big favour if I would actually email them to make them aware of a couple of loose cannons again that is damaging the reputation of SCOAN big time in my opinion. I don’t take these loose cannons as the general views of SCOAN. I am talking about the shocking comments on the Watch Prophet Tb Joshua site. I mean calling people derogatory names like uncircumcised baboons, prostitutes, lunatics and mentioning their actual names and portraying their views or assumptions as facts. Expressions like “this sick couple”. Accusing people of having lying demons etc. These are not only bold statements but I think incredibly vile and full of malice and like I said very damaging for the reputation of SCOAN. But like I said and I want to mention this to the public that I don’t believe this is SCOAN’s general views, but the views of a couple of loose cannons. I hope however SCOAN would take action here as it does appear that SCOAN is losing control over some of their workers and if they are left to continue in this fashion the public might start to believe that SCOAN is actually supporting their views.

Once again another reason why I don’t want to be associated with SCOAN any longer. In the time when I was still actively involved in SCOAN we never tolerated such kind of behaviour as mentioned above. I am shocked that SCOAN is allowing it and I would not want to be associated with such workers that brings the ministry in disrepute.

Conclusion:

Am I claiming SCOAN to be a sect? No.
Am I anti-SCOAN? No.
Do I believe that there are genuine believers in SCOAN? Yes.
Do I still have family and friends involved in SCOAN? Yes.
Do I love these friends and family very much? Yes.
Did I choose to break ties with these people because they decided to stay at SCOAN: No.
Did some of them break ties with me because I left: Yes.

88 thoughts on “The story of “Cautious”: Why did he leave SCOAN? Part 3

  1. @Cautious,

    I’m surprised to find here that you claim to have observed communion at SCOAN. I never did, nor did anyone during my time there. Was it done privately for foreign visitors or for the entire church ? And why are they not forthcoming on these questions of water baptism and the Lord’s supper ? We already know that this charlatan frowns on water baptism, but claims Spirit baptism which he alone has. This is a BIG LIE of the Devil ! Spirit baptism is a gift of God, freely given to those who ask for it. Luke 11:13. T. B. Joshua claims to be the carrier of the Holy Ghost, which is plain balderdash, to say the least.
    And, yes, we can be sure of our salvation. The word of God gives us plenty of assurance about our salvation and we don’t need any charlatan to tell us whether were saved or not. This is how they’re able to keep people in subservience to them and in perpetual bondage. John 3:16, Romans 10:9, 1 John 5:13.
    Joshua claims to know God but does not keep God’s commands, and so is a liar and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4.

  2. Thanks for all that you have written. I think that I understand your caution and I respect your right to be as cautious as you need to be at the moment, but the evidence that you have given does not really match the conclusions that you have drawn,
    Maybe it is because I have been reading the information on this site since it started and the things that you have said have been reported by other people as well. It is very interesting to hear your individual experience. I can see that blaming some of the most offensive actions on a couple of “loose canons” means you do not have to say accuse TBJoshua of being behind the behaviour, and it may be that you need to keep yourself safe from being attacked and accused.
    However for people to continually attribute the actions and behaviour to “loose canons” or “culture” just continues the confusion. The organisation that is headed by TBJoshua has strange doctrine, treats ex members appallingly, does not foster good relationships within families, claims to be the source of salvation, is not accountable, does no allow its followers to have an independent mind. TBJoshua is the leader and the buck stops with him. He does not stop the adulation that is given to him, in fact by the publishing of his picture he actively encourages it. For all of this there is evidence. In addition such serious allegations have been made against him that I for one cannot sit on the fence and say I am not “for or against” for the sake of all the people who have experienced all the things that I have just listed I have to say strongly and publicly that I am against TBJoshua.
    Cautious I wonder how it feels for you to have written all of this and still be unable to make that conclusion
    It will be for God to make the judgement of TBJoshua but for the sake of the people involved and for the sake of the Gospel of Jesus we have to stand against him.

    • @ Madelaine,

      Smart lady, you made good points that are laudable. It’s necessary to take a stand against this great deception in the light of scripture and all the atrocities this charlatan has committed and continues to commit. But I think Cautious is still going through some turmoil in his mind, though he’s made that bold decision to come out of the pit hell. It appears to me that he is “vacillating”.This happens when one is not readily able to identify the man as a false prophet. It requires one to be well-grounded in scripture to make such decision. As a matter of fact, when I left the cult called SCOAN, it took me a long time through the study of scripture and revelations through dreams, to come to the conclusion that I made the right decision. The man is no doubt a son of BELIAL, transforming himself as an angel of light. Jesus said there would be many like him, but you never heard anyone claim to be a false prophet, not even one, but let God be true and every man a liar. Romans 3:4.
      Undoubtedly, many who go to SCOAN are sincere believers who want a greater relationship with God. Regrettably, they end up under great delusion, when they consider the miracles and deliverances and realize it takes some form of ”power” to do these things, and then they mistakenly attribute this to a ” move of God”. It’s hard for them to think otherwise, until they get a “shock” that awakens them from their stupor. For some, this realization may come early and for some late. Others may be trapped forever, unless the Lord intervenes.

      • Further, if one wants a closer relationship with the Lord, SCOAN is definitely not the right place. One of the favorite verses of Joshua is Galatians 5:22-23, but ironically, it is rather the works of the flesh that are evident at SCOAN and not the fruit of the Spirit.

      • I think Cautious makes a good point in his previous comment, that is the difference between SCOAN Lagos and the SCOAN International franchises. While they may all share a similar rotten core, the international branches are not exposing people to the most cult-like aspects of SCOAN. The more controversial teaching is likely to be watered down somewhat to make it more palatable, people aren’t living in commune as they do at Lagos, they have their own lives out side of SCOAN. You could see it as SCOAN-lite. It’s actually very clever, these branches plus Emmanuel TV give a carefully curated view of SCOAN in order to provoke peoples curiosity and suck them in. Then by the time they visit SCOAN Lagos (if they do) they’ve already swallowed everything hook, line and sinker.

  3. “Salvation and Baptism in the Holy Spirit is co-extensive” … this is a ‘Christian’ organisation that teaches that only one man, their leader, has earned salvation?

    CULT!!!

    • This T B Joshua teaches doctrines of demons and SCOAN is a dangerous place to study the word of God with TBJ as the supreme teacher. 1 Timothy 4:1

  4. Madelaine, I hear exactly what you are saying and although I will not boldly proclaim as yet that I believe that SCOAN is a cult, I will definitely agree that there are cult like characteristics and to be honest I am probably not far from admitting that it is. I will agree that by everything that I mentioned that there are a lot of issues here that needs to be addressed and I did not just wake up one morning and came to all these conclusions (talking about the concerns uttered) and I am definitely not blind to what is taking place.

    However I can assure you that by what I know and by what I said I don’t see myself returning to SCOAN ever, but I made it clear from the start that I don’t want to be one of those that point finger (not that I am saying that in this case it is necessarily wrong to do so), but I just choose not to do so. Yes and you are right, I made it very clear from the beginning that I am very careful to offend as I have loved ones still in the ministry and I don’t want to push them away by nullifying what they believe in. I would rather utter my concerns here and let them decide. I also want to make sure that no one can point a finger to me and say that I have been attacking anyone, cause it is easy for them to just nullify my post and copy and paste what they want from my post accusing me that my only aim is to attack the ministry. No, I would rather want to give them an opportunity to answer the questions that were put forward in this post. I think that is fair.

    As far as these loose cannons are concerned, please read what I mentioned about them in an earlier comment on the previous post. Ian asked me the same question and I addressed it there and shed light on what I mean when referring to these loose cannons. Do you remember “SOE”, well here you go, not everyone in SCOAN shares for example his viewpoints. May his viewpoints perhaps be what SCOAN really believes, but maybe just the inner circle that is aware of this – well possibly – I don’t know. What I tried to explain in a previous post is that when I was still part of SCOAN the then pastors kept these loose cannons accountable, but this is not happening anymore with the new leadership. You are right, this does complicate things, because the then pastors did not handle certain situations the same as those ones currently in power. Also remember that those involved in international ministries of SCOAN are not exposed to what those are exposed to in Nigeria. In some ways, perhaps many ways. It is different. For example in these branches there are no sexual allegations, no allegations of people being slapped through the face, much less control, as everyone still go to work and have their own private life aside from church, although it tends to revolve around those attending SCOAN.

    Because of this the SCOAN experience might be quite different for someone that finds himself involved in international branches and those finding themselves at the headquarters. That is one of the main reasons I would say why some people are so much struggling to leave the ministry when it comes to the international branches, because they might justify that these things are not happening in the international branches as such, which is of course wrong, because what is the root to the fruit.

    You see Madelaine then you also need to consider that some people like myself that attended were genuine in their faith and commitment to Christ. I was not involved in any rituals and stuff if you know what I mean. I read my Bible on a regular basis and prayed on a regular basis and honestly made Jesus the centre of my attention. I found the teaching in general to be good (whether copied or not), besides some of the corrupt teaching that I have pointed out. These are not the issues as such why I decided to leave. I left because I realised that one thing is preached and another thing seems to be practised by the overseer. ( loads of issues not addressed, no accountability).Yes fair enough we’ve got the baptism and we’ve got the communion also to consider, which are important aspects. I am just trying to paint you a picture here Madelaine that it is not necessarily just black and white here, a little bit more complicated than that I would say, because although there were flaws I honestly believed that what we were building at SCOAN UK was for the glory of God. I honestly believe that although the then pastors were not perfect, they were honestly in my opinion an inspiration in many aspects and set an example of what it is like to be committed to Christ. Well in hind side, yes, they might perhaps have been deceived in some ways by their own confession, but that I believe that they were sincere, I have no doubt. Yes, I don’t rule out that they might have had pressure on them to sometimes hide certain information and only supply information on a need to know basis and that they did indeed follow TB Joshua’s instructions, but still I believe somehow they managed to be sincere in their love for Christ. Is this just an illusion? Glossy appearance perhaps? I don’t think so, but who knows?

    I know I was going on about the loose cannons, but don’t forget my post at number 2. This is not about the loose cannons and this is the major reason why I decided to leave the ministry.

    Also don’t forget how many times I mentioned that SCOAN did not distance themselves from these comments, they allowed it and also they have allowed unacceptable behaviour that I believe were very damaging to the ministry to continue without any correction or any disciplinary action. I have mentioned that if they don’t address it the general public and myself will accept it to be the general views of SCOAN. You would also notice that I said that I was quite awe struck at how the new leadership of SCOAN was handling situations as this is not the way I came to know SCOAN.

    Well in summary Madelaine, I think the points I raised is more than enough reason to never want to return, but in short what I meant about the loose cannons are that there comments are usually way over the top, comments like that of “SOE” and in this respect I wanted to give SCOAN the benefit of the doubt.

    I hope I have not brought more confusion. I hope this is clear.

    • Hi Cautious I hope that you did not feel that I was criticising because I would not want to do that. I am grateful that you have shared your experience here, and I think that you have spoken with grace and love. I think that we have something in common that there are people we care about who are part of SCOAN. What you have shared has really given me hope that they may start seeing the discrepancies and come to the same conclusion as you have.
      Another thing that I take hope from is that it seems that people who became part of SCOAN because they have a passion for serving Jesus have retained that passion and give honour to the name of Jesus even after their experiences.

  5. @Mr Terrific Yes I have had communion, but it was at one of the international branches of SCOAN. Yes, the whole church took part. Mmm but Mr Terriffic coming to think of it, it was years ago and I think it is more realistic to say that I have had communion twice at SCOAN in all these years than twice a couple of years. Now, I don’t know Mr Terrific but it is a possibility that there were perhaps a lot of pressure on the pastors at the time as I know there were some members that were taking them on about things like communion not taking place or shall we say communion not taking place on a regular basis. I know in general this is not taking place and you are right, never saw communion ever take place in Nigeria.

    • @ Cautious,
      In other words, the “pastors” had to succumb to pressure from the members to have communion. It’s not something that this false Christ endorses. Is he afraid of the blood of Jesus Christ or something ? One thing I know, Satan and his demons hate the blood of Jesus and don’t want to honor the blood.

  6. @Mr Terrific: Doi, Visser and Soe probably busy doing “Adabba” for their comments here, hence no reply. Haha, just joking, hope they have a sense of humour- everything so serious here sometimes. haha. Also Mr Terrific you hit the nail on the head that I still have some questions within about certain aspects and it takes time to work through it all, but like I said I know more than enough to never want to return and yes Madelaine I tried to base all my comments on facts only – so yes you are right, there are evidence here and also I have not really followed this blog from the beginning, but as I read back saw lot of similarities – so apologies if I repeated some of the aspects without realising it was already said or discussed, although I think we had some fresh perspectives on some of these issues here.

    @Ian – great summary here – you nailed it about my understanding about the international branches vs the headquarters.

    @everyone: I wanted to give the perspective above so people can understand and relate more to why people are struggling to leave SCOAN and to get some insight in what people have to sacrifice should they choose to leave. I wanted people to get some insight into the types of inner struggles that a person that are involved needs to wrestle with, questions they have, that needs answering. Outsiders have no idea and probably have very little understanding of what we discuss here as they only know about ETV and the picture portrayed by this channel. I want to mention that even though I realise that it is more black, than black and white, I believe my comment will bring clarity to many that would think, oh but I would have known if it was all black, it would have been obvious. No, it is not the case at all, I’m afraid.

    I suppose I need to give other people the opportunity now to comment, but I might still communicate a couple of things here that I think people struggle with and finds hard to come to grips with, maybe things I still find hard to come to grips with. All I would say is that it took a lot to convince me to leave eventually, but what I know now is overwhelming and I don’t believe I would have been able to live with my conscience, should I have chosen to continue.

    • Doi, Visser and Soe probably busy doing “Adabba” for their comments here, hence no reply. Haha, just joking

      It wouldn’t surprise me if that was actually true with Soe, or at least that he’s been silenced in some way. Since he spilled the beans on TB Joshua’s words being equal to scripture he’s mysteriously vanished. He went from most prolific commenter to nothing overnight.

      I think you’re right in the way you’ve been very upfront and honest about the thought process you’ve been through. That’s bound to be a lot easier to relate to for those on the other side of the fence having similar doubts to you.

  7. Cautious – thank you so much for these posts. What you say is so helpful in knowing how to pray for all those involved.

  8. @Mr Terrific: I have no idea, I was quite a newbie at SCOAN at the time and I know one of the workers had a private meeting with some of the disciples and the pastors about some issues which included Communion, I don’t know exactly what was said, but the worker involved was a friend of mine, so that is why I know about it. He soon left after and I don’t know if there were any other reasons, but I do know that baptism and communion definitely had a role to play in the reasons why he left. If this conversation had anything to do with the fact that they felt there was pressure on them to succumb to communion, I don’t know. This worker however did not elaborate on it at the time, just mentioned it to me – almost a flash in the pan moment and then left soon afterwards.

    @Claire – I am glad you found the comments helpful

    @Mr Terrific – What happened to Benson? Do you know? The SCOAN branch in Austria is still a bit of a mystery to me? Do you know anything about it? I mean I know about the disciple from Austria that died of malaria and I understood the police were involved. Why were the police involved if the reason for death was natural causes and do you have any more information on the branch in Austria?

    • @ Cautious,

      I know Benson and I’m learning about his death for the first time on this site. I don’t really know what happened, but there’s so much shrouded in secrecy at SCOAN and people cannot even discuss issues with one another, even among the so called disciples. And this is another mark of a cult, by the way ! And, if the police were involved, you can be sure there was something fishy. If you’re still struggling with some issues about TBJ, you can make them known on the site or get to me through the moderators and I’d try to help whichever way I can. One thing I know, TBJ is a false prophet who continues to mislead many but judgement has come upon him already. If you’re still wondering if TBJ is a false prophet, ask yourself if he’s ever made one false prediction or prophesy, and that already makes him a false prophet many times over. It takes only one false prophesy to make one a false prophet, apart from many other considerations in scripture. And, like you pointed out, TBJ is deceitful, saying one thing and doing another thing. We used to say TBJ has many different tongues. A deceitful or lying one is the same as a false prophet.

  9. @Madelaine – no offence taken, I fully understand your point and I agree that one should take a stand, can’t be swaying back and forth. I appreciate that you have picked up that I am trying my best to communicate with grace and love and if this reflects in these posts, then mission accomplished. Although I know all these things I am definitely still busy working through some of these issues and these posts are helping me to reflect on it and to find answers to some questions I might still have about certain aspects. There are many sides to some of my posts here then I suppose.

    1) To provide transparency for those that is not so familiar with the ministry – giving them insight in my own personal thought processes and thought processes of some that still attend SCOAN.

    2) To question behaviour and actions in the light of God’s Word and to demand reasons for actions that are not according to Scripture, just search for the truth really.

    3) To work through certain issues I have not come to grips with as yet and in the process with everyone’s help here, help other’s to work through these issues as well.

    yes Madelaine, it is by the grace of God that we can still continue to serve Christ as I am sure that such an experience can leave many question marks,

  10. @ Terrific – yes, thanks. There are certain things I will still communicate here – things I think I know the answer to, but confirmation would help me to put this to rest once and for all. These will definitely also be issues others will be struggling with too and if we can address it here and work it out together, then it will be for the benefit of all.

    • I just wanted to thank you also for your honesty and sensitivity in what you have said. I can really identify with the struggle and the painful experience. I know it is harder the longer and deeper one is involved. Like building a castle on the sand…so hard to leave it.. Especially when you know others are trapped inside. I admire your sincerity. I know I, and also those I know who have been involved have been very sincere. In fact some of the most sincere and most sold out people…at least at first. They changed though. I used to think that sincerity kept one safe, that it was impossible to be deceived if your heart is pure and you only want more of Jesus. It took me a long time to come to terms with
      it.Scripture warns us often enough
      though. It is definitely a process and very painful. I can relate very much to wanting to salvage something positive from it…not so much personally as, as I described it was a jaw dropping revelation for me but for those I have known. I think knowing people who you love and respect are involved is incredibly difficult. It is also a
      common experience of anyone leaving a
      cult or false ministry. I believe that my
      prayer on the prayer line of ” Lord I only
      want what is from you” saved me to a certain extent of any impartation not of God…by His Grace. If you genuinely seek God and want Him above the TB J experience then he will honour that. I believe that is why you have ultimately been able to begin to see this grand deception. Also I know that
      God does not abandon us. He can
      ultimately use our experiences, even if
      they result out of our own
      mistakes/sinfulness for His glory.

      Just for the record.. I have found the testimony on YouTube of a lady called Johanna Michaelsen. She wrote a book some time ago called “the beautiful side of evil” which I am trying to get hold of. It’s worth looking at…. Testimony of how she came out of a movement where there were miracles and she thought Jesus had something to do with it. There are some interesting parallels.

      • @ Hattie,
        Thanks, Hattie ! This is one of the books I read during my recovery from the pit of hell called SCOAN. It’s just confirmation of what Jesus said that there shall be many workers of miracles who’d try to deceive even the very elect. Though they’re genuine miracles, the spirit behind them is demonic and not the Holy Spirit of God. And, Hattie, I’m happy for you that you did not receive any impartation from demons !

      • Thanks Mr Terrific also. It is great to know that book was helpful for you. Are there any others you read? Or any particular scriptures? I kept a record somewhere of ones that came to me or leapt out at me or were given by praying friends…amazing it was..Hope to hear your story if/when the time is right.

  11. Hi Cautious.
    The only thing that bothers me is why you left Scoan. I know you are kind of fair.so lets reason together.i don’t know. but did Scoan actually cut people off their family members? If i may ask what was your experience that made you believe Scoan told them to cut off from their family members? Personal issues like this shouldn’t be attributed to SCOAN.

    • @ Doi,

      Point of correction ! Why do you want answers to questions when both you and Visser, plus your false prophet Temitope, have not answered previous questions ?

    • @ Doi,
      I know your situation, that you’re working under duress and can’t speak up your mind on issues. Though you have the word of God, the Bible, which is the final authority, TBJ must tell you what to say, because SCOAN is for TBJ and not Jesus Christ, you see ? Jesus Christ speaks to us through His word, the Bible, and if TBJ is not saying what Jesus says, do you deny that Temitope Balogun Joshua is not of Jesus Christ but of Satan ? In other words, TBJ is one of the many false Christs Jesus warned us about in Matt 24:24 ?

  12. @ Mr Terrific.
    I actually care about him.knowing he could still be part of Scoan if he was cleared of the truth.besides it
    Would be more matured if we start from the reason he left Scoan before proceeding. Don’t just formulate things please.

    • “he could still be part of SCOAN if he was cleared of the truth” I think you need to clarify that statement Doi unless you wish to imply that SCOAN is a place that is clear of truth.

  13. I am less active because I am bored going around the same and the same circle. I have many wonderfull things to do in my life. By the way : how can I answer your question when you are deleting my post?

  14. @Hattie thanks for your positive comments.

    @Mr Terrific – it is Doi not Doe lol

    @Doi – Welcome back, how was your day? I know you did not ask but I had a good day thank you, just a looooong train ride. Are you cooking any jollof rice tonight? I might do, it has been a long time since I had jollof rice. Haha, Doi I just wanted to make some informal conversation before I gather the strength to post yet another looong post.

    Doi, your question: The only thing that bothers me is why you left Scoan.

    Have you read posts 1, 2 and 3 with heading:The story of “Cautious”: Why did he leave SCOAN? If you have I am not sure how many more points I should raise to explain the reasons I left. Sorry, but I am confused. In the light of what I just said, what exactly are you asking me as I am not sure what else you want me to mention. Are you perhaps insinuating that none of the reasons I gave are valid reasons for leaving SCOAN?

    Doi, do you honestly believe that a mother and father will break contact with their son if not instructed to do so? And let’s say it is the case that they were not instructed to do so, but personally made this decision, does this now mean that these are personal issues that cannot be attributed to SCOAN? We are talking about the leadership of SCOAN here for crying out loud. I told you that I don’t agree that this behaviour is Christ like and I cannot submit to a leadership that make decisions that I believe is in violation of what I believe Christ like behaviour should be like. Once again, Doi, I am not judging here, I mentioned in a previous post that I am far from perfect, but I am reiterating the reasons already given as you are asking for me to provide it again. If the mother and father happens to read this post, you have a son that loves you very much and that is actually on his knees praying for the day when he would be reunited with his family. ( Haha, this is not to play on emotions, this is plainly and simply, a fact).

    Doi and if you for one moment believe that they have not been cut off from their family or even thinking of making a statement like that, then let’s forget the past then – let the past be in the past and let’s arrange for families to come together. Do you think that this family we are referring to here would be willing to meet up with their brother and son? I don’t think so and even if they wanted to, they would not be allowed to do so, I’m afraid.

    Doi, I have a lot of family that don’t believe in Christ at all, but I still love them very much and we still get together, especially over Christmas time. Does this now mean that I am wrong or not saved because I am associating myself with them or spending time with them? Did Jesus not even eat with the tax collectors? Who would point them to Jesus then? Who would show them the love of Christ? Like I said, even if the son which we are referring to here has now chosen to walk in darkness (which I don’t believe is the case), what are we as Christians and what is his family doing to bring him back to the light? How is rejection going to help his cause?

    Doi, you are entitled to your opinion, but this is the way I see it.

    Oh, and I am glad to hear that you believe that I am in fact a real person and not a fabrication by the so called “gang”.

    Now Doi, now that I have answered your question, when are you going to answer mine? I am still waiting to hear your comments on water baptism, the baptism in the Holy Spirit being co-extensive with salvation. Who in SCOAN are baptised in the Holy Spirit? Why does SCOAN not practice communion? Why does SCOAN allow the kind of behaviour as set out in my posts without correction or distancing themselves from such comments or behaviour? I am talking about behaviour and comments that bring the ministry in disrepute – damaging the reputation of SCOAN. And so by the way I came to the conclusion now that these are in fact the views of SCOAN as SCOAN made no effort to distance themselves from such behaviour and comments. Why is TB Joshua copying quotable quotes from other theologians and claiming it to be his own?

    I am slowly but surely coming to the conclusion that you don’t have the answers to these questions, some vital questions I should add.

    I quote from your watch prophet tb joshua site:

    “As we said earlier, we do not and will never incite anyone to come forward to tell stories about how and why they left SCOAN, the postings and comments we publish are well scrutinised before hand , because we will never be part of words trading and counter accusations, or preside over others to judge and watch them.”

    Right, so according to “your” post I was incited I suppose by Tbjoshuawatch to come forward to tell my story about how I left SCOAN. First of all I thought you guys said that it was fabricated, but now suddenly you are claiming that in fact it is not fabricated as I was incited to come forward to tell my story. Huh? So what is it now?

    The only thing that incited me to tell my story is the shocking comments on your website which you claim to be well scrutinised before hand.

  15. @moderator – Reason for Visser’s post being declined?

    @Visser – Boredom stops here as there are loads of questions to answer which has not been answered as yet, and no these questions are not fabricated, they are real questions that deserves real answers.

    @Terrific – That’s what I get for not taking a firm enough stand, haha – an invitation to SCOAN. Still I would prefer to continue the way I am doing things, asking questions, searching for truth to be fair until I have enough proof to become a Mr Terrific. haha

    • hmmm. haven’t deleted any Visser posts lately, but a few weeks back there were a few crazy ones that didn’t get through. Culminating in the one where he compared our comments moderation policy to the trial that convicted Jesus. I think he’s probably still sore about that. Anyway, any comments that engage with other commenters in a constructive and vaguely respectful way will be approved.

    • @ Cautious,
      I’m glad you ignored my suggestion and went ahead to answer Doe’s question. That shows independence of mind and also means the commenters on this site are free to air their opinions without fear or favor. This site is genuine, and will somebody say, ” Amen!” Now let’s see if TBJ would come up with answers to basic biblical doctrines. He has an obligation to God and to the body of Christ to answer these questions, and to do so NOW ! And, Cautious, all the truth you need to know is in the word of God, the Bible. The more you study, the more the Lord speaks to you, the more your understanding and the less your dependence on, and fear of, man.

  16. From the moderator: Visser, your posts have never been deleted for being too long. It is only to be expected that long clarifying comments from Cautious will be approved when it’s on the post he wrote. We accept comments from many SCOAN supporters (e.g. Doi, Soe, Radicalised etc…) because they generally participate in the dialogue and stay on topic. For the record, we also delete comments from anti-SCOAN people too who are off topic, unreasonably long or offensive.


    Cautios,

    It seems that some are more privileged on this blog and some less. According blog policy sometimes your silver-tongeued post are too long . My are deleted if they have more than 6 lines.
    Who is more priviledged ? One that shoots more beans at…….

    • @Visser – I am sorry to hear that, as I would not want anyone to get the impression that there is not an equal opportunity here to voice your opinion. I would urge the moderator to allow equality if this is not happening. However, what I understood from the moderator’s comment’s, he would allow comments that engage with other commenter’s in a constructive and vaguely respectful way. I also understood from the moderator that he has not declined any of your posts since a couple of weeks ago. You are not by any chance trying to avoid these very important questions are you? Also, the moderator is very aware that these posts here pretty much revolve around getting answers to these very important questions. Why would he not allow your post to be submitted if you address these questions here? If you feel you can’t answer me here then feel free to answer my questions on your watch prophet TB Joshua site, but answer me now without further delay as there are other issues I would like to address here, but not until these issues has been dealt with.

  17. @anyone – I quote from Watch prophet TB Joshua Website: “Really we don’t get it, what point are they making?”

    Just to give some background, this was taken from the article “Fabricated stories and account of the ‘gang’ TB Joshua Watch”.

    Is the above comment for real? I mean after all the important questions that were raised in this post about water baptism, baptism in the holy spirit, salvation, copying quotes from other theologians etc., they now stating that they don’t understand the purpose of my post? Huh? Anyone?

    I would recommend that more disciples should scrutinise these articles before you press submit to make sure what you are saying is plausible at least.

  18. From the moderator: Your last contribution was a rather insensitive comment aimed at a young lady who claims to have been raped. That said, despite its insensitivity, it did raise a good point which we will address in a future post.


    @ Cautious – well… my own post on your first one is not published…..And I had a good point…
    @ Visser – ‘Who is more priviledged ? One that shoots more beans at…….’ That is exactly what is happening. Mr Terrific’s post are getting to the top. None of his curses has been declined. On the opposite they are encouraged. This is the reason that I am not posting any more even though I had some points for Cautious….

    • visser is rihht about the issue going round in circles, but its not our fault, if no one is answering why scoan do not baptise in water, etc. the last time it was like this was when it took 120. comments because no one would admit tbj sins.

      so visser! doi! lets here it!
      why no water baptism?
      communion?
      who else in scoan is baptised in holy spirit?
      why does salvation equal holy spirit baptism?

      • @ Everybody,
        Please let everyone get this clear. I say with all authority that T B Joshua is a sinner, and a despicable one at that, just like all of us, for ALL have SINNED and fallen short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23. T B Joshua is not holier than those he compels to make confessions and he himself needs to confess his sins before the congregation.1 John 1:8-10. People should stop putting this false prophet on a pedestal and idolizing him as a “man of God,” because he is a man of Satan, a false Christ. Matt 24:24.
        Many of my posts have been deleted and some did not even see the light of day, but I do understand that the moderators have to be consistent in their policy. I DO NOT seek to be the “tops” among commenters, but I’m here to share what I know as the truth, in the light of God’s word, and in the light of my experiences at SCOAN, and it’s my obligation to God and to believers to do so, without fear or favor. As a matter of fact, what I do know is very little compared to all the sordid details on the “inside,” which only close confidants of TBJ can divulge, but so far only a few of them like Agomoh, Bisola and Kayode have come forward. And, now, the foreigners are also beginning to sing, so let’s remember our duty to God and to Jesus Christ who bought us with His own blood to EXPOSE this false prophet without any fear. God commanded false prophets to be STONED to death, but today the least we can do is to EXPOSE them, to protect the flock of the Lord Jesus from wolves in sheep’s clothing.

  19. @Visser – Well, like I said, if you feel you can’t post here, then post on your “Watch Prophet TB Joshua website”, but if you are not going to address these questions then the book is closed and myself and the general public will believe that SCOAN does not have any answers to these very important doctrines of the Christian faith.

  20. @Alan Basha – Looking forward hearing from you and curious as the moderator mentioned that you have raised a good point. Will be quiet now so others can comment.

  21. Can someone explain or give the answer to Giles question ? Are people (desciples) in SCOAN speak in tongues?

    • @ Visser and Doi,

      Why can’t you people give the biblical answer to water baptism and holy communion ? Do you fear God or do you fear mortal man, in this case, this Nigerian fraudster called T B Joshua ?

  22. @Visser. Well I can give you the answer about speaking in tongues. No, people in SCOAN are not allowed to speak in tongues, or should I rather say they are told they can’t speak in tongues. It is the believe that only TB Joshua is baptised in the Holy Spirit and therefore the believe would be that only TB Joshua can speak in tongues. They believe that when you speak in tongues there should be power in it and the way they measure that power is that e.g. if TB Joshua would speak in tongues during a church service “demons would start to manifest” etc. or so they say. There is a quotable quote that goes like this: “You who claim to be baptised in the Holy Spirit, can you say to the lame, rise up and walk, can you say to the blind open your eyes and see.” Now I would accept correction if I don’t have that quote exactly right, although I think it is correct the way I put it. Now even though I was baptised in the Holy Spirit before I joined SCOAN I stopped speaking in tongues, because of what SCOAN taught and I started to question if I was indeed baptised in the Holy Spirit. It sort of made sense to me at the time that wow if I claim I am baptised in the Holy Spirit can I say to the blind, open your eyes and see etc? Although I can tell you that in the years that I have been a Christian before joining SCOAN God has answered my prayers and those of others and we have seen wonderful healings etc. take place, but not in such a regular fashion as it seems to be the case at SCOAN.

    There is however great deception in this and I am too tired to go into the detail of it now, but the deception is that their are different gifts of the Holy Spirit so it is not to say that if you are not operating in the miraculous that you are not baptised in the Holy Spirit and it is not to say that if you don’t operate in that gift that God can’t use you occasionally to operate in that gift if you know what I mean.

    Like I said in a previous post, the junior prophets, wise men etc. believe that they have only received an impartation of the Holy Spirit when TB Joshua anointed them to pray for the sick. They will tell you that they are waiting on the baptism of the Holy Spirit, waiting for the appointed time.

    I also got the impression that they believe that when you are baptised in the Holy Spirit it is like you are one with the Holy Spirit so much so that everything you do or say becomes infallible, because when you speak it is as if the Holy Spirit speaks, This is where all these strange teachings come from that TB Joshua is infallible and strange beliefs llike that of SOE that TB Joshua’s words are equal to that of the authority of The Bible itself.

    Thanks for asking this question. I hope this gives you greater understanding and insight in the ministry.

  23. @ Hattie and all,
    And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and to give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified. Acts 20:32. The word of God is the ultimate authority and source of knowledge, wisdom and understanding and that’s the safest place God can speak to us and teach us in all knowledge and wisdom. The word of God is spirit and it is life. John 6:63. It is sharper than any two-edged sword, it’s like fire and it breaks the rock to pieces. Hebrews 4:12: Jeremiah 23:29. Our authority is in the word of God and not in our position as “man of God.”
    Hattie, if you want wisdom and knowledge and power, it’s in the word of God. All other books are of very little significance.

  24. Thank you Coutious for your answer. I am glad for this information. If this is true, I begin to understand why there is no connection with Nigeria Pentecostal churches and SCOAN for this reason. If this is true there is radical difference between SCOAN and Pentecostal churches in belive system.

  25. Cautious, can you give short comment to this faith SCOAN statement from SCOAN website?

    From SCOAN statement of Faith as we read:

    Water baptism and baptism in the Holy Spirit. We also believe in speaking in tongues as the Spirit of God gives utterance (Acts 2:4). All who enter into the number of the body of Christ do so because they are baptized in the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:13; Romans 8:9). When you are baptized in the Holy Spirit, God’s power will come upon you as it did on the first disciples on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1-4). When God’s power comes upon you, the Holy Spirit will affect everything about you. The Holy Spirit produces rivers of life, joy, love, peace and power to flow out of your spirit for the needs of others (John 7:37-38).

    It should be real experience among SCOAN desciples ? Why is so different from your own life experience?

    • @ Visser,
      This is no statement : it’s not even a phrase. Please make your statement on water baptism clear and I can comment. And please don’t forget the Lord’s supper.; these are things you should have on your finger tips, my brother, or is it sister ? Tell us also about your version of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Now, we can have a real debate…lol !

    • Although that statement of faith is reasonably orthodox, it clashes with the classical pentecostal belief that baptism in the Holy Spirit is a distinct event from conversion (for the record that is what I believe the bible teaches too, but I acknowledge that not everyone does).

      Here SCOAN seem to be saying that you are only saved because of being baptised in the Holy Spirit (I guess this is the “coexistant” teaching). This teaching becomes particularly troublesome when you put such a high degree of evidence on being baptised in the Holy Spirit. For example if you’re saying that the evidence of baptism in the Holy Spirit is seeing significant miraculous signs and wonders AND you’re saying that Baptism in the Holy Spirit and conversion are one and the same event, you’ve missed the heart of the gospel. You can have one of those beliefs without the other and remain reasonably orthodox, but put them together and you’ve created a new form of legalism and undermined the gospel of grace.

  26. @ All,
    It’s incumbent on all believers to be like the BEREANS in the book of Acts 17:10-11. This means we are to check the word of anyone who claims to be a man of God against the written word of God, and if what they teach or preach don’t align with God’s word, IT IS BECAUSE THERE IS NO LIGHT IN THEM. Isaiah 8:20. The Bereans did not just accept Paul’s position as apostle and swallow his words, but checked the scriptures to see whether they were true. Beloved, we’re talking here about somebody who had a direct encounter with the Lord and also had a revelation of the Third heaven, yet the Bereans did the right thing by checking through the Bible, to see whether Paul was preaching. ” another gospel or Another Jesus.” We’re to do the same thing, if we’re not to be deceived by lying and deceitful wolves in sheep skin. I reiterate, our authority is not in our position as men of God, but in the word of God. Somebody, shout, ” Hallelujah and Amen.”

  27. @ Cautious.about leaving Scoan.
    I’ll respond to your question on bamptism, comminion etc.in my next coment.
    When A member decides to betray the others cos he believes the ways are questionable.even after much persuations, he never listened. how could the family continue such close relationship with him? salvation is personal irrespective of any family relationship.
    And yes i believe such could happen without instruction to do so.
    Similar thing happened to my family.though not about discipleship.but my dad had to tell my brother to chat his cause. Not that we don’t talk to him or receive his calls but some thing just have to happen.Can we attribute this to any church or organisation? No. It’s a personal family issue.
    Maybe we would expect Lot to look back in rescue of his wife who became a pillar of salt.ha! She chose to follow that parth.
    If this member should come back i believe he’ll be warmly welcomed. I honestly believe he wasn’t rejected and wasn’t out of hatred.

    • @Doi – You’ve said in your post ‘When A member decides to betray the others cos he believes the ways are questionable.even after much persuations, he never listened. how could the family continue such close relationship with him? ‘.

      Are you saying that someone choosing to leave SCOAN is a betrayal of his family if they remain in SCOAN? How? I’m sorry I really don’t understand. Even if you don’t agree with someone else’s actions, even if they reject what you believe in, that’s not betrayal, surely? Surely if a family member disagrees with you, or rejects your belief, that doesn’t stop you loving them and being part of their lives and vice versa. Is this SCOAN teaching, that someone leaving is somehow committing an act of betrayal and should be cut off from friends and family still members of SCOAN? Because if so, that is totally weird and I am not sure where the scriptural basis for this is?

  28. NOTE FROM MODERATOR: Cautious, please try and keep the word limit down. We’ll let it pass this once.
    @Visser – Apologies, like I said previously I did not follow some of these posts from the beginning and I just picked up that Terrific etc. continued to ask you, Doi and Soe to answer on certain doctrines etc. Because of this I was under the impression that you might be one of the current disciples which are well familiar with the teachings of SCOAN. I did start to read back a little bit today and started to have my doubts of where you slot in, whether a disciple, a worker or an outsider. I did not realise up to now that you are not that familiar with the teachings of SCOAN and for that reason did not think it necessary to explain much to you. I was also under the impression that you have been commenting here for a long time and that most things should be clear to you by now.

    So I am glad that you found my previous post informative and I think you are so right that SCOAN’s believe system is to some extend different from other Pentecostal churches and I believe you are correct when you say that this is the reason why there is no connection between SCOAN and other Pentecostal churches in Nigeria.

    I just read through SCOAN’s Statement of Faith on their website and I love it and I agree with everything they are saying in their Statement of Faith. I saw that they mentioned water baptism full stop – they did not say anything about it on their Statement of Faith so I am not sure what that is suppose to imply. I mean it probably just means that they believe in it and I think I am right to make that assumption as what else can it possibly mean. They did not elaborate on it. I see they also mention communion and baptism in the holy spirit and salvation. All seems good, right?

    Well, the question remains, why are they not putting their Statement of Faith into practice? Have you ever seen a baptism taken place on Emmanuel TV? For how many years have you been following Emmanuel TV now? This alone will answer your question whether water baptism is taking place in this ministry or not. I don’t even have to elaborate. Like I told you, I have been involved in the ministry for several years and never once have I witnessed a water baptism take place, not in Nigeria and not in any international branch, or at least not the international branches I attended. Did you notice how many times I have asked for a response on why water baptism is not taking place and no one seems to have an answer, dead silence, as there is nothing that hey can say to it, because they know that it is a fact that water baptism is not practised. This is not only my experience, but all ex-disciples will tell you that and as you can see not even the current disciples are denying it, because they can’t and they won’t dare to, because there are too many witnesses that knows that it is not practised and they would be cutting their own throats by saying that they do, while everyone knows they aren’t. So why is this on their Statement of Faith? Are they trying to say the right things in order to deceive? I have got no idea, hence the reason I am demanding answers to these questions on baptism, communion etc.

    Now another point they mention is that they believe in communion. Yet they don’t practise communion. How come they communicate that they believe in it on their Statement of Faith and yet they don’t practise communion? How many times have you seen me and others ask them why communion is not practised, dead silence, cause they don’t have an answer to it. Do I know why they don’t honour communion? I have no clue, hence the reason I am demanding an answer. Once again, dead silence. All I know is that the Lord commanded us to partake in communion in remembrance of Him and if the Lord commanded us to honour communion, how come SCOAN is not honouring it?

    Do they believe in speaking in tongues and baptism in the Holy Spirit? Yes, they do, because they believe that TB Joshua is baptised in the Holy Spirit and that he speaks in tongues. So, yes, they believe in it. Is it however true that they believe that only TB Joshua is baptised in the Holy Spirit. Yes, absolutely, hence the reason I am asking them to tell me who else in SCOAN is baptised in the Holy Spirit? And again, dead silence, cause they know what I am saying is true, and they can’t deny it. Any ex-disciple will tell you that and as you can see the current disciples are not denying it either, hence dead silence. That is the reason why I am asking the question about their teaching that claims that baptism in the Holy Spirit is co-extensive with salvation. I am asking them, what does it mean? Does it mean that they are doubting their own salvation as none of them believe that they are baptised in the Holy Spirit as yet? I am still waiting for an answer, but once again, dead silence. Once again, dead silence, no explanation.

    Now as I mentioned before, disciples claim that they are waiting to be baptised in the Holy Spirit. My question now, how long have they been waiting and what needs to happen before they believe they will be baptised in the Holy Spirit? Are they trying to earn their salvation if they believe that salvation is co-extensive with baptism in the Holy Spirt? I mean what do they think they must do before they can be baptised in the Holy Spirit if you know what I mean? I honestly don’t know – hence the reason I am asking this question, but no response.

    What do I believe about salvation. I believe that no church or no organisation can save you, it is only Jesus Christ that is able to save. Salvation cannot be earned as it is by the grace of God alone. You are saved when you surrender yourself to Christ, giving your life to him by putting your faith in Jesus Christ and being obedient to Him in all things. Yes, my belief is that if you honestly belief in Christ then your actions would show that you belief – it would show in your obedience to Christ, complying to His instructions as set out in the Holy Scriptures and you would want to be faithful to Him, because you love him. I however don’t share the belief of those that claim that they are saved but their actions communicate a complete different story. yes, we are all sinners and we will all make mistakes from time to time, agreed, but some are of the idea that they give their lives to the Lord and now they continue to live however they please, because the grace of God will be enough for them. No, show me your faith without actions. Your actions will communicate what you belief.

    Food for thought: The bible says in Romans 3:23 that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. That is why we need the grace of God, that is why we need salvation.John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. Is TB Joshua not claiming to be infallible? Just asking? Like always, I will 100% accept correction if I am wrong in my interpretations, assumptions, explanations etc. Feel free to correct me. I am not claiming that I am always right as I once again admit that I am far from perfect. I am just searching for the truth.

    Hope this helps Visser, if not tell me what else you want to know.

  29. @moderator – my post was not insensitive. I did not called that woman any name… I just asked the same question every court in the world (and any sound minded person) would have asked her, if she would have dared to take her accusations to the court…
    Anyway, I will wait for your address on this issue in your future post and then join Cautious and the others on the other issues…

  30. @everyone – Apologies for long post.
    @ Doi – a response on baptism etc? At last! – Doi once again I would say that I don’t believe that after 10 years of sacrificing everything they just woke up one morning, were overwhelmed by madness and decided to leave the ministry. I am not going to repeat the story hear, but I am not sure if you realise that by making such claims they have sacrificed everything.If happened what they claimed happened then this decision’s got nothing to do with betrayal, but just common sense really and the right decision indeed.Not going to draw conclusions here, but just saying it depends how you look at it really and I suppose what you believe the truth is. For me I am still trying to establish the truth. And yes, some practices or lack of practices are questionable indeed? That is why I need answers to my many questions posted?

    Yes, Doi no one said that salvation is not personal and no one mentioned that there needs to be such a close relationship, but the issue is that they are not even willing to meet up at all. Complete rejection. I don’t find this biblical or Christ like at all. But you are entitled to you r opinion. Also my point is that if you are pastoring a church you represent the ministry you are pastoring and of course your actions will represent the ministry you are pastoring.

  31. SCOAN’s statement of faith :

    As Cautious and I have pointed out, the statement on water baptism, holy communion, is no statement at all. Did their web master make a mistake, or is it typical T B Joshua’s duplicity ? A case of saying something and doing another thing, that’s what I mean. They don’t practice it, yet they put it on their site without elaboration, trying to deceive those who are ignorant of scripture. From time immemorial, Joshua has frowned on water baptism, claiming to believe in Spirit baptism only. In fact, Joshua claims to be the carrier of the Holy Spirit and the only one who is baptized with the Spirit. Anyway, let’s hear their explanation, then we’d take it from there.

  32. Thanks, Cautious for your comment.

    I think SCOAN statement of faith is bigger than their faith live experience. Many churches put such fait statements to be considered as Christians but finally the church does not go above what the leader does.

    If they do not practice communion or baptism in water it is because TBJ used to go only into “healing”, “prophetic” and “preaching”. It looks like he is doing “what the Lord called him to do when he received his vision at the beginning when he fasted 40 days”.

    If he would have plural leadership in SCOAN as it was in the first century Christian church the things would look different in Lagos. It is a problem of leadership model in SCOAN.

    Some may not agree but this is what i think.

  33. Now on bamptism. We really have to be sure of the kind of bamptism. Is it water which is invoke today or of the holy spirit and fire.
    Water bamptism was a preparatory one act 19:4.for the cleansing awaiting the one to show the way.
    John himself acknowledged this by saying the one who would come after him would be greater and will bamptise with Holy spirit and fire.
    That we haven’t seen Tb Joshua deep people into pool of water and emphacises more on that of the Holy spirit does not make him false.
    During Jesus’ era there was no account where he bamptise people or his disciples with water.

    but when the Holy spirit came upon them they felt fufilled.they became like christ Himself.act 2:24
    Why don’t we exercise patience and try to understand Tb Joshua Better.these same question must have run through the mind of the pharesees cos they never saw Jesus bamptise the disciple.

    So, that we do not understand something does not make it wrong.
    On comminion.there’s no doubt that the bread and wine were merely symbolic. Jesus’ body was the bread. and in John 1. The Word made flesh.ie the body.jer 15:16.jeremiah said when your word came i ate them.relating all these, means what Jesus actually wanted us to do was to keep him in remembrance by eating the word.luke 22:20. ‘This is my blood in the new TESTAMENT’
    Its not all about eating bread without feeding our soul with God’s word.
    Since the bread and wine were only symbolic, it’s not a must we must see people eating bread before we say they observe the comminion.

    And about the quotable quote i believe Tb Joshua respects God generals. He gives them the honour they deserve.
    All God generals have one mission. They’re One. I don’t see anything wrong in Tb Joshua quoting any of their words. Except you’ve personally heard him say ‘yes i formed this, and its mine’. I often hear other men of God using some farmiliar quote but i don’t see any thing wrong there….

    • Hi Doe. I appreciate you getting down to the explanations. I’ve got a thing or two to say about them, but first I think it would be useful to clearly establish SCOAN’s practise before we establish their beliefs. So far what we’ve heard of their practise comes from people who have left, who may not necessarily be the most reliable sources. As someone still involved, do you mind answering the following?

      1. Does SCOAN ever practise water baptism? If so, with who? (E.g. Is it just TBJ or just Disciples, or all new believers?) How many times have you personally witnessed someone being baptised in water?
      2. Does SCOAN ever practise communion? If so with who? How regularly? How many times have you witnessed it?

      Knowing the answers to these questions will help me better understand the context of your explanation. Thanks. Look forward to this discussion.

    • Doi, with reference to Jesus not baptising anyone with water….
      1) Jesus was Himself baptised, no?
      2) After this, Jesus and His disciples went out into the Judean countryside where he spent some time with them and baptised. John 3:22.

      Doi, Jesus baptised people in water as well.

    • Doi,

      “On comminion.there’s no doubt that the bread and wine were merely symbolic”

      is it yours or SCOAN belive system?

    • @ Doi,
      The Bible says Jesus and the disciples baptized with water. John 3:22,26;4:1,2, so when you say there is no account to this effect, are you saying what the Bible says, or what your master tells you to say ? Though the bread and wine are symbolic, Jesus commanded it to be observed, so who is this TB Joshua who thinks he is above the word of God ? This man is a charlatan, pure and simple. It’s high time believers begin to study God’s word for themselves and not be deceived by false prophets and teachers.

  34. Cautious,

    Where I may find “SCOAN quotable quotes” to analize them? You may send them to my email if it is “ok” for you. Thank you in advance.

    • SCOAN sell a tb joshua book, i think its called Daily Bread, or something like that. Its basically pages of some of his quotble quotes. Its not all of them, there are hundreds and hundreds. But at least you’ll find some. I suppose you can order it on their website?
      It might have changed now, but disciples were not allowed to give out their quotable quotes books to anyone.

  35. yes. when you become a disciple, you will get your own notes of TBJ messages, and also we got two or three books full of quotes.
    These books were to be secret, not even other disciples were to have read your personal book. Some books of notes would only be given to other more prominent disciples who were “trusted” to look after them. I dont know what was written in them.

  36. @Doi Thanks for a response at last. I saw Ian asked you to provide some clarity. I would wait until you answered Ian’s questions before I comment further. About the copied quotable quotes. The issue is not that he is using some quotable quotes that does not belong to him, as you are right, using it is not an issue, but claiming it to be your own is, or not recognising the source. Fair question if he ever claimed it to be his own. I will get back to you on that one. The possibility is there that it is published in one of his books with his quotable quotes. I will let you know when I find it, that is if I find it.

    @Visser – I think that Giles is giving you good advice on trying to get hold of it on their website or perhaps buy it from some of the SCOAN branches. I’ve got no idea where you are from so I don’t know if you have access to a SCOAN branch close to you. The website might be best as suggested. Like Giles said there are so many I would not know where to start if I was to send you all these quotable quotes.

    But like I mentioned in a previous post I found most of the quotable quotes to be good, this is not really an issue to me, although there is a couple like the baptism in the holy spirit one we are still waiting to get more info on which is definitely questionable etc,

  37. Giles john 3:22.the bible did not say who bamptised who. Wether it’s water or spirit baptism.it only said ‘and baptised’.thats not enough evidence.
    Visser for christ to refer to his body as bread meaning the bread symbolises His body. It’s a biblical proof.
    Ian can we forget this. To me it’s no more important. I can’t begin to tell who was and who wasn’t. Like i went there to see who was bamptised or not.

    • Doi. The reasons I asked that question was so that I could respond according to what you said was SCOAN practise, and not misrepresent SCOAN. However, if you’re not willing to answer this clearly then I will have to respond based on my interpretation of what you said. My interpretation is as follows:
      1) SCOAN does not practise water baptism
      2) SCOAN does not practise communion
      If I’m correct on these assumptions, what do you make of the following?
      1) The great commission of believers is to make disciples, by baptising (in the name of the father, son and holy spirit) and teaching! Matthew 28:16-20 (now you could argue this doesn’t specify water baptism, but other times it refers to baptism in the name of the F,S&HS it is referring to water baptism)
      2) Acts 2:38 “Repent, and each of you be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” This shows two parts, baptism and receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit. This would make no sense if the baptism it was talking about was baptism in the Holy Spirit, it would just be repeating itself.
      3) When Peter sees some Gentiles who have been baptised in the Holy Spirit, he says “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” Acts 10:47.
      4) Acts 22:16 – Paul after his conversion is told to “Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.”
      There are many other instances of baptism in the early church, and I think it is impossible to say that all of these are referring to spirit baptism.

      If communion was not important for churches to continue with, why would Paul give instructions on its practise in 1 Cor 11? Why would Jesus tell his disciples to do it in remembrance of him?

      What you need to recognise is that everything you seem to be talking about goes against centuries of Christian teaching. Does that mean its wrong? No, not necessarily, but it does mean you should have a very robust, scriptural argument to back it up. I look forward to seeing it!

    • After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were coming and being baptized……..They came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan—the one you testified about—look, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him.”
      John 3:22-26

      Doi, are you really saying that Jesus didnt bother with baptism in water?
      You ignored the fact that JESUS WAS BAPTISED IN WATER.

  38. @Doi and all,

    How can you say we should forget something that the Lord has commanded us to remember ? 1 Cor 11:24. To you and T B Joshua, it’s no more important, but to the Lord Jesus who established the church with His own blood, it’s VERY IMPORTANT and that’s why He told us to REMEMBER ! In John 4:1-2, it’s clear that the disciples baptized in water and not the Spirit baptism. Jesus commanded water baptism and ” whatsoever I have commanded you, ” in Matthew 28:19-20, and if SCOAN is not obeying the commandments of the Lord, then SCOAN does not belong to the Lord Jesus, but to ” Another Jesus” 2 Cor 11:4.

  39. Mr Terrific. I couldn’t even conclude your coment. We’re not forgeting it.i was saying we should forget about his question As am not a tempter and don’t want to be.

  40. @ Giles,
    That’s good riddance to bad rubbish ! I threw everything about SCOAN into the trash. That’s what happens when you know the truth and the truth sets you free. John 8:32.

  41. @ All,

    When Jesus was crucified on the Cross and the Roman Soldier stabbed him in His side with his spear, what did came out of it ? Someone tell me ? John 19:4 It was not to prove that Jesus was dead, but it had a very very important spiritual message. Something that Satan knows that he has to cover up in any way or form. Those that are born again in the Spirit will understand what I am trying to say here.

    Again I say: Don’t be fooled, but rather expose what is covered up.

  42. @Nanardi – blood and water.

    @Terrific, Giles, anyone familiar with SCOAN: Here is SOE’s answer to our question on salvation being co-extensive with baptism in the Holy Spirit. Can any of you comment on it please. This is definitely not the way I understood it as already explained and according to as far as I know it is common knowledge among disciples that only TB Joshua is baptised in the Holy Spirit in which case what SOE says does not make sense.

    Hi Emma, thanks for showing a genuine desire to learn, this quotable quote of TB Joshua has been grossly misunderstood and misinterpreted by TB Joshua watch, in fact by a long shot they have this trait as a talent, part of the reason why i withdrew from their site, it simply means that every christian is Baptized in the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation, we are Baptized in the Holy Spirit in order to become Christians, Jesus said unless a man is born of water and spirit he cannot see the kingdom of God, when Paul traveled to ephesus in Acts 19 and found some disciples he asked then if they had been baptized in the holy spirit and they said no, immediately he told them their conversion was questionable, the holy spirit is the seal of authentic identification of a true christian, when he comes at the moment of baptism, he completely changes our lives, this is what is meant by being converted, saved or born again in the true sense of it, i hope its clear enough.

    Mr Soe, I can remember asking you for an explanation here. I asked very politely if you could please explain it, so why would this be reason for you to feel offended and leave if someone asks you to explain something to them?

    • Cautious,

      Quotable quote is no scripture and should be treated as any man’s opinion and not God’s word.

  43. yeah, thats not the scoan’s postion on baptism in holy spirit. According to them, only TB Joshua is baptised in the Holy Spirit.
    “Everyone who is baptised in the Holy Spirit has the Holy Spirit…but not everyone who has the Holy Spirit is baptised”.
    Thats one of his quotes that comes to mind, its basically subtly saying that just because “things happen” when you pray in the Spirit, it doesnt mean you are baptised in the Holy Spirit.

  44. @ All,

    Please would people learn to read and learn their Bibles, instead of ” quotable quotes” from some charlatan ? Wake up and learn your Bibles, please !

  45. To God be the Glory,I am not a member of SCOAN and like many folks I have only watched it through satelite but what i KNOW is that all man no matter how gifted dont know it all,dont have it all and cant do it all.I am yet to see a perfect church with a perfect pastor and a perfect thology,even those churches and christians who criticise TB Joshua if they were put in his position i doubt it would be long before we started seeing character and organisational inconsistencies.No doubt TBJoshua as a man has his faults and imperfections as we all do but like all other genuine and sincere men I believe he is doing the best he can given that he is only a mere mortal endowed with such spiritual gifts and grace!!!He definitely cant/wont please everybody but then again who can???I give thanx for all men who have come to the knowledge of Gods loving grace through the work of SCOAN work and for those who say their lives have gone offf the rails because of TB Joshua,well may our Lord Jesus Christ who bled and died for us all and ever liveth to make intercession for us show them mercy and heal their lives.This is my comment.

    • Hi Gerald. Welcome to the discussion. I agree entirely with you that nobody is perfect, and everybody makes mistakes. The problem is, close followers of TB Joshua do not believe that about him. If you read through some of their comments on this site you’ll see people saying he is infallible, that everything he does is right, that his words are equal to scripture, that he is part divine or that he’s here to save the world. If he were to admit to some of his mistakes and false prophecies, it would make a huge difference – the problem is, he doesn’t.

  46. Ian as I said before I am not a member of SCOAN and I have never met TB Joshua and have no plans to though i hope and pray that when all this is over he will be among the people I meet in Heaven.I have listened to TB Joshua several times for the past 3 years now on Emmanuel TV saying statements like, ” there is no such thing as a perfect person,this thing called perfect does not exist here on earth” to quote his exact words.He goes on to encourage all of us to be forgiving of each other with statements like “…both perpertrator and victim stand in helpless need of Gods forgiveness…” and other statements like “…we need to forgive because we also need to be forgiven…”.Now surely such statements cannot proceed from one who believes he is infallible or one who teaches that he is infallible.Now you claim that many of his followers for reasons only known to themselves may treat or present him as infallible,i cannot speak for them,but for those who care to listen to TB Joshuas teachings as they are beamed on Emmanuel tv you will realise that TB Joshua himself does not teach the infallibility of any human being including himself,these are teachings that he constantly teaches and repeats and I get to hear them through Emmanuel tv.I respect TB Joshua not because he is perfect(for he certainly isnt) but because God has chosen and given him the grace and opportunity together with many other distinguished men of God worldwide whom i shall not mention to help a lot a lot of people spiritually,physically and financially.And inspite of his own imperfections and the great scrutiny from freinds and foes alike the man has remained true to this calling for this I have the greatest respect for him and I hope Godd will give him more strength and grace to continue pressing on through this night called life.I also call upon all of us to do our christian duty and pray for those who say their lives were affected negatively through their direct or indirect association with TB Joshua,that our Lord Jesus Christ may heal and restore their lives.

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