Anna’s story: Another victim of TB Joshua’s bogus healing

For those finding this site for the first time having read the Sky news story, we recommend you read “A beginners guide to SCOAN and TB Joshua“, a roundup of our on going investigation into this group.

In previous posts we have discussed SCOAN’s dangerous teaching about healing, in which people are 1) told that they are healed by TB Joshua, 2) discouraged from taking medication and 3) blamed for a ‘lack of faith’ when it becomes clear that they are still sick. Judith was left in a coma after following the advice of SCOAN disciples. In this post, we tell the story of a woman who died after she refused medical treatment because TB Joshua had declared her healed. Some names have been changed to protect identities.

Anne, a British woman, was in her forties when she died of cancer. She left behind a husband and two children, both in their teens. Claire was a close friend of the family.  She says that the tragedy of Anna’s situation was that her death was preventable.“If Anne had had the chemotherapy, the chances are she would have been fine now,” she says. “I know five other people who have had breast cancer and had the chemo. All of them are now in full remission.”

Anne was diagnosed with breast cancer  in 2001. “It was diagnosed early,” says Claire. “She’d already had a masectomy but she was due to have a course of chemotherapy. The aim was to wipe out individual cancer cells that might have been missed, or that might have spread elsewhere.” According to Claire, Anne was usually meticulous about following medical advice. However, she ended up refusing the chemotherapy. Three years later, she was dead. What persuaded her to take this fatal decision?

Anne attended Emmanuel, an evangelical church in Winchester, England. Simon was a fellow member of this church and recalls this time.“From around 2000 there was a lot of buzz in the church about the Synagogue, Church of All Nations in Lagos.” he says. “People talked about this incredible church in Nigeria where healings and prophecies took place. It was like the book of Acts in the 21st century. That was how it was presented.” said Simon. “There was a feeling that Christianity in England was lukewarm, safe and boring. People were hungry for something raw and powerful, more awe-inspiring. But not everyone shared the enthusiasm. Some people were more wary of it.” Kate, who attended the same church, wrote about the atmosphere at the time in this post.

“Anne’s husband Tony first went to Nigeria around 2001. He came back very enthusiastic about what he had seen there.” says Claire. “After this, Anne was keen to go out to Nigeria with him.” They went out together in 2002, shortly before Anne was due to start her course of chemotherapy. But her visit changed everything.

In Lagos, Anne had stood in the prayerline and received prayer from TB Joshua. Afterward, she was told that she was healed. “She came back from Lagos claiming she had been healed by TB Joshua,” said Claire. “She said that because of this, she was not going to have chemo.” says Claire. “I was keen for her to have the chemo. But when we talked, she came out with what at the time I thought was an odd argument,” she says. “She told me she was healed by faith and that if she had the chemo that would demonstrate a lack of faith in the healing and that therefore she would not be healed,” says Claire. “I don’t know exactly what TBJ actually advised them to do, but I know the whole teaching about not having chemo came from Nigeria.”

Several other people tried to persuade her to have the chemotherapy. But she was insistent. “She had been so excited by what she had seen in Nigeria, and she had fallen hook, line and sinker for this strange teaching.” says Claire.

After this, Anne and her family became more involved in SCOAN. “They went out to live in Lagos for a year, taking their younger son out of school for the year and leaving their older son in England,” says Claire. “They went out again in 2004, and decided to take their older son with them, when he should have been sitting his A levels. I argued that it wasn’t wise to disrupt the children like this, but by then, they were very hooked into everything.”

Anne’s condition deteriorated over this period. She died in 2005. The choice to not have chemotherapy was entirely her own. However, we know that she was persuaded to take this decision by the teaching she encountered in SCOAN. She took this decision because she believed she was healed. You might argue she was desperate to believe, and was in an intoxicating and other-wordly environment where anything seemed possible. But most importantly, she believed it because she was told she was healed, by the self-proclaimed Man of God, Prophet TB Joshua.

Unfortunately, the story of Anne is not a unique case. Here’s a short round-up of other people who have been proclaimed ‘healed’ by TB Joshua and his disciples:

Judith, who was ‘healed’ of diabetes.

-The women in the BBC article who died of AIDs after quitting their ARV medication.

-Ex-disciple Giles’ mother, who also refused chemotherapy after being told she was healed.

-Our old pastor (mentioned in this post).

-Maxime Claasen and John Rindel from South Africa (mentioned halfway down this post)

All of them were proclaimed healed at SCOAN but none of them were healed. All of them died except for Judith, who spent a few days in a coma. And the stories that have been told on this site and others are almost definitely the tip of a much larger iceberg.

SCOAN’s usual response

“But we can’t blame TB Joshua for these failures,” TB Joshua supporters will say. In the words of SCOAN London, in their response to the latest scandal exposed by Sky News, “if anybody comes in the name of God, we pray for them,” they say, but “the outcome of the prayer will determine if they come genuinely or not“.

In other words, if these people were genuine, faithful, free from sin and worthy of healing, the healing process would have been completed and maintained. They were healed, of course, through TB Joshua’s unique anointing. But if they ended up dead, this was because the healing was ‘undone’ by their own doubts, their weakness, and their sin. To quote SCOAN London, “Christianity is a relationship. When the relationship is broken, the blessing is lost.” And so these people died, broken and racked with guilt at their own lack of faith. Because this is how our almighty God rolls, right?

Wrong. Members of SCOAN need to seriously rethink this twisted teaching. It is cruel exploitation of people at their most vulnerable and desperate.

179 thoughts on “Anna’s story: Another victim of TB Joshua’s bogus healing

  1. This is by far the most disturbing aspect of SCOAN’s ministry. If Anna is who I think she was, she was a passionate and spirit-filled Christian. The idea that she didn’t have enough faith to “maintain her miracle” is pretty unlikely and spectacularly un-scriptual. Tbj supporters, how can you defend this?

    • you people well just hard an issue an you will start criticising the man of God. God have be using this man to heal million of people but you only use Anna case to criticis the man. You people have to ask GOD for forgiveness!!!

  2. & what can u t.b joshua critics say abt the hundreds of people that ar heal of HIV through t.b joshua, including my 2 uncles, oh u people didnt see that one abi? it is only the people that died that u saw! Listen one advice 4 u t.b joshua’s critics go & find smtin 2 do, than becomin idle, as u kno an idle man is the devil’s workshop.

    • How can you ignore this story?? I believe that people may well have been healed at SCOAN but that’s not the point. I’m made this point many times before but saying it’s OK for a few people to die because of all the people who have been healed is like saying it’s OK for Dr Harold Shipman to have killed a few people because he must have helped hundreds of others. It’s not like SCOAN has expressed any regret or remorse over these deaths – they are blaming the person who has died for their lack of faith (Giles’ Mum is a classic case here – when she died, TBJ just turned his back). I feel that if TBJoshua came forward and said “I’m sorry, people have died because we’ve told them to stop taking their medication. We were wrong. We’re so sorry” then people like me would feel very differently about him and his ministry. But no, they just turn their backs and hide behind bland statements. Does that not concern you?!

  3. @Halita,

    Please give us the Phone Numbers, Names, Addresses, State, Zip Code and Country of your 2 uncles that are healed from HIV through T. B. Joshua and the doctors certificates, so we can verify all healings if they have taken place genuinely as you have purported and claimed.

    Please write to:

    Mr. Ole Anthony
    Trinity Foundation Inc. offices
    5622 Columbia Ave., Dallas Texas, 75214
    UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

  4. Thank God it wasn’t mentioned that Scoan told her to stop taking medications. A question i have for everyone. Isn’t it the same T.b. Joshua that decleared thousands of people healed, blessed, delivered,in Jesus’ name? and today they become so fufilled? How come thousands come back for testimonies only to hear one or two died.are we saying God is not faithful to all? Lets not forget we are humans here!.Except we’re saying God’s authority is limited to some specific persons.
    Sincerely speaking am not God to tell the cause of her death, but what i do know is we can’t attribute this some kind of fake healing cos thousands even with similar problems are rejoicing up till this very minute.
    Our problem is we keep paying attention to the one or two we HEARD died.neglecting the millions that keep rejoicing and praying everyday for this man.

    • I have not only HEARD, I have KNOWN people who have died after TB Joshua declared them to be healed. I KNOW of the grief that the people around them have experienced. This is not a competition between “thousands” and “one or two” A single life that is lost or shortened due to teaching from SCOAN that healing can be lost by accepting medical interventions such as chemotherapy is one too many.

  5. My concern Halita, is not for people who have been healed – can God heal today? Of course He can and does and I can point to people in my own life who have had healing (including my (then baby) daughter). However, what concerns me is that when healing is not apparent – because the condition persists or because treatment has ‘hidden’ the condition, then removal of treatment should only be done under medical supervision. I disagree with the concept that healing is dependent upon the sick person’s faith and that they should take prove their faith by not having treatment, I disagree that if you are not healed it means that you lack faith or have sinned or something and I disagree with telling someone not to continue treatment even where there is evidence that that person remains unwell. People should be advised to see their doctors who can help them come off treatment and monitor their condition and advise whether further treatment is needed. God has blessed us with medical knowledge that did not exist 2000 years ago – maybe we should praise and thank him for that.

  6. God is the Healer, whose name is Jehovah Rapha. When God heals, it is complete and incontestable. Lying demons, working through a person, can say one is healed, when one is not. Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep’s clothing, parading as ” angels of light.”

  7. Mr Terrific you aren’t God to tell who was and who wasn’t healed. This is purely spiritual.do not coprehend the things of God with mental asset. If i could get something clear.are you saying they were’nt actually healed when decleared healed? How come many others keep rejoicing?

    @Ole Anthony.what are your going to do after you’re given the names and addresses of her uncles? Are you also going to also spy like sky news? Oh forget it i wouldn’t advice her to give such details out.

    • @ Doi,

      These people were not healed, but you lied to them that they were, and that’s why they died of their sicknesses, period !

  8. Only God is the Lord over death and life not you. Elisha had become sick with the illnes of which he would die. (2 Kings 13, 14) It is ironic that Elisha, the great giant of faith, with double Spirit of Elijah, who had done so many miracles in his lifetime would die from illnes. There is always an element of mystery in the ministry of the miraculous. Such question like on this blog can have only people from Europe with Aristotelian and Platon thinking who want to control everything even God. Poor people, you want to control everything even God, but you can not control over yourself? You can not explain why in (2 Kings 13. 21) they put in the tomb of Elisha man who died and when he touched the bones of Elisha he revived and stood on his feet? Death of Elisha saved a man. First explain this situation to yourself than you might be allow to judge any faith healing ministry on this earth or you will stop and keep focus on Jesus instead of you venom accusations.

  9. @ ole anthony am nt goin 2 give u any adress of my uncles, they ar heal 5yrs ago at scoan & til 2dy they ar perfectly free 4rm HIV, am nt wiling 2 risk their healing becos of critics like u, & talking abt false prophet @terrific since u always emphasise on caln t.b joshua a false prophet can u pls name d geniue prophets? & pls state ur position as 2 whether u ar a false or geniue chris-follower since u ar 2 quick in caln smbdy a false prophet.

    • How can it be said that this is a gift of healing from God if giving the details will “risk” the healing?

    • @ Halita,
      We have a duty to warn the flock of the Lord Jesus about wolves in sheep’s clothing who are taking the name of the Lord in vain and deceiving and fleecing the flock. TB Joshua preaches ” Another Jesus, ” teaches ” another gospel,” which is not the doctrine of Jesus Christ, and works with ” another spirit.” 2 Corinthians 11:4. It is our duty to let the Lord’s people know so they can make an informed decisions for themselves.

  10. I wondered whether the SCOAN London church could be held guilty of manslaughter in the cases of the people who died – I checked Wikipedia (which may not be 100% correct!) and it says about the law in England:

    In English law, gross negligence is the test for manslaughter. The crime was defined in R v Bateman as ‘to show such disregard for life and the safety of others as to amount to a crime against the state and conduct deserving of punishment. In R v Adomako the House of Lords affirmed R v Bateman, and set out the five elements required for negligence:

    A duty of care owed by the defendant to the victim.
    A breach of that duty.
    A risk that the defendant’s conduct could cause death.
    Evidence that the breach of duty caused the victim’s death.
    The defendant fell so far below the standards of the reasonable man in that situation that he should be labelled grossly negligent and deserving of criminal punishment

    I don’t know, but I think it could be said that a church owes a duty of care to its members or visitors, that telling someone to stop treatment is a breach of that duty, that there is a risk that it could result in death (people have already died), that the breach of duty caused the death (you would have to show they wouldn’t have died if they had accepted treatment or continued their medication) and certainly the reasonable man (the man on the Clapham omnibus if I remember my law lectures right) would consider this dangerous advice – one of my christian friends looked at the BBC report last month and commented that the people behind the advice were ‘dangerous g*ts’, I think most rational people in England would take that view.

    If I’m right, the thing with manslaughter is that you don’t have to prove the ‘mens rea’ (guilty mind) that you do with murder – in other words if you do something negligent, even if you do it with the best of intentions, you’re still guilty. Also it can apply to corporate bodies as well as individuals -so SCOAN could be tried as well as the individuals involved. Wonder whether TBJ would come over for a trial?!

    It would be interesting to get some legal advice – any English lawyers on this blog? The law in Nigeria may be different, but these cases come firmly under English law – it happened in England (not Anna but the HIV cases) and (from the accents of those on the Sky report) English people involved. I think the law is the same or similar in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.

    (If you read this Mr Biles, I’ve remembered a heck of a lot from your law lectures all those years ago!)

  11. I was quite deep involved in SCOAN. My mother developed breast cancer and I did everything in my ability at the time to convince my mother not to have a masectomy as I don’t believe that this is God’s plan for her life, to be mamed like that. I believed that God had the solution and that he is already busy working out the answer. I tried to convince my mother to go to one of the international branches of SCOAN to receive prayer from the then pastors. After quite a lot of effort, she decided to go. Her operation was booked for the following week and the doctors said that it can’t wait. My mother did not cancel the operation and still decided to go ahead with it. I was not very happy with her decision at the time, but here you can’t make a decision for someone when it comes to life and death situations like these. The operation was a great success and they managed to stop the cancer from spreading. I remember she received radiation, but not sure if she had any chemotherapy at this time.

    She continued to live a happy life and was declared clean. About four years later the cancer was back, but this time it spread very quickly throughout her body and there was not much that doctors could do for her. I asked the then pastors of SCOAN at one of the international branches to go and visit her, to pray for her, but they refused as they said that they have not received the instruction from the Holy Spirit to do so. My dad was very angry at this, because he told me that I have dedicated so much of my time in the ministry and now that I need their help, prayer etc. they are not willing to offer their support. (They did however pray for her over the phone eventually).

    I now tried everything in my power to get my mother to Lagos. My mother however was so weak at the time and my dad explained to me that it is very unlikely that she would survive a trip to Lagos. They went to another faith healer that also makes big headlines, claims of hundreds, if not thousands that could not walk that can now walk again and all kinds of other miracles they claim took place in the name and the power of Jesus. This is also a big ministry that also enjoys a lot of television coverage.

  12. When my mother got prayed for by this faith healer in the name of Jesus, she stood up out of her wheelchair and walked around, even running around as if she never even contracted cancer in the first place. She was excited and confessed that she was healed and everyone gave Jesus the glory for it. Some friends of my mother that she did not have contact with for many years saw my mother getting healed on the television and phoned her later to confirm the miracle and to celebrate with her.

    Unfortunately as soon as she left the church building she was terribly exhausted and never healed after all, although she so much wanted to believe it or should I rather say although she believed it at the time when she got prayed for. She was completely devastated and traumatised afterwards as she knew this was her last chance/opportunity to get well.

    I was with my mother the last two weeks of her life and saw her taking her last breath. This was the most horrific two weeks of my life as she was in so much pain that my dad that looked after her 24/7 at home prayed that the Lord would rather just come and take her away. I was still hopeful and trusted in God and rebuked my dad in a gentle way for giving up hope. My dad has looked after her for so long and only two weeks was enough for me. There is nothing more horrific to see those that you love suffering in such an unimaginable way.

    • hi jake.
      it looks like we share similar experiences with mothers with cancer. i was in afghan at the time before the army flew me out home just in time to be with her the nihht before. it never occred to me that she would actually die because of what tb joshua said about her being healed. i was just happy to be out of afghan and glad for the excuse. so it was a massive shock when the hospital rang the next morning saying she had died in the night.
      scoan had lso distanced themselves. we had also tried all sorts to get her to lagos but they kept hanging up and didnt want to know- even though i was in regular contact with disciples at scoan uk.

  13. @ Halita,

    We knew you would not give up details about genuine healing of HIV/AIDS. Does this mean you are a fraud too ?

    • @Scott,

      These people are collaborators and co-conspirators with T B Joshua to manipulate, to lie and to deceive the unwary and the ignorant.

  14. In some strange way which is unknown to me, this period of suffering brought my mother much closer to Jesus and she made this known through letters she wrote while she still had the ability. It gave me so much peace to see her take her last breath and just before she did a friend of my mum’s uttered the words, “Jesus is waiting for you”, and she just nodded as to say yes I know and she took her last breath. I know that she is with Jesus today and that is to me the most important of all.

    Now although I had questions about why God did not heal my mother I had peace because I knew she is where she belongs, with Jesus, without any suffering. I saw this as an unchangeable event and that God’s plans are above me. We don’t always understand everything, but maybe this suffering in some strange way laid the path that led to her salvation.

    What point am I trying to make? First of all I believe that Jesus Christ is the healer and that nothing is impossible for God and nothing is too difficult for Him. Does everyone get healed? No. Why? Because of their lack of faith or because of their sin etc? No, not necessarily. The simple answer is, we don’t know, we don’t understand God fully. Does this give us a reason not to believe God for our healing? No of course not, I believe that Jesus died for our infirmities. It is however a fact that not everyone get’s healed and I am talking about those that have faith in Christ. If we get healed, praise the Lord for his grace and if we don’t get healed praise be to God also. God is still God whether healed or not and everyone needs to die at some point of time, whether now or later. The most important thing to focus on is salvation.

    Should people be told not to take medication? No, I don’t think so. If for example you are blind and you trust God to heal your eyesight, does that mean that you need to throw away your white cane while still walking about in darkness? If you trust God to restore your eyesight if you have bad eyesight, does that mean that you have to throw away your spectacles while you are still waiting on God to restore your eyesight? No, I don’t think so.

  15. In hindsight I would have felt very bad if my mother was to follow my advice of not going for the operation, as this might have not spared my mother for another four years, and I would have blamed myself for it for the rest of my life. Although my family might not have mentioned it, they might have blamed me for it secretly also. Whether my mother had the operation or not would not have hindered God’s ability to heal her. I had faith for my mother’s healing and so also a lot of my family members that were totally convinced that God would heal her. This death was not a result of a lack of faith.

    I think we should be very careful when giving advice here. Now that I have gone through this myself, I realise how careful one should be – this is no child’s play.

    I just want to quickly refer back to that time when my mother got out of the wheelchair and started running around. How is this possible? Adrenaline and hope can make anything possible. You see, everyone there believed that my mother was healed, including my mother also. Who is to blame here? No one really. There is no issue with having faith in God, but like this situation clearly illustrates it is important to follow up to make sure that healing has indeed taken place.

    If not investigated and confirmed afterwards it can cause a lot of confusion.Why? In this case people that saw my mother afterwards knew she was not healed and then those who saw her on the television believed she was healed indeed. This can cause a lot of confusion.

    Let us look to no one else for healing and salvation but Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ alone.

  16. @madelaine and Ole Anthony. If you’re doubting the healing of Hiv. Are you also going to doubt that of cancer? That we openly see the sores And after weeks cover up? how can such be faked? We shouldn’t be so blind folded and not even recognise the truth. I really do not think Halita will be risking their healing.but she may be puting their lives at risk. As this is a world blog. And if all these can be done to TbJ. How much more someone who isn’t filled with such anointen. She just has to take some measures.

    Mr Terrific. Now you’re telling us that those thousands healed were healed and delivered by demonic authority?
    If satan cast out Satan he is deviding against himself. How shall then his kingdom stand?mat 12:26.what can you also say about the open cancers and ucer that gets closed up. Also demonic or manipulated?
    I pray for God to open the eyes of your faith. So you’ll be able to comprehend the truth.

    @JANE. I appreciate your level of maturity in the things of the spirit.i don’t think Giles payed any attention to such.

    • Doi – on this site there are the tales of two women who were declared healed of cancer by TBJoshua – Anna and Giles’ mum. Both are now dead. Not healed. As Kate pointed out, at no point has TBJ or people from SCOAN admitted that they got it badly wrong. Nobody is saying that no one has been healed.

      Anna was a strong, spirit filled christian – one of the saddest things is that she died under the belief that her lack of faith prevented her from being healed. She may be OK now as she is, I believe, in heaven, but her family and friends have been denied her company and her sons have had to grow up without their mother.

      Doi, I beg you, if you ever get cancer and receive healing, check with the doctors before giving up on medical treatment and if you remain sick, know that it is not your lack of faith or personal sin that causes the illness to persist. Your family and friends love you and want you here with them, not dead like Anna and Giles’ mum.

    • Doi, one thing ive noticed about you. you have ZERO compassion. Soe was the same.

      But then again, thats what my family said about me during my scoan involvement. this was the reason why i left. it had nothing to do with sex allegations. it was this kind of character trait i observed in everyone involved with scoan.

  17. Although I would find a reply to what Doi is asking interesting, we have established by now that miracles are not a sign whether someone is of God or not.

    Matthew 24:24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

    And Matthew 7:22-23 we have mentioned numerous times now.

    Now Doi I am not saying he is not, but I am still waiting for a reply on the following which is to me of much greater concern than these miracles which are of less importance, and if you state that these miracles are proof then you are ignoring the scriptures as set out above.

    I want to know from you, Does TB Joshua sin? I believe this question was asked several times before and still we are waiting for an answer to this question.

    • @ Cautious,

      You don’t need to ask Doi this question as to whether TBJ is a sinner. The Bible makes it plain that ALL HAVE SINNED, and that includes the charlatan, T B Joshua. The only one who never sinned is the Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God. Now, Doi cannot answer this question, because they consider this crook as ” infallible,” which is laughable, to say the least. T B Joshua is the piper who also pays the piper and plays his own tune, and NO ONE under his roof dare sing a different tune. I dare Doe to answer if he/she could.

      • @Terrific – To get an answer out of Doi regarding certain issues requires a lot of patience. He knows there is no way around the Scriptures mentioned, unless he of course choose to reject the Scripture by claiming that TB Joshua is without sin.

  18. Hello Doi,

    You don’t read your bible well do you Doi. You only read those things you want to read and discard the rest of probability or possibility. God heals, Jesus heals, but Satan does too. For your information it is the Bible.

    Here:

    2Thessalonians 2:9-10 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

    And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so. And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye? And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. Acts 19:14-16

    When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh with himself SEVEN OTHER SPIRITS more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation. Matthew 12:43-45

    And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. And he doeth GREAT WONDERS, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And DECEIVETH them that dwell on the earth by the means of those MIRACLES which he had POWER to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. Revelation 13:11-14

    The answer is, absolutely that Satan can heal, but in a very ‘counterfeit’ sort of way. Satan can cause sickness, and mankind is born into a sinful evil world. What you see as being a miraculous healing by today’s false prophets is none other than Satan taking away the sickness / injury he had given the person in the first place. Satan can not do any good, he is the father of LIES.

    And lying they are good in, just check out the Skynews and BBC Report and Bill Randles Report from way back in 2002.

    • @ Nanardi,
      Thank you ! You see, the reason many of us went to SCOAN is that we were deceived by the miracles and signs, not knowing the scriptures speak about these things. Now, the most valuable lesson I’ve learnt is that miracles and signs don’t validate any ministry, and that’s why the Lord rejected these lawless people who did amazing things in His name. Matt 7:21-23.

  19. Thanks Doi, I appreciate the comment. Yes, I think you might be right that Giles perhaps did not reason the way I did, but I feel for him as I can associate with exactly what he must have been going through. His situation is however a bit different from mine as I understood that TB Joshua prophesied that his mother would live. This was not the case with my mother. We all know what the Bible says when someone prophesies and what he prophesies does not become true, but then again I don’t know the background here. If what Giles said is true, then it does leave a question mark? Maybe you would like to explain….

    Also I am of the opinion that SCOAN encourages people to reject their medication after prayer as an act of faith, hence the reason I said that I am glad that my mother did not follow my advice to not go for the operation.

    • no jake, i reached the same conclusion as you. i just dont know why she died. several of my friends died in afghan despite my prayers, and that also been another great question mark. i have accepted i will just never know.
      my conclusions were that one thing is certain- all die, whether in cancer or war. in light of that fact, the greater question is how is your relationship with the Lord.

  20. @ Doi,

    How easily it is to deceive anyone ? Again the bible says it clearly here:

    2 Corinthians 11:3

    But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, YOUR MINDS will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.

    And regarding HEALINGS from Jesus HIMSELF let me make it clear to you that Jesus did exactly the following and the opposite of T. B. Joshua.

    regarding the healings themselves:

    Jesus NEVER publicised His healings, nor had a healing ministry, known as Jesus Ltd or Inc. He did not use it as an excuse to raise money either. In fact there were times he told those he healed to tell no one. Matthew 8:1-4, 9:27-31

    Jesus healed every kind of infirmity. Matthew 9:35

    Jesus He did not have special days for healing specific illnessess. Nor any specific time periods when healings would take place.

    Jesus NEVER performed a partial healing. People where “made whole” INSTANTLY when Jesus healed. Jesus NEVER told the person that it would take time for them to recover.
    Matthew 15:29-31; Mark 7:31-37 except on 1 or 2 occasions where he did send someone away, 1. Leper and 1 Blind person. Everything else was instantly. All I see is crazy, screaming, frothing people rolling over the floor as IF everyone is demon possessed or has to be possessed.

    Jesus NEVER failed to heal anyone in His attempt to heal a person. He never had to make any embarassing explanations.

    Jesus NEVER healed by faith alone, but by divine power that was given to Him by His Father and was empowered by the Holy Spirit to do this SOVEREIGNLY and approved by His Father.

    It was well known How Jesus did it, He was going out in prayer and spoke to His Father first and then He went out to heal in most of all occasions EVERYONE. Except 1 or 2 occasions where they deliberately did not believe Him and He could not do it.

    • @ Nanardi,

      Thank you once again, for helping out with explanations and hoping people visiting this site will have a lot to learn and come out of their delusions. Now regarding the ” Toronto Blessing, ” did it start after Arnold visited Lagos or before ? Just curious ?

  21. @scott, u can call me all sorts of names, bt that cant change d fact that my uncles ar healed at scoan & d fact that i cnt give any of their adresses 2 u 2 satisfy ur doubting mind no! Continue doubting while t.b joshua is growing mightly day by day cnt u see?, t.b joshua critics if u feel t.b joshua is a false prophet using satanic powers why nt u dat poses d real power of God go 2 him & deliver him, it is time 4 u 2 go into action rather than wasting ur time criticisng a man of God that doesnt even kno u exist, atleast t.b joshua heal the sick, feed the poor, the widows, the physicaly challange etc, he also give acurrate prophecies concernin individuals & countries, preach the word of God & put smiles on the face of thousands, all these done by these man t.b joshua in Jesus name, let me ask u t.b joshua critics which one hav u done in the name of jesus??

    • Halita, I totally understand why you wouldn’t give your uncles’ personal details out to someone on the internet. But I’m v interested to know why doing so would risk their healing. Don’t you believe that once someone is healed they stay healed?

    • Halita. Let’s imagine I create a drug that I claim can totally cure AIDS, don’t you think people would want to see proof? TB Joshua is claiming people he prays for are healed of AIDS and can quit their medication, yet you’re criticising us for asking for proof! While Ole Anthony’s request may have seemed a little unusual, if you’d have clicked on his name you’d see he works for the Trinity Foundation, one of the world’s foremost authorities on religious fraud. They would be a good organisation to validate TB Joshua’s healing ministry, so if you’re so sure about it, what have you got to lose?

  22. Halita – I cannot answer for the others on this site as I do not know them but I can talk about the churches in my local area where people pray for healing, go out into the community and support the poor, preach the word of God etc – christians around the world do all these things. In this area, local churches work together through a programme called ‘Healing on the Streets’ where local christians go out onto the streets and pray for people (they set up chairs in the high street and people can come for healing).

    The difference between these christians and TBJ is that they’re not on the Forbes rich list, they don’t encourage people to cease medication without medical advice and when allegations of sexual impropriety are made they are investigated.

    If you look at the Sky news report you will see the spokesman from the Terence Higgins Trust say about how their work with people with HIV and Aids is supported by churches.

    The bible says that when you give you should do it in secret so that even your left hand does not know what your right hand is doing. Just because people don’t publicise what they’re doing, it doesn’t mean they’re doing nothing.

    And yes I do pray for TB Joshua and all associated with him.

  23. Sory @claire i wasnt referring 2 ur local churches as i didnt kno them iam refering 2 u in person which one hav u done in jesus name? @ kate i believ if smbdy is heal in d name of jesus dat person is heal permanently atleast d case of my uncles serve as an example bt i dnt believ in given any evidence or adress of my uncles just 2 satisfy a doubting mind which is why i used d term”riskn dia healing” & 1 more tin @kate can u pls tel me which one u hav done in jesus name? Atleast since t.b joshua is doin al these in the name of jesus & u t.b critics says he is a false prophet then u dat poses the geniue power of God should be able 2 do smtin far greater than wht t.b joshua is doin, & since u t.b joshua critics poses d geniue power of God u should be able 2 cast or deliver false prophet lyk t.b joshua as u said, dnt u tink so??

    • Hi Halita – I don’t think it’s appropriate to go into what I do, or what any individual contributors to this site do – part of the point of my comment was that we shouldn’t be publicising what we do, we should get on and do it quietly. God knows and the people involved know, that’s all that matters.

      • I agree with both Ian and Claire. Yes, I pray for people all the time but I’m not going to boast about specifics to try and glorify myself. That’s not the point of prayer, surely?!

    • @Halita,
      Are you saying John the Baptist was not God’s prophet because he did no miracles nor cast out demons like Jesus did ?

  24. I PERSONALLY CURSE U BY THE NAME OF THE LORD FOR U HAVE BEEN INSULTING
    THE WHOLLY GHOST TODATE.
    if u r really judging scoan why dont u count those who r healed at SCOAN.dont worry
    U will reap what U R SOWING

    • love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you.
      – jesus

      Theres that fruit popping up again 🙂

  25. May God continue 2 bless t.b joshua as i wait 4 t.b joshua critics who poses d geniue power of God 2 cast & deliver false prophet lyk t.b joshua as they hav said, atleast millions of people ar smilling & given God d glory 4 d wondaful tins God is doin 2ru diz man t.b joshua, if al the works of jesus was nt recorded in d bible, i wonder hw it could hav bn 4 our generation or wil u also cal dat publicising 2 @claire??, even the bible say let ur light so shine among men…..that they may glorify ur father which is in heaven( sory i 4gt d words in between) bt if u ar so familiar wit d verse cn u shed more light on wat it means? So far i havnt seen any man of God lyk t.b joshua, d people dat ar criticing him 2 me do so as a result of jealousy & envy, t.b joshua critics do ur own & let t.b joshua do his own, bt if u ar so interestd in t.b joshua then go & deliver him or better stil sue him in a court of law, i realy prefer u 2 go into action than just writn a post here while t.b joshua doesnt even kno u exist. T.b Joshua u ar 1 in a million, kip on d gud works.

    • Hi Halita. This is my answer to your question about publicising. If I pray for you and you are blessed as a result, if I tell people about it, that is self-aggrandisement and is wrong. However if you tell people that God has blessed you, praising God for what he did, that is fine.

      However, if you were to tell people that I prayed for you and it was because I prayed for you that you were blessed, then I would be very uncomfortable with that. I would feel that it could be implied by other people that there is something special about me, when of course there isn’t – anything that happens as a result of my prayer is all down to God.

      So when you say that God has healed your uncles of HIV, that is great news and we can rejoice with you and them. But I do not want to get into what has happened as a result of my prayers or actions as that would not be right.

  26. @Mesfin,

    Hahahaha, Have you not read ? Mesfin

    Proverbs 26:2 As the bird by wandering, as the swallow by flying, so the curse causeless shall not come. Mawhahahaha. Sorry, I really had to laugh about it.

    Mesfin CLEARLY does not realize that the bible says:

    Romans 12:14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and CURSE not. <~~~~~~

    Another whacko that has not read their bible properly and goes completely berserker in their head. This is what I mean by NOT reading their bible, applying it practically and understanding what I wrote up here in other posts.

    So I send that illegitimate curse back in the Hands of Jesus Christ Who will determine what to do with it.

  27. Thank God we agree the miracles are true and real. After much proof of Open sores, cancer, ulcer etc. Except Narnadi who is using Jesus’ case to compare.but you should understand we’re saying the same thing here.the few you say do not get their healing now, like in Jesus’ time are the few you pay more attention to. For those that weren’t healed, don’t you think Jesus prayed and decleared them free? Only to find out they weren’t? Mark 6:5.
    I’ll humbly want Cautious, Terrific, Narnadi etc. To point the true and false prophets. Cos it seems like you know them.
    @ Jake. It hasn’t been strongly proven, not by BBC,SKY or Tb Joshua watch that Scoan tells people to stop taking med. The only evidence they had were questionable and for sure thats why they are still probing.

    • the few you say do not get their healing now, like in Jesus’ time are the few you pay more attention to.

      Er… that’s because they died.

      Mark 6:5 says he “could do no miracles there” because of their unbelief. It doesn’t say he declared them healed, but because of their unbelief they fell back into their sickness and died.

    • @Doi,
      Please don’t jump to the conclusion that ” we agree the miracles are true and real.” We have said extensively that false prophets are also able to perform great signs, wonders, healing and deliverance. T B Joshua is a false prophet because he does not have the doctrine of Christ. He has made many false predictions and it takes only one false prophesy to make one a false prophet, even if 99.9% of it is true. T B Joshua does not have the Spirit of God, though he claims to be the ” carrier” of the Holy Spirit, and, in effect, the only one baptized with the Spirit, which is a BIG lie of the Devil. He does not bear the fruit of the Spirit, because he does not have the Spirit in the first place.He puts himself in the ranks of my Lord Jesus, making him one of the many Anti Christs in the world today. T B Joshua is not the only false prophet. Like the Lord said, there are many of them, but T B Joshua is the leader of them all, deceiving and being deceived.

  28. Cautious. The moment we christ payed the debt our past became over.when we’re born again we become the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. 2 cor 5:20. Though we may wrong, we immediately run to Him to make them right.Remember when we sin Satan has a foothold in our heart and this makes us far from God. Can we say Tb Joshua is far from God? NO. His relationship with God is waxing stronger no matter what anyone says.

  29. @Doi – you are missing the point. I myself was involved in the ministry for many years. I don’t need SKY, BBC or anyone else to tell me what I already know. Remember, I was also one of those that believed that as an act of faith my mother was for example to cancel her operation. Now I know better.

    I do understand my previous reasoning of being against medication, operations etc. and I do understand this reasoning of those involved in SCOAN ( I am not holding this against them), although I realise this is not the best way to go about things. There is nothing wrong with being wrong and to admit it. I have been wrong in the past in the way I reasoned about these things, but because of my own personal experience (life experience) I have changed my belief in this regard for the better. Mistakes are correctable. Belief me when you are in the midst of a situation like I explained above, you do a lot of reflection and that is what I needed, to come to a different conclusion. It took me a while to realise that it is not necessary to reject medication necessarily while waiting on God to heal you as already explained previously. If SCOAN agrees that this is how they do things and this is what other’s that communicate here believe also, then there is no problem here. If this is not the case of how they operate, that they say one thing and does another, then it is indeed an issue.

    If they want to admit that they have been wrong in the past about the way they handled situations, like I also had to admit that I was wrong in the past and they now want to come to the same conclusion that I have come to, then fantastic, no issue here. The problem is Doi, people got hurt and these people are scared that others will get hurt also because of these beliefs of rejecting medication, cancelling hospital appointments etc. as an act of faith.

    Hope it is clear.

  30. @DOi – I think you will gain much better understanding of what the reasons are for me posting here if you go and read my comments to David on the article I posted, Why cautious left Part 1. It is in part, if not full, a response to your question above. I only added that comment yesterday as I did not realise that David referred to me some time ago and I never responded because of that reason.

    We were not called to judge, but we are instructed by the Word of God to examine everything in the light of His Word. I have a right and a responsibility to ask questions in the light of God’s Word to make sure that the Word of God comes to it’s right and if anything regarding the Word of God seems to be twisted, then God himself instructs us to examine everything in the light of His Word and to make sure that the Word comes to it’s right. This is all I am trying to do here as I have several concerns and as soon as you can help me to solve these concerns, I will stop posting here, cause then I will be satisfied that either we agree or we agree to disagree. This agreement or disagreement I mean as an agreement or disagreement in regards to what we believe the Word of God says regarding these issues.

    Doi for me it is not an issue whether TB Joshua sins less than most other people in your opinion – as this is surely what one would expect from a man of God. My question is do you believe that TB Joshua sins at all? That’s what I want to know and I also want to know why is it that each time this question is asked there is either silence or it seems that disciples are trying to answer in a seemingly clever way as to make others perceive that the question has been answered, but as a matter of fact, it is not. Let’s keep it simple. Does TB Joshua sin? Yes or No. That’s all, only respond yes or no.

    I will be waiting for your response here and will keep on asking this question until I have a yes or a no answer.

  31. Doi,

    Two Yes/No questions, followed by two open ended questions for you:

    1) Do you believe that ceasing medication without taking medical advice upon being declared healed by a faith is essential to healing?
    Yes/No?

    2) Do you believe that either SCOAN in Lagos or in the UK are promoting this message either explicitly or implicitly? (the impression I am left with is that they are, albeit by implication – it leaves me feeling that this is their message, but they are wary that it would not be acceptable to the public were it to be ‘proven’)
    Yes/No?

    3) If you answered ‘No’ to both of those questions, (and by your comment “It hasn’t been strongly proven, not by BBC,SKY or Tb Joshua watch that Scoan tells people to stop taking med” I take it that is your position?) – what would you do if you WERE to discover someone who represented SCOAN promoting this message?

    4) In the light of these recent BBC/Sky reports, do you think SCOAN need to be explicit about ensuring anyone healed from serious illnesses gets professional medical confirmation afterwards to avoid any confusion? (I understand that SCOAN request a copy of a medical report prior to attending a healing meeting – is this correct? If so, why not have a medical report for afters too?)

    Thank you,
    NM

  32. @ Doi,

    Sin will always be, because it is in our flesh (body), Greek word Sarx (Ask Harry, he is Greek) (even if Satan and all his demons will be taken away from this world) we still would sin because it is ingrained in us, THAT IS WHY WE NEED THE BLOOD OF JESUS TO ATTONE FOR OUR SINS.

    When are you going to read your bible, Doi ?

    For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Romans 5:7-13

    And again you misrepresent me with saying that I don’t believe in miracles. I never said that. But Miracles or Healings will not SAVE ME, OK, DOI !

    Again you are led by miracles, physical appearances and the like, while you wipe away the deeper matters that are of greater concern for the Christian life.

    Doi, you can have all the miracles in the world there are, but if your are NOT SAVED it is does not matter.

    I have little interest in pointing out more false prophets, because there are numerous or even countless one’s everywhere.

    Prove me one World Disaster that will come to pass in 2012, that T. B. Joshua will prophesy and it will be prevented in it’s entirety. If he speaks to God that God will listen to him right ? So Doi, get cracking and make it worthwhile for me on this site.

    @ Doi, “It hasn’t been strongly proven, not by BBC,SKY or Tb Joshua watch that Scoan tells people to stop taking med. The only evidence they had were questionable and for sure thats why they are still probing.”

    Doi, I wish that I could say otherwise, but DENIAL is not a river in Egypt. And as far as I can bring up patience with you, I would say you just have a steel plate in front of your head, because you don’t listen for one second what I say here to you. I want you to focus on Jesus Christ, what He does and what He says and how He does it, not how anybody else does it. It could be that you are brainwashed or your spiritual eyes are blinded by all the claimed miracles you purport.

    You are not willing to learn something that is right and I have pointed it out to you and you still droning on in your own little world of T. B. Joshua as a record that is stuck in it’s groove. It could be that they put those blinkers on your eyes so you can’t see further than your nose long is.

    Get out of your comfort zone and look in your bible and start reading it from cover to cover instead of second hand me down stories from T. B. Joshua. It’s about your life not anybody else’s.

    I will give you a scripture you can chew for a while upon for now:

    Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. Hebrews 12:1-2

    Keep looking towards Jesus and what He says, does and instructs instead of T. B. Joshua.

  33. @ NM,

    @ point 4 “In the light of these recent BBC/Sky reports, do you think SCOAN need to be explicit about ensuring anyone healed from serious illnesses gets professional medical confirmation afterwards to avoid any confusion? (I understand that SCOAN request a copy of a medical report prior to attending a healing meeting – is this correct? If so, why not have a medical report for afters too?)”

    Totally agree with you NM, especially the after one’s and rather have the doctor or surgeon come around and testify. This is absolutely not racially meant at all, but preferably from non African origins and/or from any country from Africa where T. B. Joshua is connected or revered. For example a professor in Health and Medication. How about bringing up Lord N. Fowler in that case ?

    wwwparliament.uk/biographies/lords/26843

    Because I for one am fed up about the lying and skyving that I believe is taking place. Let’s get down to the bottom of it and to the real truth.

  34. In fact Some question doesn’t actually require a yes or no answer. As answering wether Tb Joshua Sins or not will not change anything. Will it? My opinion does not count here as you guys are only trying to pull my legs. does my opinion make Him a sinner or righteous man? NO. It makes no difference. We are all entitled to Ours.Wether He sins or not is my Opinion and a personal conviction. My dear Cautious if you really want to Know Tb Joshua, or know wether He sins or not, why not Ask God.and that becomes personal to you aswell. Or will my opinion make you believe He is or not of God? Its a certain NO.

    Mr Terrific. You should get me clear. If you are saying Tb Joshua is the master of all false prophets You should also be able to tell me the genuine ones. As the spirit that revealed the one of Tb Joshua should reveal other true and false prophets to you also. If you wouldn’t call their names i’ll just consider your words and impressions vague.

    • In fact Some question doesn’t actually require a yes or no answer.

      True, but this one does!

      Wether He sins or not is my Opinion and a personal conviction

      No it’s not, it’s a profoundly important theological matter that cuts right to the heart of the gospel. Look at these two verses:
      “…we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.” (Hebrews 4:15)

      “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” (2 Corinthians 5:21)

      Both these verses clearly show that Jesus is a sinless man, everyone else sins! To claim that a man does not sin is to say he is equal to Christ. If you can’t give a clear and emphatic “Yes!” to the question “Does TB Joshua sin?” then you make it quite clear to us that to you he is a false christ.

  35. @NM. I would say NO. I don’t think it’s essential to healing.But it also has to do with the individual. His faith and belief. you should have seen times without number Tb Joshua advising people to see their doctors after healing. Do you watch Emmanuel tv? Like the boy who could not eat due to acid intake. We have seen people with Hiv bring medical reports of Positive and negative statements by their doctors. If doctors aren’t important they wouldn’t be told to seek the doctors reports or advice.
    If doctors aren’t important there would be no place like medical department in Scoan.
    Just imagine a place with medical dept.advice people to stop medications? Isn’t that strange? Can we see people have become so idle that the only thing that comes to mind is forge thing against A man of God. Take a look at my advice in watchtbjoshua site.

  36. Ian. I do have a yes or No answer but it just wouldn’t be necessary to say it unless you tell me what my opinion stands to change. If you already have your opinion then why bother me.if my opinion is truely of use, then i wouldn’t hesitate to reply. Therefore TB Joshua is no false Christ to me. He’s a man of God. For this generation.

    To clear this all up.can someone tell me in one sentence how Scoan or TB Joshua tells people to stop taking medications. Cos the only proof i can see is 1.He was very clear telling me to stop taking med. ie. trying to explain the actual words.
    2. Taking medications will mean an act of doubt. How does these relate to telling them to stop medications?

    • The fact that you say you have a yes/no answer, yet you constantly refuse to give it tells me all I need to know. Thanks.

  37. What is a True Prophet ?

    The finest example of a true prophet is our Lord Jesus Christ who was specially chosen by God to speak for Him. Hebrews. 1:1-3 He utters the actual words that God has given him, without any modification or interpretation on his part John 12:49-50. The Bible itself gives an accurate description of the function of the true prophet: “And the LORD said to me: ‘What they have spoken is good. I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him.” Deuteronomy 18:18 God placed the words in the prophet’s mouth. They were revealed to him and then he spoke precisely what God had commanded him.

    Every prophetic word that Jesus said were exactly confirmed as He said them. For example to Peter and getting the coin out of the fish’s mouth:

    The Miracle.

    It was not a miracle that the fish had a coin. The miracle was that it was the FIRST fish that Peter caught. Can you imagine him there all afternoon on the shore; casting in his hook, catching a fish, checking for a coin, and finding nothing?

    But Peter didn’t argue. He didn’t doubt. He believed what Jesus told him.

    We too can have confidence in God’s promises. We can accept that what God has promised us is true. We don’t need to doubt, we just need to believe that He can and will supply all our needs.

    Matthew 17:24-27

    And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute?

    He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?

    Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free.

    Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.

    Or would you rather hear a “prophecy” which football club has won ? Doi Which has no use for anyone except gamblers and no spiritual EDIFICATION AT ALL that for those that hear them and go Ooooh, Aahhhh T. B. Joshua is a “real man of God”. If you don’t get the difference, there is no point explaining it to you next time again, to my view your are stuck.

  38. Ian this proves to me that you wanted my opinion for your selfish interest. Nothing more. If it was genuine you’ll not withold telling me how my opinion will help or change matters.

  39. @Doi – I would stand with what Jake said on the issue of medication and this settles it for me. Will allow others to further comment on it if they wish to do so.

    @Doi – Ian thanks for these two scriptures. “…we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.” (Hebrews 4:15)
    “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” (2 Corinthians 5:21)

    I will add to it 1 John 1:8 that says “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

    Also Romans 3:23 – All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Emphasis on ALL Doi.

    Doi, don’t you get it, if you and others believe TB Joshua is without sin then it means that you make Christ out to be a liar. The scripture can’t be more clear about it that all have sinned and are in need of salvation. The Bible cannot be more clear in 1 John 1:8 and it also answers your question on how to identify a false prophet. The Bible itself says that if someone claims to be without sin the truth is not in that person, cause ALL have sinned and continues to sin.

    I cannot spell it out more than I already did and your unwillingness to answer has now revealed what you and others believe, which I already knew anyways, and then you still question why I and others have a problem with some of the practices and believes? Or should we get SOE here again to confirm this by adding the claim that TB Joshua’s words are equal to Scripture.

    Can’t you see that this is blasphemy and idolatry in the highest order, to raise someone to that status of being equal to Christ himself. For such I cannot stand as this is not what the Word teaches, and the Word of God is the final authority. Now does SCOAN not communicate that we should make God’s Word the standard for our lives and to test everything in the light of God’s Word? With this teaching I agree, and that is what I am doing. I am now just trying to establish why in this regard the believe mentioned here does not line up with scripture?

    Like I said however Doi I have not come to a final conclusion already like others have, but these issues we are discussing here now is helping me to come to that final conclusion, hence the reason I am discussing here.

    How on earth in the light of what I just mentioned can you say that the question I raised does not matter? So I will ask my question again. Does TB Joshua sin? Yes or No.

    Doi and also just to make sure you understand, for me personally it is not that much about TB Joshua here, no attack on any personality, not the intention, but I am examining these believes in the light of God’s Word and are instructed by the Word to do so and this question that I raised definitely demands an answer.

    • “Or should we get SOE here again to confirm this by adding the claim that TB Joshua’s words are equal to Scripture.”
      Oh, that’s only the start of what Soe believes…. He’s even been denying Jesus’ divinity in conversations I’ve had with him on another blog. Promote TB Joshua, demote Jesus, that’s his game.

  40. @ Nanardi my advice to you is keep watching Emmanuel Tv. I know you don’t.If you do, you would see football predictions are just an atom compared to the world prophecies given by Tb Joshua. I can’t start debating on this with you now.
    I think i have questions that are yet to be answered.

  41. Cautious if this is what is making you come to a conclusion. (Not what you believe Tb Joshua did or what He is but what others opinion of Him are).then i’ll say you’re geting it totally wrong. Whatever we say does not change anything about Him. I was actually ready to disclose my opinion but you all keep making it difficult. I think i’ll have to drop this here. But i know for sure Tb Joshua has two natures. Human and divine.

    • @ Doi,
      That’s BALDERDASH ! T B Joshua is just a common sinner, and a grievous one at that. You see, you deluded people want to put this petty criminal on an equal level as my Lord Jesus who alone was both human and divine. Fatai Balogun, aka T B Joshua, does not have Holy Spirit, let alone being divine. He is so deceived, he thinks he is Jesus, but in reality, he is ” Another Jesus” just like the Bible says.

    • Just to be clear, when you write ‘He’ ‘His’ ‘Him’ when referring to tbj, are you doing so because you consider him to be equal to God?
      Read Exodus 20; ‘you shall have NO gods beside Me’! ‘There are 3 that testify in Heaven’, the Father, the Son and the Spirit, NOT Joshua, the Father, the Son, the Spirit.
      You are treading on dangerous ground here. Please read your Bible; ALL of it in context. Jesus has warned countless times that many will come in His Name (not just Jesus’, but GOD’s Name) claiming to be He.

  42. @Doi Can you say what is the teaching from SCOAN about doubt?
    My own (quite small) direct experience of SCOAN is that doubts are just not permitted. Mentioning anything that indicates doubts will be met with either a reprimand, or being pointedly ignored, very definitely being given a message of strong disapproval. Imagine the person who holds TBJoshua in high regard and is told by him that they are healed but is still aware of some of the signs of illness in their body. They are fearful to go to the medical department because they do not want to be seen as doubting. They are sat in a room for days watching TV where thousands of people are saying “I was healed and no longer required my medicine” which gives the impression that this is the same for everyone. Imagine being surrounded by people who will tell you off if you express doubts and surrounded by people expressing adoration to TBJoshua. Imagine how confusing that must be.
    Where there is a strong enough injunction against expressing doubts or questions then specific words are not required. It only needs to be implied that continuing to take medication is an indication of doubt.

  43. Hi Doi. I think this has been a really interesting discussion and I am intrigued by your view of TBJ as both human and divine. In particular I am intrigued as to where you see TBJ in relation to the Godhead and to the rest of humanity – what is his relationship to Jesus for example? I wonder also whether this means that the phrase ‘Man of God’ that many contributors to this site have applied to him, has a particular meaning beyond my understanding of the phrase as another way of saying ‘christian’? Would you be able to clarify that for me as well please? Thanks.

  44. @Mr terrific let me ask u a question who re u to say he is a common sinner.re u God to say the least. Can a common sinner be used as an instrument just like he is been used. So dont do things that wil provoke the Holy spirit.@Doi i really admire people like u but keeping ur answer is what i dont support let us know ur mind on dis situation.

    • mso- the bible says it, thats who.
      for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
      TB joshua is a sinner, no different than i.

    • @ Msi,
      You see, the Bible says that God’s people perish, because of their lack of knowledge. Hosea 4:6. You have not even learnt from this site that the Bible declares everyone a sinner ! How pitiful ! No wonder T B Joshua is riding high on the backs of you ignorant and deluded folks. Please read your Bible and learn it very well. Again, you need to know that Joshua is an agent of Satan, and Satan’s agents can also work miracles.

      @ALL,
      It must not go without comments that T B Joshua now claims to have BOTH DIVINE AND HUMAN NATURES like the Lord Jesus. This is THE BIGGEST BLASPHEMY any false prophet can claim, and puts T B Joshua as the LEADING FALSE PROPHET in the world today. And remember, readers, that whatever comments come from Doi has been carefully doctored and sanctioned by the charlatan, Fatai Balogun T B Joshua. They’re not the words of Doi, but T B Joshua himself speaking through and hiding behind his agents to say what he wants them to say.

  45. @Doi – You are saying I am making it difficult for you? How? I have made use of scripture only when I addressed you referring to 1 John 1:8 and Romans 3:23. This is not rocket science, Doi. Either you believe what the Scripture says or you reject what it says, there is no inbetween or looking for an excuse like you all make it difficult for me, I am rather going to keep quiet. This means that you have been silenced by the Word of God, but yet somehow you want to justify your belief that TB Joshua does not sin, hence the reason you refuse to answer my question. Also I am not trying to come to conclusions about TB Joshua based on the opinions of others about him, as you say. I am asking you about SCOAN’s belief here. You are a SCOAN disciple right? So if so, this means that you represent the beliefs of SCOAN, right? If you are not a disciple of SCOAN then I am wasting my time having conversation with you cause I am not asking for people’s opinions here, I am asking what SCOAN beliefs in regards to the question I raised. If you claim that TB Joshua is without sin, or imply it, like I believe you already have, then you communicate that you don’t believe the Scripture is true when it says that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Also can 1 John 1:8 be any clearer? If you find that Scripture is making it difficult for you to communicate your belief, then I feel quite uneasy about it on your behalf.

    Stop trying to avoid this question now Doi by making all kinds of excuses why you can’t answer this question. Give me SCOAN’s belief on this question. What does SCOAN disciples belief in this regard. Does TB Joshua sin? Yes, or no.

    • @Visser – It is pointless moving on to other questions unless Doi starts answering the questions already asked. You are right that things are just going to move in circles again if we don’t now press Doi for an answer, so we can move on to some other issues.

  46. @ Cautious,

    I understand why the answer to this question is so precious to you, but if you really know how SCOAN operates, Doi can’t answer, “yes.” You see, these people have become slaves to Satan and cannot even say what the word of God says. Who is this petty false prophet called TB Joshua who has imposed his will on these helpless and deluded people ?

  47. The problem is that we have too many cessationists who rather leave God in the fridge of their unbelief. But thanks be to God, miracles are abounding and the gifts of the Spirit are shining in third world countries while the West gives its back to God.

    • Actually, I don’t think any of the critics of TB Joshua who comment on this blog could be described as “cessationists”. Several have testified to miracles witnessed in their lives. But believing in the supernatural is not the same as believing that everything supernatural is of God.

      • Someone who believes that the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased at the end of the apostolic age.

      • im not a cessasionisisisist.
        my sister was healed of cancer- really healed many years ago although doctors gave her four months left to live.
        shes alive and well and is pregnant with her sixth child.
        i do know God can and does heal, Ironclad.

      • OK, not that’s not what I’d call most of the people on this site then…..I don’t recall anyone ever saying anything along those lines!

      • Giles, you believe speaking in tongues is one of the active gifts operating today? Cessationists denies all of the gifts.

      • I do. All gifts are active today. But unfortunately some churches made up a few of their own.

  48. This article smells like a lie. How can people here call out the gullibility of others and yet be guilty of the same vice? Why change the name? That wouldn’t matter since these will be matters of public record. No? Clearly, if the allegations are true, then a crime has been committed. Where ate the official investigations? A search in the major news sites returns nothing. Anyone can make up a story using pseudonymous names.

    • Clearly, if the allegations are true, then a crime has been committed. Where ate the official investigations?

      As you have no doubt seen, investigations are starting up through major news sites. I shouldn’t be surprised if the department of health in the UK were doing an official investigation into the AIDS deaths by now too. It’s not quite true to say that if the allegations are true a crime has been committed, because nobody has been forced to give up their medication, instead they’ve been put under intense emotional and spiritual manipulation. This is something very difficult to prove in court.

      As for people remaining anonymous or using false names, there was an article on here previously explaining this – they have good reasons!

      • Ian, if major news agencies have already been reporting on this, please post a link as from the Associated Press, for example.

      • @ Ian,

        The BBC news report you cited mentions a Jane Iwu (I don’t fail to notice the ‘Jane’ part of Doe) who “knows of a friend.” No name. No dates. There’s also mention of a “second woman from east London who told of a friend.” Notice, an unnamed woman tells of another unnamed woman. Both accounts are hearsay and thus not good admissible evidence. Where’s the third alleged victim? Can we really say with full confidence that these are worthy evidences to justify such a firm conclusion as the heading of the report proclaims?

        That’s misleading. Guilty until proven innocent is not a good Christian practice; but then again, who said these liberal news agencies are in favor of Christianity to begin with.

        News reporting should be more responsible than that. Maybe that’s why respectable news agencies like the AP have not picked up on it. We should not let bias blind us away from what is honest and true.

      • First of all, this conversation started because you said that if these allegations had any truth to them news agencies would be all over them. I said that they already were, you asked for links, I provided. What you make of the investigations is another issue, the point is reputable news agencies see these claims as credible enough that they are investigating and reporting them, that’s gotta say something.

        Secondly, your criticism of the fact the BBC story is being told by friends of the victims seems a little silly. How do you suggest the dead victims report what happened? Like I said before, the BBC is one of the most (if not the most) reputable news organisation in the world, they don’t put out stories without merit.

        Funny you don’t mention the Sky story, that had even more details and evidence in.

      • @ Ian,

        Hello. I was asking for reputable agencies, like the Associated Press. People are supposedly getting sexually abused and AIDS deaths are being connected to lying church pastors. Come on! These are juicy stories. And to make it even more sensational, the President of Nigeria is a personal friend of TB Joshua and a member of his church, along with other government officials and two other Presidents. If these allegations were truly happening, where can we find reports of investigations conducted by the authorities? The ‘major’ international news orgs would be all over this. And again, hearsay does not account as good source for respectable news reporting.

      • I say it again, the BBC is probably the most reputable news organisation in the world!

        As for the abuse claims, all abuse allegations I have heard of took place in Nigeria, so to any news organisation outside of Nigeria these are irrelevant stories. Over the years several Nigerian newspapers have actually reported these allegations, not sure how much of it is still available online though.

      • @ Ian,

        I work with a legal department here in the State of New Jersey. Causing people to commit acts which lead to their death, through psychological manipulation and deception, is called coercion and indeed a criminal offense. You don’t have to prove that force was used. That’s difficult to do anyway when dealing with mental states.

    • Hi Ironclad. the reason why an alias has been used for Anna and her family is for two reasons. Firstly, I raised the issue about her ‘healing’ and subsequent death in the first place and I am not family so I was not sure whether her family would want her name out there on the internet. Secondly her eldest son is still part of SCOAN and I was not sure what the implications would be for him if I used her name. I have no idea how he feels about her death and I don’t want to cause him any further distress.

      However I hope you can take on trust that I am not lying about this, why should I lie? If Anna had not died I am not sure how exercised I would be about the issue of telling people they’re healed when they’re not and dissuading them from further treatment by casting it in the light of ‘lack of faith’. Yes I would still care, but possibly not as passionately as I do. You presumably have not had to stand at the grave side of a close friend who refused treatment because she believed she had been healed, but I have.

      I can take you to Anna’s grave – I am not sure what you would say then though – would you believe I lied that that was her or would you believe I lied that she had been told she had been healed? I do not expect people who have 100% faith in TBJ to change their point of view but I do hope that if they get sick and are told they’re healed, that they only withdraw treatment under medical supervision. I really do not want other people to suffer the loss of a loved one unnecessarily.

      And if you’re querying the need for an alias, is Ironclad your real name? Because my real name is Claire.

      • Hi Claire. You do know that if what you say is true, then the perpetrators are liable for manslaughter, at least? This indeed has all the trappings of an indictable offense. Have the police been conducting an investigation? Are there lawsuits pending? I know Great Britain has a very severe judicial system. And the President of Nigeria would not allow one of its citizens, whom he personally knows, to get away with this. It is not good for the nation or his political reputation.

    • I don’t need to travel to a far away country to realize that in every church and in every movement there will always be those who will stir the waters of controversy because of envy or because something that has been done against them. There will always be opponents. Such reality we also find in the Bible. Christian history is filled with it.

      • Do you consider that opening a discussion in which one follower of a particular church leader claims that their leader is part human and part divine to be stirring the waters of controversy?
        I would say that such a controversial statement should be brought into the light and open for scrutiny.

      • @madelaine,

        I thought this was a discussion of one of the particular leaders, not a so called “follower.”. Are pastors now held accountable for what their church members say or do outside of church?

        People could say anything on this board or forum. There’s no way of verifying. This exasperated In an age of high tech and stolen identities.

        And no, I don’t believe TB Joshua has a divine part, unless you are speaking of the residence of the Holy Spirit and of the presence of Christ in his heart.

      • It is good to hear, Ironclad that you do not believe that TB Joshua has a divine part. Doi has been a contributor to the comments on this site for a long time, consistently and confidently presenting a viewpoint about the man in such a way that I for one have assumed that the things said did in fact represent the views of SCOAN.

        @Doi – please can you explain the statement that you have made about the divine part of TB Joshua
        Is this just your own personal belief?

      • I happen to be from Nigeria and I can confidently tell you that the Nigeria is corrupt (To begin to get into the corruption in Nigeria will take all day).
        The truth is the president has many ‘friends’ and it easy for any of these ‘friends’ to make bad stories/investigations go away with the right amount of money. We see it everyday with ex officials being put on trial and nothing coming of it.
        I am not sure if you were asking why no Nigerian authorities have investigated these claims, if so, this is why.

  49. TB J on Sunday services calls: God as the Father, as the Lord, as Lord Jesus. He gives thanks to the Holy Spirit. It means that he had to be saved one day in the past by reciving Jesus Christ into his heart, that his sins where forgiven. You people I belive you have not the problem with TBJ but with yourself and the problem is that you do not see it.

    • It means that he had to be saved one day in the past by reciving Jesus Christ into his heart, that his sins where forgiven.

      That all sounds very reasonably, but ask the likes of Soe and Doi if TB Joshua ever had any sins to be forgiven? You won’t get a straight answer out of them, because basically they don’t believe it.

  50. @ironclad – Please read my comments above in previous posts.Doi which is commenting here is not an outsider, he is a SCOAN disciple. This means that he represents SCOAN in his conversations here and communicates the believes of SCOAN here. I made it clear in my previous post. Whenever a SCOAN pastor, SCOAN disciple or SCOAN worker communicates here, I think it is fair to expect that what they comment here should represent the teachings of SCOAN. How can their believes and opinions be different from the church they represent. Surely they are familiar with it’s teachings and doctrines. If they don’t represent the church well with what they communicate or their comments is not in line with what the church stands for, then maybe they should not be in a position where they represent the views and beliefs of the church. It is a much different case with outsiders and SCOAN supporters. They are not in a position of power where they represent the church and I would not interpret their comments as the views of SCOAN, but will see that as mere an opinion from an outsider. Hence the reason I explained that I don’t want to be wasting my time speaking to outsiders about what SCOAN beliefs as they would not know as they don’t know much more than what they see on Emmanuel TV and are not exposed to teachings that disciples are exposed to. It is fair to say that what they communicate is mere opinions as they don’t represent SCOAN as such.

    I don’t know how well you know SCOAN, but SCOAN disciples are usually either pastors or pastors in training. Yes, you will probably have disciples which might be happy to keep on working in other departments and never get to the point of becoming actual pastors, but the bottom line is that disciples have given up their lives for the ministry and serve in the ministry 24/7. If SCOAN disciples that serve in the ministry 24/7 communicate something different to what the ministry they serve in believes, then it sure must be one heck of a confused ministry.

    • Cautious, I cannot speak for others, but have you personally verified the credentials of said person? Anyone can claim anything in the Internet. It provides for an anonymous venture. And it is an edtablished fact that there are dozens of impostors operating in Nigeria and elsewhere, who steal the namebrand of the pastor to feign on the innocent, such is his fame. With a name like yours, I imagine you have been indeed cautious about what people present in the Internet.

  51. Some clarification. New Testament prophets (operational via the charismatic Gift of Prophecy) are not the same as Old Testament prophets as unto Moses. You cannot compare them using the same guide in the Pentateuch, for John the Baptist was the last one, though some First Century Jews would object and say the line ended back in Ezra’s day. These were Messianic prophets who, because Mesias had not yet come, their prophecies being intimately intertwined with His advent, God then had made it as an imperative that their words should not fall. That is why the Apostle John tells the primitive church to test the spirit, this injunction not making sense if the church prophets were indeed like Samuel or Elijah who needed no confirmation, their office having being alteady established, and their words inscribed as Canon.

    • @ Ironclad,
      What kind of theology is this and where did you pick this from ? New Testament prophets are just the same as Old Testament prophets, if they are genuine prophets and speak by the Spirit of God. It’s the same Spirit working through the old and the new and nothing has changed. Malachi 3:6; Hebrews 13:8. The apostles, John. Paul warned about testing the spirits because false prophets were already in the church even at that time ! Paul had to warn about this, even weeping. Acts 20:29-32. And, remember, false prophets in the Old Testament were stoned to death but God’s prophets never lied. The Spirit of God has not changed and God does not lie, and anyone who claims to speak by the mouth of the Lord does not lie, otherwise the prophesy is not from God but Satan !

      • Mr. Terrific, if NT prophets are the same as OT prophets then why is the Lord proclaiming that “all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John” (Matthew 11:13)?

        If you insist on an equivalency, then your position will make the Lord either a liar or one who is mentally lost.

      • In some ways I agree with you. The OT prophets are different from the NT ones. However most SCOAN people commenting on this site would sees TBJ as a OT prophet or even brother of Jesus (yes – and he has never refuted this).
        Although the purpose of prophecy has changed from the old to the new testaments, the standard for a prophet has not. If a prophet makes one wrong prophecy this person is not a prophet – that is why we know the Bible is true – prophecies coming to fulfilment in Jesus. Look through older posts to view accounts of where TBJ did not get things right. One bad prophecy = a false prophet.

      • @ Ironclad,
        Yes, the prophets prophesied until John. That does not make any difference between OT and NT prophets. This simply means John was the last prophet who came immediately before the Messiah, to prepare the way for the Lord. The same Spirit that spoke through the old prophets is the the same Spirit speaking through the new and Spirit of God does not speak lies. Many so called prophets today are just diviners, operating through charismatic witchcraft or prophesy through divination, and they lie, and don’t speak from the mouth of the Lord, but through demons !

  52. @ Ironclad,

    I know that you’ve never worked with SCOAN and so you have no clue as to what goes on behind the Iron Curtain called SCOAN. I personally know that Fatai Balogun T B Joshua, hides behind, and speaks through his messengers and Doe here on this blog is just speaking his master’s voice. T B JOSHUA says he has both human and divine natures like Jesus, and he wants the world to know. This is how he operates through his minions, to get the word out there, as if he doesn’t know anything about it. This man TBJ is a liar, a manipulator and a deceiver and I speak with all authority, because I know better !

    • Mr. Terrific,

      According to the below passage, TB Joshua passes the test of a true prophet since he indeed proclaims the divinity of Christ and that He has come in the flesh.

      “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.” (1 John 4:1-3 ESV)

      This is very different from the standard, classic test of a prophet given in the OT, for these lived at a time when Mesias had not yet come, their prophesying requiring firm demonstrations of confirmation so as to seal the verity of so solemn a message.

      Cessationists, on the other hand, will cry foul at any notice of supernatural revelation of knowledge and call someone a false prophet even if the accused demonstrates such capacity with 100% accuracy, thereby bypassing the OT model of testing prophets, even though a new model has been set in the NT. So you are damned if you do and damned if you don’t.

      • This is a funny one because Terrific’s belief is actually more similar to what it seems SCOAN teaches than Ironclad. I actually agree with Ironclad, as would (I think) most charismatics. Prophets of the Old Testament spoke God’s infallible words, the gift of prophecy in the New Testament is not the same as that. I would agree John was the last of the OT style prophets (or Jesus, but of course he was so much more than that). Terrific, Wayne Grudem (a theologian and one of the translators of the English Standard Version bible) is one of the most well know proponents of this view.

        If you say that NT prophets are the same as OT, then you either have to be cessationist (gift of prophecy ceased when the canon of scripture was closed), or you have to have an open canon view of scripture like the Mormons and (if you believe Soe) SCOAN (see his comments on the False Christ post). If there are prophets walking round today speaking the infallible word of God, then how can we say the canon is closed?

        As I see it, most charismatics accept that NT prophecy is not exactly the same as OT prophecy, because it’s problematic to believe in the modern day gift of prophecy, and affirm that the canon is closed. However SCOAN seems to believe that TB Joshua is a prophet in the OT sense and his words (when he’s guided by the spirit, which most think is all the time) are infallible words of God.

        So Terrific and Ironclad, I think you accidentally ended up on the opposite sides of the fence on this one!

      • Ian,

        It is not either cessationism or open canon dichotomy. There were prophets in the New Testament age and none of them wrote scripture.

      • It is not either cessationism or open canon dichotomy

        Er, yeah – that’s what I said! I’m agreeing with you! Did you miss that bit where I said “If you say that NT prophets are the same as OT”?

      • @ Ironclad,
        Proclaiming or affirming Biblical truth is one thing; having another spirit and proclaiming doctrines of demons is another.Remember the demons also believe but tremble.James 2:19. Also remember the slave girl in Acts 16:16-17. She proclaimed the truth, but spoke through demons, working through her. So just because T B Joshua affirms scripture doesn’t make him a true prophet. There’re several factors to be taken into account, indeed, the whole counsel of God, and TBJ is lacking and wanting in these factors some of which you can glean from this blog. I know it’s hard for most people to see TBJ as a false prophet because of their ignorance of scripture. It happened to me and I was thoroughly deceived but now I know the truth and the truth has set me free. Do you know that another false prophet, Adewole of the Celestial church, Nigeria, claimed Jesus has come back as a black man in the person of T B Joshua, and we swallowed the bait, hook, line and sinker ? Incidentally, Adewole was a personal friend of TBJ and frequented the Synagogue at a time Chris Oyakhilome and others distanced themselves from TBJ. Now I know that truly God’s people are destroyed because of their lack of knowledge. Hosea 4:6

    • @ Ian,
      I’m not a cessationist and I believe in the spiritual gifts and also that the canon of scripture is closed. However, I don’t subscribe to speculations and traditions of men and to flawed theologies. The standard for prophets in both old and new testaments are the same as in Deut 18:18 and has not changed. Some would like us to believe that the gift of prophesy for NT prophets have been “lowered” and that they can speak half-truths and get away with falsehood and lies and deceit, but they only deceive themselves. What would they say when the two witnesses of the New Testament tribulation appear in the spirit and power of Moses and Elijah ? Rev 11:3-12. Just a thought !

  53. Pingback: SCOAN’s Response to Sky News « TB Joshua Watch

  54. Cautious firstly am not a Scoan disciple or worker am just a lover of the ministry.and very close to it.knowing much about it.how i wish i was one.if i was a disciple i wouldn’t have the opportunity to know a site like this exists.but If you believe you are wasting your time talking to me then no problem. I just want to make something clear. I actually believe the bible when it said all have sinned.and Sometimes we become ruled by the flesh(human nature) but the spirit(divine nature) will always dominate.Even Jesus who we can all confirm had two natures Rom 1:3&4, was at one time ruled by the flesh when He said let this cup pass over me.but his divine nature wouldn’t permit it.hence an angel had to strengthen Him.matt 26:39, luke 22:42 and 43. Let alone Tb joshua.but the gift of the Holy Spirit will always dominate. This should answer your questions. And cautious i was not silenced by the word but by your pointless grounds of making me tell you if Tb joshua sins or not.

    • Very interesting
      You say “if i was a disciple i wouldn’t have the opportunity to know a site like this exists”
      Not – I would not have time, or I would not be interested but “I would not have the opportunity to know”

      • It is an interesting choice of words. Also interesting that the visitor statistics for this site show numerous attempted visits from a corporate network which is blocking it. I can only think of one corporate network that might want to do that….

    • @Doi – mmm find it interesting how you claim you know so much about the ministry yet you don’t claim to be a SCOAN disciple or a SCOAN worker. It is very unusual for an outsider to have been exposed to the teachings of SCOAN that you claim you have been exposed to, if not a worker or a disciple. Perhaps you would like to share more light here? Do you attend SCOAN as a member only or do you claim to have received your inside information from Emmanuel TV.

    • Hi Doi. Although not directly addressing my query to you earlier, I think this does help me understand where you are coming from – essentially those of us baptised in the Holy Spirit have two natures – our human nature and the divine nature coming from the Holy Spirit. Have I got that right? I did have another query also about the meaning of the phrase ‘Man of God’ – does that have a particular meaning beyond my understanding of it as meaning ‘christian’? Thanks

  55. I haven’t commented on this site for a while as some conversations are just going around in circles. Still is, but we have a few new guys on the block and thought I’d quickly chip in.

    First, @Doi, your theology is as dodgy as ever. To clarify to those new to SCOAN. The deception is subtle. I know Doi’s implying that when TBJ works in the spirit he doesn’t sin. SCOAN people believes he is always in the ‘spirit’ (what spirit) and therefore cannot sin. Nice try, Doi, but I’ve read your posts for long enough. (Your reasoning and theology behind Jesus’ human and divine nature is also flawed, but I’ll let someone else tackle that one). So, Doi – you may think you’re off the hook on the question of whether TBJ sins or not, but I think you should still give us a yes or no answer without the usual strange theology. One, short post. Either yes, I think TBJ sins or no, I don’t think he sins.

    Secondly. @Ironclad. You may ‘work in a legal department’ but that does not mean you know more than any of us about UK law. UK law differs a lot from the law in the US which differs widely between states. You cannot possibly tell me that because you ‘work in a legal department’ that you know what the legal position of say Oregon is on rape or the tax law of Florida as much as you can’t say anything about the UK. So your legal credentials are flawed. By the way – what does ‘work in a legal department’ mean? Do you work in admin, IT, research or are you actually a lawyer? Is it criminal or business law?

    Ironclad, I’m not trying to be confrontational, but you do come across a bit ignorant. I was involved in this ministry and know the character of those who are making the allegations against TBJ. There is a true church of Jesus where the Holy Spirit is working, where people are being healed and set free. It happens without any spectacle or television. People serving each other without the left hand knowing what the right is doing. Not this thing where TBJ is handing out cash to peasants on TV.

    You also have no idea about Nigeria, do you? It has been consistently ranked as one of the most corrupt nations on earth. http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2011/results/. What you write in your post regarding Nigeria does not make any sense in light of Nigeria’s corrupt nature or my own personal experience. Also – UK law does not dictate Nigerian law (Nigerian law – an oxymoron if ever there was one!).

    The way that you write so confidently, as an ‘outsider’, about how these allegations cannot possibly be true, shows that your mind is already made up. You most certainly write here with an agenda. That is fine, but please don’t pretend otherwise.

    • Someone Somewhere,

      Perhaps you can enlighten us about British law regarding coercion. Is it a criminal offense?

      I’m not, of course, going to divulge private information about my person. Suffice it to say that I work in an investigative/audit field involving white collar crime.

      • Just as I thought. Making us believe that you somehow have any knowledge in criminal law. I’m not going to speak for British law as I’m no expert at all. I won’t say more other than Clair’s comment below says it all.

      • Hi Ironclad. I don’t know whether there is a law of coercion in England (and please note that like the states of the US, the four separate countries of the UK have different laws). If there is a criminal offence being committed, it is most like to be manslaughter on the grounds of negligence. Please see my earlier comment which lifts from Wikipedia the five grounds for gross negligence in England. I don’t know whether a criminal offence is being committed by encouraging people to stop treatment (either by telling them to or by making them believe that it is wrong to continue) but it certainly is ill advised. (And what is this rubbish about people who come genuinely getting healed and if you’re not it’s because you didn’t come genuinely?).

        SCOAN should be making sure that people are told clearly:

        1. Continue medication until advised otherwise by your doctor
        2. God can heal but for reasons we don’t understand, not everyone who is prayed for is.
        3. If you are not healed this is not about a lack of personal faith or about personal sin – illness in this world is related to the Fall of Adam, not to individual faith or sin.

        I am also intrigued that in some of your earlier comments you don’t appear to consider Sky News a reputable source – in the UK it is, despite its links to Rupert Murdoch!

      • Someone Somewhere, you took your neck out to talk about British law. I thought you might have something to contribute concering the matter as relates coercion. I’m sure it is treated as a criminal offense.

    • Someone Somewhere,

      What ministry are you specifically referring to? The one in London embroiled in the controversy? Does this mean you know of the victims and their families?

      • Someone Somewhere wrote: “We are talking about SCOAN here, aren’t we? I’m not going to repeat myself.”

        Is that south or north of London. And you did not answer the qeustion. Does this mean that you know the victims and their families?

      • Please see TBJ watch’s reply to your cessasionist rant in the latest post. I’ll let that speak for me.

        As to the other question. Read my other posts elsewhere on this site.

    • @ All,
      T B Joshua will do anything to ” project” and to “protect” his name, and we have his agents on this blog trying desperately to do just that. He will not hesitate to dump anyone or ask anyone to “disassociate” from him like Doe is claiming here. Doe has already put TBJ in a bad light by claiming TBJ has both human and divine natures, even though this claim was made at the urging and prodding of TBJ ! If this claim had gone unnoticed, the virus would have spread, just like many other viruses and filth coming from SCOAN. Doe is now a scapegoat, carrying the blame for anything he has said on this blog, so TBJ could look “innocent” and go scot-free. This is typical TBJ tactics of “using and dumping.”

  56. Ironclad, I am going to assume that despite your comment on Anna’s story about the use of aliases meaning that that story is untrue, that Ironclad is an alias. As someone somewhere says, this would not come under English legal jurisdiction. I have already raised a query as to whether encouraging people to stop taking medication would count as manslaughter in England, but to date no English criminal lawyers have responded. However what I can do is publicise Anna’s story in the hope that others will seek medical advice before stopping treatment.

  57. @ Ian,

    Let’s go back to that BBC report again. The report states:

    “AHPN said it believed the Synagogue Church Of All Nations (SCOAN), which has UK headquarters in Southwark, south London, MAY BE one of those involved in such practices.”

    (note the capitals)

    According to the above, they don’t even know if SCOAN is implicated. The mindtry MAY BE involved in the practice. So much for nothing. No wonder none of the leaders have been indicted or investigated by police.

    And about allegations of sex abuse coming from Nigeria, if this is also true, where are the news articles for these also?

    • I could probably find those Nigerian news articles if I spent a while googling, but considering you don’t see BBC articles as credible I see little reason for me to waste my time searching.

      Regarding the BBC article, we can only speculate as to why it was vague, but there are a few things to take into account:
      1) The BBC are a very highly regarded and credible news organisation (have I mentioned that before? 😉 )
      2) Journalists are fiercely protective of their sources
      3) In the reported story the sources refused to go on the record to name the church (something the journalist described as frustrating)
      This scenario leaves the Journalist with an incomplete story. In all probability knowing the name of the church, but the source has not given them permission to say it. To complete the story, they have to get the name into the article some other way, so they get the quote from AHPN.

      Let’s look at this another way – what does it say about SCOAN if a leading african health charity will publicly state that they believe SCOAN are telling people to quit their medication?

      • @ Ian,

        You wrote: “I could probably find those Nigerian news articles if I spent a while googling, but considering you don’t see BBC articles as credible I see little reason for me to waste my time searching.”

        Oh, I don’t mind BBC at all. I never said they were not credible. What I had problems with was the story of the people making the news. It did not add up and was kinda flaky. To their credit, the BBC journalist did write:

        AHPN said it believed the Synagogue Church Of All Nations (SCOAN), which has UK headquarters in Southwark, south London, MAY BE one of those involved in such practices.”

        A good way of not putting yourself in the hook. Pretty slick.

        So don’t let my skepticism of people’s shaky stories stop you from posting relevant news articles. After all, you are compelled to save the world from awful antichrists like TB Joshua.

        In that spirit, where are the articles pointing to SCOAN’s sexual abuse allegations? I’m sure with potential crimes like these, it would not be hard to find a juicy story or two, especially when you have hundreds, if not thousands of people out there who are being robbed and abused by Joshua’s ministry and are out to get him.

  58. And one more thing about the BBC report. The two anonymous accusers don’t even make a connection with SCOAN. They only say that some pastor or some church had told victims not to take medication. This is the classic guilt by association ploy.

      • Someone Somewhere wrote: “Still nothing to say about the undercover report of Sky?</b

        Yeah. I checked right here >>> http://news.sky.com/home/uk-news/article/16117269

        And you know what I found? Not one case of the alleged deaths being connected to the SCOAN ministry.

        The report starts by stating: “At least six people have died in Britain after being told they had been healed of HIV and could stop taking their medication, Sky News has discovered.” But it never goes on to link those deaths to SCOAN. It does so through Guilt by Association, a sneaky way of implicating the church in the deaths of people who have stopped taking medication under unknown conditions. The report mentions that it was due to “various churches” but not once states that SCOAN was one of them.

        The report states that “There is evidence evangelical churches in London, Manchester, Birmingham and Glasgow are claiming to cure HIV through God.” That’s four cities.

        It goes on: “Sky sent three undercover reporters to the Synagogue Church of All Nations (SCOAN), which is based in Southwark, south London.” Take notice. SCOAN is supposedly based in south London.

        However….

        Emmanuel came off his medication a year ago on the instructions of a pastor at his church in north London.” The culprit is now in north London.

        What we may have here is a clear case of a liberal news media with an anti-Christian bent wanting to make a mountain out of a mole hill and score points for its ideology. Great testimonies muct have been coming from SCOAN to rouse the spirit of the antichrist in thatregion.

      • Maybe it is clear to you. To me it actually looks like quite good reporting. Everything I see in the video I can relate to and have experienced first hand. Have you? Can you say that you’ve seen and experienced this? Also see TBJ watch response in the blog above this.

        You can nitpick all you like, but this article is factually true. It might be written by ‘liberal’ media but that does not make it factually incorrect. I actually thought they did a very good job at keeping emotions out of the story.

      • Actually I thought both the BBC and Sky reports were unusual in that they weren’t anti-christian rants – both made clear that the concerns were related to a few churches not all churches and both made clear that there was a role for faith in healing.

  59. @Doi – What you are talking about is Jesus being tempted and then overcoming the temptation through the Spirit. Yes, Jesus never sinned, cause the Spirit always prevailed over the temptation of the flesh. Are you comparing TB Joshua with Jesus here? In other words TB Joshua according to you are also tempted by the flesh, but yet in your opinion overcomes these temptations always through the Spirit. Is that what you are saying? If this is the case then thank you for at last answering my question that you don’t believe that TB Joshua ever commits sin.

    @Doi – “And cautious i was not silenced by the word but by your pointless grounds of making me tell you if Tb joshua sins or not.”

    Haha and this statement you make here is laughable. How many more times do I have to explain to you what the Word says. Don’t you see that the Bible says that If you claim to be without sin, then the Bible says that you deceive yourself and the truth is not in you. (1 John 1:8). Don’t you see that if you believe that TB Joshua never sins then it means that you are making Christ to be a liar by saying that the Scriptures that were inspired by the Holy Spirit is false and you have raised this man to a God which is blasphemy and idolatry in the highest order. Also if you make such claims, the Bible says the truth is not in you, it is not me that is saying it, but the Bible itself.

    What groundless points are you talking about? If these were indeed groundless points, what took you so long to answer yes or no? If it was groundless then you would not have minded to give us a yes or no answer immediately. It is because you realised how much substance is behind it that you took forever to answer this question. Even your admirers pushed you for an answer (msi), cause even msi realised how much substance there is behind this question. Also why is it that SOE never answered it in previous posts, neither any other SCOAN disciples?

    Oh, and when you say you believe the Bible when you say all have sinned, does that mean that you believe that TB Joshua also sinned but perhaps long time ago? I mean it is obvious as stated above that you don’t believe he ever commits sin any more because TB Joshua has now come to that level in your opinion where the Spirit in him always dominates the flesh? Is that right?

    And Doi if you know the ministry so well as you claim you do then you would know that disciples believe TB Joshua never sins, just like you do for the reasons stated. I have never really asked the question here because I did not know the answer to the question, but I am trying to make it fair here, otherwise others would say what kind of proof do I have or are these just my assumptions, hence the reason I want to hear it out of the mouths of SCOAN disciples themselves for eveyone to see that this is not my assumptions, but what they genuinely believe. If this is their belief and your belief you have got serious answering to do, not to me, but to the Word of God. Let the Word of God always prevail and let the Word of God be the final authority.

    • Ironclad, one small point. The SCOAN offices are in South London (just) but it was at one time meeting in Bloomsbury which, although most people would class it as Central London, could legitimately be called “north” (it is near the Euston Rd, which is generally the cut off point)

  60. @Doi – Doi’s words: “If I was a disciple I wouldn’t have the opportunity to know a site like this exists.”

    Doi, what nonsense statement is this? Do you think that SCOAN disciples are not aware of this blog? Haha. Do you think that SCOAN pastors, SCOAN disciples and even SCOAN workers are not aware of the numerous sites like watchprophettbjoshua.com, the exactinfo site and many others that they have erected to drown out some of the negative publicity here? You have even commented on those blogs yourself with many other SCOAN workers and disciples. Who do you think was in charge of erecting these websites? SCOAN supporters? Obviously SCOAN itself. Did you even pay attention while you were typing this statement?

    Also I take note of the moderators comments and Madelaine’s comments on this statement and find it hard to believe that after all your comments here that you are mere someone familiar with the ministry. I will take your word for it for now, not that important anyways.

  61. Cautious take note of my words. The word let alone Tb Joshua. This isn’t a word of comparism or superiority. Am saying Tb Joshua isn’t free.but knows how to run to God to make His wrongs right. Temitope Balogun Joshua is a man like you and i no difference. but the grace of God and gift of the holy spirit makes him different.

    • Doi your words are expressing about TBJ “a man like you and i no difference” but you say that it is “the grace of God and gift of the holy spirit makes him different” I also know how to run to God to make my wrongs right – by the Grace of God. HALLELUJAH. That is what the Christian message is about. Jesus was crucified so that I can run to God. The same for you Doi. It is the crucifixion of the son of God and the resurrection from the Dead of the Son of God and the coming of the Holy spirit that can make us all different. The Grace of God is present in my life, actually it is essential for my life. I hope that it is in yours. Why do you speak about this man as one who is so different?
      And – in an earlier post you said that this man had a divine part and a human part – please could you expand on what you meant in that statement. – thanks.

    • Hi Doi. You say ‘Temitope Balogun Joshua is a man like you and i no difference. but the grace of God and gift of the holy spirit makes him different.’

      You may not have meant it to read this way, but when I read it it looks like you’re saying TB Joshua is different from other people because he has ‘the grace of God and the gift of the holy spirit’ as though other people don’t. Did you mean that? Do you believe that TB Joshua is unique or unusual in being baptised in the Holy Spirit? Are you baptised in the Holy Spirit?

      Also, and sorry to bang on about this, can you give me an answer as to what the phrase ‘Man of God’ means to you. Is it something more than ‘christian’? I’ve asked a couple of times before and I don’t think you’ve answered that one yet.

      Thanks

  62. @Doi – I looked at your words very carefully. Let’s look at your words: -Doi’s words qouted: “Even Jesus who we can all confirm had two natures Rom 1:3&4, was at one time ruled by the flesh when He said let this cup pass over me.but his divine nature wouldn’t permit it.hence an angel had to strengthen Him.matt 26:39, luke 22:42 and 43. Let alone Tb joshua.but the gift of the Holy Spirit will always dominate.

    All this is saying Doi is that just as Jesus was tempted so TB Joshua is tempted also. Temptation and sin is not the same thing as you yourself here states that in Jesus’ case the Holy Spirit always dominated the flesh, hence the reason why Jesus never sinned. You are saying it is the same with TB Joshua that he is tempted, but in your own words above you state that the gift of the Holy Spirit will always dominate, which makes it clear here that you believe that TB Joshua never commits sin. You also deny it being a comparison, but how else am I to understand it. The words let alone can be interpreted as “so also in the same way” as to say in the same way as Jesus was tempted so TB Joshua is also. Is this not a comparison?

    You also mention that TB Joshua is not free. What does that mean? I interpret it as he is not free from temptation which is not the argument, but you never mentioned here that this means that he is not free from sin, in other words sins like all of us (or at least occasionally).

    In the end however you do say that TB Joshua is no different from any of us, but that he knows how to run to God to make his wrongs right. Here it seems as if you say that you believe that TB Joshua does sin, yet above you mentioned that you believe that the Spirit always dominates the flesh in the case of TB Joshua. Huh?

    This is confusing. That is why I asked you for a simple yes or no. Doi, this is not a trick question. You have now turned a simple question into a big time consuming issue.

    As I stated above, in what you are saying there is contradictory statements like explained above.

    Let’s stop the issue here. Don’t even explain why it is contradictory or deny that it is contradictory. In plain simple English just tell me your final answer now for Pete’s sake. Does TB Joshua sin? Yes or No. And again Doi this is not a trick question. I am not trying to make TB Joshua out to be a petty sinner or anything like that at all. I just want to know what your final conclusion is in plain simple English whether he sins at all in your opinion or not as your contradiction does not make it easy for me to know what your believe is in regards to this.

  63. Cautious if i keep talking you’ll get even more confused and we’re only going to make this whole thing continue in circles. Just take my word that says Temitope balogun Joshua is a man like you and i.i’ll end it here. Lets talk about something else that will be of more benefit. As this one wouldn’t change anything about Tb Joshua.

    • @ All,
      Doi is so afraid to say it like it is, that T B Joshua is a common sinner like everyone else !

  64. @Doi – Fair enough but Doi this is of grave concern and at the heart of the matter that disciples don’t acknowledge that TB Joshua sins and this is to raise him to that status of being God and this is blasphemy and idolatry in the highest order.

    I so much wished that many of the things I am concerned about was not true, but unfortunately like you can see they are not even providing any answers to such serious questions or making any efforts to justify such beliefs.

    I will leave it at that. There are many more such concerns, but I am taking a break now also. Have loads of things to do. Haha. Have a lovely evening Doi. Rest well. Will speak again some time. All the best to you. Cautious.

  65. Disciples don’t believe TB joshua dosen’t sin.as Tb Joshua Himself tells them he is a man just like them. How can a man like you be raised to the level of God. Please don’t blasphem here as i don’t think any disciple told you that. Disciples just give Tb Joshua the respect He deserves as a prophet. If he is just like you how did you come to the conclusion He dosen’t sin, meaning you also do not sin and thats Total blasphemy. Hope its more clear. Nice discussing with you.
    -Doi.

    • @Doi- Huh? What are you saying? You are way of now in lala land. What do you mean by “How can a man like me be raised to the level of God” Huh? Doi? Where did you get this from or did you mean that how can a man like TB Joshua be raised to the level of God? This would make more sense if this is what you meant. Blaspheme here? How? What you are saying here is laughable. I am gobsmacked. Where did you get this ridiculous statement from. How can you say that if others belief that TB Joshua does not sin that it means that I don’t sin either? Now because of your own twisted statement that does not make any sense whatsoever you are now suddenly making crazy statments like I am now claiming to be without sin? Huh? How? Crazy reasoning, like I am saying gobsmacked at your reasoning. Is this not what I am fighting here? The issue of claims of being without sin? Oh wow should I give you 1 John 1:8 again. Doi, I am too tired now of this to go and look up a link that points to the comments in the article where hundreds of times people asked the question if TB Joshua sins and dead silence. If this was not a big issue then why didn’t they just say yes or no. If they belief he sins it would only take a second of their time to reply.Mmm it is because they believe he does not sin. Why do you think people that has been in the ministry for several years and served in the ministry as disciples asked this question here? (I am not talking about myself here, I am talking about previously someone else asked this question). Because they know what disciples genuine belief in this regard. Now like I say one should be careful to generalise, but I can assure you that this is the general view under disciples. Doi I have been in the ministry many many years. Ask any disciple if TB Joshua sins and see what response you would get, if any. The question still remains why you took so long to answer this question and why you mentioned that we were making it difficult for you asking this question? Did you change your confession because of 1 John 1:8? Ian’s got the same question above. Doi they had several opportunities to deny that this is true. They haven’t and they wouldn’t, Why is this, if this is not what they believe? If they would come out and deny this and don’t be reluctant to say that TB Joshua sins like all of us, then I will accept it. Others will also be able to confirm this, I am sure. Anyways, tired of this.

      Please don’t make ridiculous statements like this and in the process place words in my mouth. If you read your own statement again you would realise how silly it makes you look, as honestly, how you came to the conclusion that I now claim to be without sin through what I communicated is honestly ludicrous.

    • You say don’t blaspheme, and yet when referring to tbj you capitalise the ‘h’ in ‘He’. You also did so several times in an earlier post when you said joshua is both human and divine.
      Why are you also changing your tone all of a sudden? One characteristic of God and His disciples is consistency in testimony. I ask this same question to all tbj followers; why oh why are we seeing a lot of double standards? Is he equal to God as you have inferred or not?

  66. Pingback: Healing at SCOAN and healing in the bible « TB Joshua Watch

  67. Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter- KEEP EXPOSING TBJ AND RUN FAR, FAR AWAY FROM HIS TEACHINGS! I John 4 verse 1 is relevant. There’s no point arguing with those enamoured with him. I’m a Nigerian in Lagos. This thing about TBJ didn’t begin today. It started over ten years ago when a secular investigative reporter sniffed out what is being exposed. The chap lost his job over his attempt to get beyond TBJ’s waffling(He’s dead now anyway). We pray that more people be pulled out of this cesspool of deception.Chikena! There’s a Kate here. So, I’ll be using an alias

  68. i would never believe anything that comes off the internet. not everyone undertands the working of the spirit. every major minister i know have been labelled false. read the new testament how Jesus rebuked the pharisees bec they never accepted His teaching why would they accept t b joshuas? God bless

  69. Even if there is some truth to any of his claims, it is only truth mixed with error. This is the worst, most dangerous kind (devil in eden). Take for example his anointing wristband; anyone who can show me where in the Bible such a thing is used will be given £1000 by me.
    People will come saying ‘did we not cast out demons in Your Name, do many miracles, prophesy etc’.
    Just because a miracle, prophecy etc works does not mean it is from God.
    I plead with all tbj followers to read the Word in context.

  70. TB JOSHUA is a false prophet! He never teach about repentance, he just come and make his one man show! Flee from this guy before it’s to late for you…

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