Healing at SCOAN and healing in the bible

The recent BBC and Sky news investigations have caused much debate on this site. Whether or not SCOAN do tell people (implicitly or explicitly) to stop medication is an on going debate, though the evidence does not look good. What is more clear is that numerous people who TB Joshua has claimed healed have gone on and died of the condition they were ‘healed’ of.

When we make a claim like this, SCOAN supporters will make such statements as:

“it takes faith to maintain one’s healing/ blessing. Jesus said to the crippled man who was healed in John 5:14, ‘Sin no more or something worse might happen to you’” – SCOAN London disciple, Radicalised


“talking about those that died afterwords.well my question is how did they maintain their miracles?” – SCOAN supporter Doi


“in case you didn’t know- healing is not just to be received but also to be maintained as well” – SCOAN “office worker” Soe

Hang on a minute. Maintain their miracles? Where are they getting this idea from?

What does the bible say about ‘maintaining your miracle’?

“Maintaining your miracle/blessing” is not a phrase found in scripture, but the principle is generally supported by two scriptures. The first one is Luke 17:11-19 where Jesus heals 10 lepers, but only one comes back to praise him. Jesus says to this one leper “Rise and go your way, your faith has made you well/saved you/made you whole (depending on your translation)”. SCOAN supporters have claimed that it was only this one who was actually healed because he came back to praise Jesus (maintained his miracle), however if you read up in any commentary about this verse you’ll see that it’s actually talking about his salvation, not his health (for example: “The others only got the outward cure, he alone got the spiritual blessing.” Matthew Henry). The Samaritan had already been physically healed, as had the other 9 – but he was the one who received spiritual healing, or salvation. The second verse used is John 5:14 as quoted by Radicalised above (the healing of the crippled man) where Jesus tells him to ‘Sin no more or something worse might happen to you’. In this case the command from Jesus had nothing to do with the condition he previously had, he was not saying “sin no more or you may lose your miracle”, in fact the phrasing “something worse” directly implies something different.

The link between faith and healing

The other biblical principle they appeal to is the link between faith and healing – to put it simply, if you don’t have enough faith, you won’t maintain your healing. While there are certainly instances in scripture where people are healed because of their faith (e.g. the blind man or the woman with the issue of blood both in Matt 9), we also read of times people receive healing because of someone else’s faith (e.g. the Centurion for his servant in Matt 8 or the Father and his epileptic son in Matt 17), and it even tells of times where people received healing not because of faith at all, but just the mercy of God (e.g. Peters mother in law in Matt 8 or the few people he healed in Nazereth despite the unbelief in Mark 6:5).

Whenever faith is a factor in a miracle happening, it is required to receive the miracle, not to maintain it. There is not a single instance in scripture of someone losing a healing they had already received through lack of faith or sin. What kind of God does that idea portray anyway? One who heals his people, but then inflicts them again with the disease should they dare to doubt?

Healing or treatment?

In response to the Sky and BBC reports, SCOAN said “Doctors treat, Jesus heals”. They are right to distinguish between treatment and healing, but this teaching of TB Joshua presents his “healing” as just a spiritual form of treatment. Treatment is a process which does require maintaining, as Anna, Judith and the AIDS sufferers found out to their peril. In contrast, the bible shows us that healing is an event (“the fever left her”, “the mute man spoke”, “immediately the leprosy departed from him”, “his servant was healed at that very hour”, “the [paralysed] man got up”, “instantly the man’s feet and ankles became strong”) – if you are healed by Jesus, you return to the state you were in before you had the condition. You don’t need to “maintain” that state any more than you did before you had it!

So if you can get your head round this, they’re offering a treatment which doesn’t appear to be very effective – in place of a treatment which is effective (ARV/Chemo etc) and as a poor counterfeit of divine healing which would be instant and complete. The most toxic aspect to this teaching is it removes any responsibility from TB Joshua. If he claims someone is healed and they die of that condition, the reality is, that declaration of healing was a lie – but this accusation can be avoided by switching it back to them and questioning how they maintained the miracle. This tactic can clearly be seen used by his followers in the quotes at the beginning of this article.
If it is true that TB Joshua brings healing to anyone, it is conditional healing, and that’s even going by the statements of his supporters. True divine healing is complete and final. What we are left with is two options, either TB Joshua is a very skilled and dangerous conman, or, like pharoah’s sorcerers (Exodus 7:10-12), he has impressive  power, but the power of God shows itself to be greater. If you need treatment, go and see a doctor. If you seek healing, go and see Jesus. What TB Joshua provides is a poor counterfeit of both.

“It may be observed that the more excellent anything is, the more will be the counterfeits of it.”
– Jonathan Edwards

This post is continued inMaintaining your miracle, a followup

Note regarding comments: The argument “unless you’re doing greater miracles than TB Joshua, you can’t criticise him!”  has been addressed and responded to numerous times so comments along those lines may not be published in order to keep the focus on the points in the current discussion.

81 thoughts on “Healing at SCOAN and healing in the bible

  1. ‘True divine healing is complete and final. What we are left with is two options, either TB Joshua is a very skilled and dangerous conman, or, like pharoah’s sorcerers (Exodus 7:10-12), he has impressive power, but the power of God shows itself to be greater. If you need treatment, go and see a doctor. If you seek healing, go and see Jesus. What TB Joshua provides is a poor counterfeit of both.’

    Very good summary of everything we have been discussing so far.

  2. Note from the moderator: Visser, the reason you sometimes don’t get your comments published is well illustrated here. You add nothing to the discussion, you just make self serving comments without interacting with the points made at all. The author of this post clearly defined why they believe “maintain your miracle” is unbiblical, if you disagree then tell them why.

    Author of this new post quibbles over word “maintain your miricle”, as he used to do it.

    Such a person has an unhealthy desire to quibble over the meaning of words. This stirs up arguments ending in jealousy, division, slander, and evil suspicions. 1 Timothy 6:4

    From this comes jealousy, division, slander, evil suspicions against TB J.

    • I think that “evil suspicions against TBJ” do not come from a specific use of words but comes from the actions of the man and his followers, and the deadly consequences of those actions. The words just provide the explanations.

    • tangible facts must be gathered and spread them to the world if the allegations are true,i say no comment i m just as nutural as water which does not have taste,if u save the world Jesus will one day reward u but if led the world to the pity of fire one u will be punished,

  3. “It’s not my wish that you perish,but to be there written in the book of life.I know that you are quite aware of the prescription to salvation. Take it whilst you still can.Don’t let your hate for TB Joshua make the people of God to miss heaven.”

    The above comment is taken from the latest in “Is SCOAN a cult?” (Liberty). Like I told her, my salvation depends souly on Jesus, and not TB Joshua.
    TB Joshua has become a Jesus to many, many people.

  4. On peter’s mother in law. Certainly peter had the faith that Jesus could heal her. Despite the fact that the bible never recorded if she had faith or not. That she never said anything does not mean she doubted Jesus’ ability to heal her. Ask peter he’ll tell you the mother in law had greater role to play in maintaining the miracle.
    There’re so many people healed at Scoan not because of their faith but that of the daughter, sister, husband etc. they inturn need to maintain the miracle by playing their role.

    Mark 6:2. He began to teach in the synagogue and MANY (NOT ALL) hearing him were astonished…. Saying is this not the son of Joseph?…….. We Therefore cannot say those healed never believed. And in every congregation there are people who will love you and those who wouldn’t.i think The bible was only saying the few that believed received and the many that had unbelief never received. You guys shouldn’t say they all never believed.

    It’s an undisputable fact that despite the numerous medication given to Hiv patients, hundred/thousands die everyday of the illness.only to put pastors inbetween. Why can’t you recognise the hundred/thousand that were healed and are still healed till this very minute.
    SCOAN came out to let you all know they don’t tell people to quit medication. What else do you need? And am now asking how can a ministry with medical department tell people to stop taking drugs? I know how many times i’ve taken drugs there when i was ill.especially when i never had the opportunity to be prayed for. Personally i don’t believe in this rumors.

    • Hi Doi. You say in your comment:

      ‘There’re so many people healed at Scoan not because of their faith but that of the daughter, sister, husband etc. they inturn need to maintain the miracle by playing their role’

      Can I check – do you believe that a healing has to be maintained? My understanding of what you have said is that for God to heal you, someone (you or another person) has to have faith that God will heal. If God heals you and then you (or the person whose faith led to your healing) stop believing Him, your healing is undone and you are back where you were before God healed you. Is that right?

      Also, can you answer my other question which I’ve asked a couple of times before but not had a reply to – are you baptised in the holy spirit?


    • That she never said anything does not mean she doubted Jesus’ ability to heal her.

      Be that as it may, that’s kind of missing the wood for the trees. The key points in the post (as I see it) you have ignored. Why is it that healing in the bible is instant and complete, but TB Joshua’s healing is “a process” (as the SCOAN evangelist said on the Sky report)? How can you biblicaly defend faith being necessary for “maintaining” a miracle not just receiving it? Doesn’t that make the miracles incomplete? Jesus’ miracles are never incomplete.

      ‘There’re so many people healed at Scoan not because of their faith but that of the daughter, sister, husband etc. they inturn need to maintain the miracle by playing their role’

      Did you even read the whole post? That point of view was torn up in the post and shown to have no biblical backing. You just regurgitate the same thing as if nothing has been said! At least try to refute the biblical case that they made!

  5. those who dont no TBJ can not know him, while am so confortable with whatever any body says about TBJ of SCOAN, wether God or the devil dones not mean much to me personally,because the position of the words of God and World are not the same and there will never be the same. let me take our mind back to the days of our saviour lord Jesus christ when he came the very people who are the preachers in the church were the very people who said is not God niether His work is of God, now He was rejected. The most rejected are the carrer of the truth like TB Josuah, do you know why Jesus was not welcome by His people when he came? is because is a man of miracle and is not a blind man amean his able to see who were, who they are and who they shall be, because no body among them has ever seen any thing asuch they misinterperted JESUS to the devil that they have never seen.
    One thing i keep teling myself every day in my christen believe is that, probabily if i was born before JESUS i would be among those who dault Him and said is not the son of God.
    One thing i know Jesus for is that He has never strugle to gain purplarity among men, i see just the same thing in the life of TB josuah, he dont speak to inpress any body he has no advertisment any where in the world, but those who know who he is come to him, Jesus is not for every body except those who believe in Him, the same manner a pastor, prophet, evaglist and all other noes there are not for all people.
    Just mind your position in the body of jesus, think much how to make heaven rather than everyday thinking of a man who is on his own assiment.read the bible yourself and ask God for understanding.

    • Hello Godday Ameh. You have stated that this man “has no advertisment any where in the world” I would say that he advertises himself widely. I did a little test and briefly looked at the website for the SCOAN UK branch and at the same time looked at the websites of a couple of other large UK Churches. On the SCOAN UK Website there are pictures and quotes of TBJoshua all over the place. On the other sites that I viewed the names of the Leaders appeared on the pages that explained who the leaders were and what they did but thats all. And note that it was Leaders (plural) Try it for yourself to see the difference.
      It looks as if TBJoshua does try to gain popularity among men, I have been told that he readily hands out photos of himself and his followers have them hanging in thier homes.

  6. You want me to quibble with you over word “maintain your miricle”. Apostle Paul did not allow me to do it.

    • I don’t see any quibbling about the phrase “maintain your miracle”. The post just claims that it doesn’t exist (in phrase or concept) in scripture – just like leprechauns don’t exist in scripture. If you dispute this then why don’t you explain why!

  7. @tbjoshuawatch,
    I commend you for writing a very good article on healing and faith that’s both biblical and straight to the point. Divine healing is INSTANT, COMPLETE AND FINAL, accomplished through the hand of the Almighty God, whose name is JEHOVAH RAPHA, the Lord our healer, who heals all our diseases. Exodus 15:26.
    ” Maintaining a miracle” is just one of the many doctrines of demons, being spewed out by T B Joshua and his deluded followers.

  8. Yes Claire i believe healing has to be maintained. Can someone tell me why healing shouldn’t be maintained? Then why do Jesus always advice those He heals to Live holy lives if the healing was final?John 5:14.
    Claire you last question has nothing to do with this post or Tb Joshua. So forget it. or rather you can go back to the post on bamptism. Lets trash this post. I think you guys haven’t answer a lot of my questions. how would a ministry with medical dept, and also treat. Tell people to stop med. It this reasonable? Where in the bible was it stated that maintaing of healing isn’t important? At least we have proof of how maintainance is important.

    • Then why do Jesus always advice those He heals to Live holy lives if the healing was final?

      1) He very rarely advised people that after healing them.
      2) If you’d read the article you would see they addressed John 5:14. It says “something worse”, not “you might loose your miracle”.

      Let me put it a different way to you. Do you have or have you ever had cancer? (If the answer is yes, I’m sorry – replace cancer with a disease you haven’t had). What do you do to maintain your cancer free life? Nothing I presume, you don’t have cancer and never have! If you get healed from cancer, you also don’t have cancer – why would you have to maintain it?

      The fact is, maintaining your miracle is totally unsupported by scripture, the post above makes a very strong case for that. I look forward to you refuting it.

    • Hi Doi

      The reason I asked about whether you are baptised in the holy spirit, although it doesn’t relate to this post, is because I was replying to your comment and as I had asked you twice before and you hadn’t answered thought I would just try again. I note that you have chosen not to answer again and I can’t understand why, when a yes or a no would suffice.

      When it comes to ‘maintaining’ your healing for I couldn’t disagree with you more. When my daughter was healed I had no faith (and nor did she as she was a baby). When we left the hospital the doctors told me that she WOULD be ill again and that she WOULD be back in hospital the following winter (the virus she had permanently damages the lungs so in the winter she would be expected to have breathing problems). I had no faith that she wouldn’t be ill again – the doctors were so certain and my son who had had the same virus as a baby (but not so severely) has suffered each winter. My expectation therefore was that she would be ill again.

      But you know what? Despite my lack of faith in her total healing, she wasn’t ill again. I don’t know who by your reckoning ‘maintained the miracle’ but by my reckoning God healed her immediately and completely, FOREVER. No maintenance required! Praise God!

      When we dedicated her on her first birthday, I could testify to a complete healing pointing to the initial healing and the fact that she had remained well, against what would be expected to happen. Praise God! And she remains well to this day – Praise God! Nothing to do with me or my level of faith, or anybody else.

      God can do this stuff all on his own – he doesn’t need anybody’s help.

  9. So I have a STD and go to SCOAN for healing but afterwards can still freely sleep around… I have lung disease and go to SCOAN for healing but afterwards can go on smoking to my hearts content… I have stress-related migraines and go to SCOAN for healing but afterwards continue to work my socks off and get stressed… According to this post, you would blame that on T.B. Joshua. What happened to Galatians 6:7 – “Whatsoever a man sows, that he shall reap.” ???

    • If you had lung disease, were told by SCOAN you were healed of it (and doctors confirmed your lungs had returned to the healthy state they were in before the disease) and then you continued to smoke to your hearts content and got lung disease AGAIN, then of course it would be your fault and not SCOAN’s.

      Ditto for STDs. If TBJ proclaimed you healed you of chlamydia and this was medically confirmed, and then a week later you went and got gonorrhea from someone else, then this would be a clear illustration of Galatians 6.7.

      If you had HIV, were told by SCOAN that you were healed, you stopped taking your ARV meds and then slept with someone shortly afterwards and THEY contracted it, then it is definitely SCOAN’s fault, both your deterioration and your partners contraction of the disease. Not because SCOAN are responsible for your behaviour, but because SCOAN falsely told you that you were healed when you weren’t.

      Just Asking, people are routinely proclaimed healed in SCOAN. This is the problem. The disciple in the Sky news report told an AIDS sufferer that ‘all people who receive prayer for HIV-AIDS at SCOAN are healed’. Do you think it is right that people are told this?

    • This is a subtle twisting of the issue. What you are talking about is maintaining your health, not maintaining your healing. If you were to relate this to the crippled man Jesus healed in John 5, you’d be saying “if that man jumped off the roof of a building and broke his back, would that be Jesus’ fault?”. Of course not! Healing does not make you invincible oto that particular condition, but it does mean you’ve been healed of it!

      The issue at hand is the teaching from SCOAN that says that healing is just a process, you are proclaimed healed, but then you have to maintain that healing through faith and righteous living, otherwise you might lose it. That concept is totally foreign to scripture. Of course faith and righteous living is important, but if you are healed, you are healed period!

  10. @ Ian.’The fact is maintaining your miracle is unsupported by scripture’
    now lets talk about maintianance before moving to something worse.

    isn’t this a maintianance warning? In other words maintain you miracle by living a holy life or you’ll loose it for something worse. What other explanation do you require? you wanted them to continue in their sinful lives and expect the healing to remain? NO!.
    John 8:11. ‘No one sir, she said.then neither do i condem you. Jesus decleared GO AND SIN NO MORE’.
    JESUS is simply telling this aldultrous woman to stop her sinful life in other to maintain her freedom.
    Maintaining of healing/blessing/deliverance etc. Are essential. If you dispute that then tell me your scriptural backing.

    • If you dispute that then tell me your scriptural backing.

      This is a standard method of SCOAN supporters, I remember Soe using the same technique. The method is: Take a SCOAN teaching which is found nowhere in the bible and is totally foreign to historic christianity, then tell critics they can’t question it unless they can prove biblically why this teaching is false. With respect, the burden of proof lies with those supporting the new and questionable teaching (although the original article did a perfectly good job of refuting it biblically).

      Note – nobody is saying that faith and morality aren’t important. Nobody is saying that our lifestyle doesn’t affect our health, even having been healed. What we’re saying is that healing according to the bible is complete! If you’re disagreeing with us on that I’m assuming you’re saying Jesus’ healings are incomplete?

      • the technique is called passing the burden of proof.
        An example of this (un scoan-related) is used by scientists in the old evolution/creation debate. The Oost Cloud, which goes some way into arguing there is no God. Thing is, its never been seen or observed and exists only on paper.
        When creationsists say “prove this actually exists”, they then say, “prove it doesnt”…
        The same happens wih scoan and their crazy doctrine.

    • The account in John Ch 8 about the woman who was caught in the act of adultery and within the law of the time should be stoned demonstrates the radical and world changing way that Jesus operated. Jesus, was without sin and therefore by his own statement could have thrown the first stone. This Jesus said that he did not condemn her. HOW INCREDIBLE. After declaring that he did not condemn her asked her to leave her life of sin. My own assumption about this is that the woman did change but not out of fear of losing anything but because she had encountered the person of Jesus and experienced the absolute and unconditional love of Jesus.
      You are saying that this account is an example that by our actions we could lose the blessing that we have already received from Jesus. Even if this woman did not leave her life of sin, then nothing and no-one could ever take away the moment that Jesus stood before her and said “neither do I condemn you” because according to the bible that is what happened. It cannot then un-happen.
      Surely the cross of Jesus means that we do not lose the forgiveness and love and miraculous power. Surely when Jesus said “IT IS FINISHED” what he meant was “IT IS FINISHED” Of course we who are sinful human beings need to regularly return to the cross and confess our sins, and receive the forgiveness and grace that is available and of course it is part of our Christian journey to work within the love and grace of God and not return to lifestyles that can be harmful, but the grace of God is not conditional.
      This has turned into a longer answer than I intended but as I have thought more about this doctrine of “maintaining miracles” it seems to me that it undermines the very nature of the whole Christian gospel. That it is by GRACE that we are saved and not works. That Jesus DIED on the cross for us. He gave up his life so that we can have life. He did not die a little bit so that we could be healed a little bit but with the risk of losing it. .

      • @mr terrific.you said “if you need healing go to jesus.” if i may ask,now that he is no longer visible in our midst how do we go to him? Does it really mean that his presence cannot be felt,just because he is no longer visible in our misdt? Does it means that jesus cannot use suitable men?,men that could be vessels unto honor?men that could be instrument of praise?does it mean that jesus cannot use the faculties of men? Wel! Wel!! I Leaves these questions for my opponent to answer.

  11. @ just asking. +1. Thats what they want people do. Telling them to go back to the cause of their problem. Then when it returns blame Scoan. This is their insinuation for telling the world ‘miracles are instant and final.and maintaining a miracle is just one of the many doctrins of demon’.

  12. There is a difference between miracle and healing. Miracle happend instantly. Miracle does not need to maintain. Healing needs to maintain. Why ? Healing can take time. Jesus ministry was full of miracles. Healing takes time to recover and satan is fighting against faith and healing always.It is why people very often without strong faith are loosing their healing. Healing needs to maintain means a person needs to stay with belivers to grow in faith and knowledge of the word of God to maintain healing to become stronger in faith than before. It is why people are to ask to stay in SCOAN longer. Aaaaa?

    • Hi Visser. Very intrigued abou this. You are saying that God’s healing is not a miracle? So you have a condition that cannot be healed by medical means, it is not humanly possible – God heals you and that is not a miracle???? If that’s not a miracle, then what is?

  13. To another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, to another miraculous powers, 1 Cor.12.9-10.

    Healing is not the same as miracle. Healing takes time and needs to maintain faith. Miracle is instantly does not need to maintain. Satan fights against healing. Against miracle he can not do anything because all can see it in realm. When you understand this you will put away your guns against TB Joshua or any other healing ministry on this earth. Read my previous answer above as well.

    • I don’t think anyone on here would dispute there can be/is a difference between healing and miracles. But it is important to note that all healings are miraculous in nature, but not all miracles are healings, i.e. Jesus healing a blind man is miraculous, but Jesus telling Peter to find a coin in the mouth of the fish is a miracle – not a healing.

      Visser said:
      “1. Healing takes time and needs to maintain faith.
      2. Miracle is instantly does not need to maintain.
      3. Satan fights against healing. Against miracle he can not do anything because all can see it in realm.
      4. or any other healing ministry on this earth.”

      These 4 statements are rather bizarre – theologically speaking. Can you please back each statement up with verses or are they your own opinions?

      Note on point 4. I thought that only Jesus heals? Are you saying that Kundalini, for example, is ok?

    • Hi Visser, thanks for adding something to the conversation, it is interesting the distinction you make. My contention with your argument is the same as SomeoneSomewhere – aren’t all the healings shown in the bible miracles? Can you show a healing in the bible where it wasn’t miraculous? Aren’t you talking about treatment rather than healing like the original article distinguished between?

  14. Even if tb joshua is a prophet of satan what is your buisness you just creat a blog to start criticising a man of GOD.Who her you to condem any one.. BE CAREfUL.

    • Jesus warned there would be false prophets and wolves in sheeps clothing, and that the church should use discernment.

      Albert says, Who are you to condemn anyone…BE CAREFUL.

      Albert, if ever I do decide to start my own cult, I will be sure to get you on my side 😉

      • gilse you said you her a christain an you her talken of createn an occultic group..may God forgive you.

  15. “Jesus telling Peter to find a coin in the mouth of the fish is a miracle – not a healing”

    Fish had eaten coin first, Jesus words about coin in the mouth of fish were divine knowledge, it was not miracle.

    “These 4 statements are rather bizarre – theologically speaking”

    Hehehe. You are to fast to judge my words. Try to understand first before you judge anything.

    Kundalini healings works by entering demon to a body to control sicness. Do you really have experience in healing or you are just talking?


    • @ Visser.
      “Fish had eaten coin first, Jesus words about coin in the mouth of fish were divine knowledge, it was not miracle”. Being pedantic I would argue it is both a miracle and a word of knowledge. If that example doesn’t suffice – please use Jesus feeding the multitude.

      “Hehehe. You are to fast to judge my words. Try to understand first before you judge anything.” I’m not judging anything, hence the questions. I do understand, but you don’t seem to have any Scriptural backing for your 4 statements so I would just assume it is your opinion, ok?

      “Kundalini healings works by entering demon to a body to control sicness. ” What is your prove that this is not happening in SCOAN?

      “Do you really have experience in healing or you are just talking?” Actually I do. I’ve known many people who got healed where they stood during church services without the theatrics of SCOAN. They would testify about it later, but there would be no focus on the pastor ‘performing the miracles’.

  16. Ian. Healing blind man by Jesus was a miracle. Healing leper who went back was healing in Jesus ministry. TBJ once prayed for a man and small girl with broken leg bones. They walked after 3 minutes. It was a miracle. You people control yourself with judging. First let us discuss and left you judging with shut up. Collect first good arguments.

    • Healing leper who went back was healing in Jesus ministry.

      So were the other 9 lepers, not just the one who came back. You may be able to drag up examples of TB Joshua performing miracles, but you can’t give any examples of healings in the bible which were not instant or where people lost their healing afterwards – because there aren’t any!

      • Visser – okay, I did exactly that – Luke17, v11-19. Two things about the story struck me –
        1. All ten has faith that Jesus could heal them, and all ten were healed of their leprosy.
        2. The one who came back did so to give thanks, not because he had more faith then the others.

        From your comment – what does “only clean from leprosy” mean? To a leper, it means exactly that “his body was restored” – how do you conclude these as different states?

  17. @ Visser

    “TBJ once prayed for a man and small girl with broken leg bones. They walked after 3 minutes. It was a miracle.”

    Did you see the X Ray or documents of a Surgeon dated as the day before or on that day and their names on it ? Visser. If so, send a copy to this website email for investigation. Since you lot document and video all things, this is not a big deal, I guess ?

    Now you can prove that it is true. But I think rather this ” miraculous healing” took about 6-8 weeks first and then came to the church and the legs were so to speak broken with X Ray and/or documents and healed within 3 minutes and walking. Hmmm.

    Now is your chance Visser to prove it. So bring it on. I ain’t falling for your writing down here and claiming things, that I want now to see proof of.

    Again I will fall back on the quotable words coming from SCOAN, “People need to see proof before they can accept…..” etc. etc.

    Oh can I invite T. B. Joshua to pray and come over to:

    “http//equipindia.org/” (Put colon after http) to do the same over there in three minutes.

  18. Nenardi. I can not give you X-ray pictures. I am not living in Lagos and I am not a member of SCOAN. You should ask someone that writes here and is from SCOAN Lagos. I have only two films that show miracle of broken legs of small girl and young man in SCOAN. They walked after about 5 minutes. Bones that where broken in medical terms: tibia, shinbone. Legs had to be cut, but God did miracle by TBJ.

  19. Gah! I can barely believe the extent of this discussion! Surely when Christ says ‘you’re healed, now stop sinning or else’ (paraphrase!), the healing of the physical is complete and the instruction/suggestion relates to spiritual salvation. It’s not that subtle, is it?
    e.g. when Jesus heals the man on the mat and forgave him his sins. It’s a juxtaposition He often uses.

  20. @ All,

    I want to add to the former post some comments regarding Kundalini:

    Symptomatology of Kundalini Arousal/Syndrome and Application.

    Researchers affiliated with the fields of transpersonal psychology and near-death studies have suggested some common criteria that describe this condition, of which the most prominent feature is a feeling of energy or heat rushing up the spine.

    The same things you can see happening in the SCOAN.

    – prominent feature is a feeling of energy or heat rushing up the spine.
    – Other symptoms, Check
    – Category Symptoms, Check
    – Sensory and motor symptoms the feeling of cranial pressures, Check
    – the perception of inner sounds, Check
    – experiences of inner lights, Check
    – vibrating or tickling sensations in the lower back and over the body, Check
    – Tachycardia (rapid heart rate), Check
    – changes in breathing, Check
    – spontaneous bodily movements or Kryas, Check
    – sensations of heat or cold moving through the body, Check
    – localized bodily pain that starts and stops abruptly, Check
    – vibrations and itching under the skin, Big check
    – unusual, or intense, sexual sensations, Check
    – Mental and affective symptoms, Check
    – Fear, Check
    – Anxiety, Check
    – High pitched screaming, Check
    – depersonalization, BIG CHECK !
    – intense positive or negative emotions, Check
    – spontaneous slowing or speeding of thoughts, Check
    – spontaneous trance states, Big Check
    – experiencing oneself as larger than the physical body
    – experiences of paranormal consciousness, Check

    All this mentioned above is clearly visible by the naked eye, but for those who have experienced this themselves this is so as well spiritually discerned.

    If you compare this to the biblical accounts what is written, we see some similarities but mainly this is Vibrations, Shaking, Short Depersonalization, Vomitting and Rolling during deliverance when Jesus ministers to people. Exorcising at sunset: Matthew 8:16-17, Mark 1:32-34 Luke 4:40-41, Gerasenes demonic: Matthew 8:28-34, Mark 5:1-20, Luke 8:26-39, Boy possessed by a demon: Matthew 17:14-21, Mark 9:14-29, Luke 9:37-49

    There are no other manifestations like this in healing(s) (gifts of healings), the miraculous, the prophetic, world of knowledge, speaking in tongues, interpretation of tongues or any other application when the Holy Spirit ministers. No falling, rolling, itching or vomitting either. Yet still we see this mainly demonstrated on the videos of SCOAN as if most of the people are demonized or possessed. Also there are those that have been delivered before AND declared free and are back in the prayer line again and again. Strange is it not ? When Jesus sets you free He has set you free and your “house” He will set in order. Spiritually, Mentally, Physically. Some people go over and over again and keep having “demons”. ??????? I am saying that when you are “cleared” out, you need to start working yourself on matters that you don’t get messed up again. How come they are ?

  21. I would like to thank you all of you. It was my last post on this blog. I am not going to write anymore here. It is simply wasting my time to write here.

  22. Yes Visser i feel your pain. This whole thing seems to be going in circles. No one sees the truth.not even the moderators. But wouldn’t you consider neutral people? Who do not even coment, but are seeking the truth? I really want you to take note of the new coments from neutral people who are new to Tb Joshua watch.they see the truth. And love Tb Joshua more. Can you consider this?

    • 1) This debate is about the SCOAN teaching about the miracles of Jesus so why is it necessary to mention loving TBJ?
      2) If a commenter “love TBJ more” they are not neutral.
      3) And yes this is going round in circles but that is because it is a free debate where people can express their beliefs.

  23. The author who posted this article has done a very good job not only in exposing this false idea behind the “maintaining your healing” conjecture championed by SCOAN, but has also scriptural defended his argument. I see the likes of Visser just arguing out of sentiments and manufactured conjecture. As the author pointed out, one thing that really makes this fabrications toxic is that it completely removes all responsibility from TB Joshua’s/SCOAN’S claims-because each time they proclaim a person healed and it was later genuinely investigated and found that such a person was not truly healed, all TB Joshua and his ardent supporters need to say is: “well it is likely the person did not do the right things to maintain his healing”. This way, they can always be exonerated by such excuses. I find such tactics an contrivances loathsome and disingenuous.

  24. Yes Doi, I do not want to waist my time among some stiff-necked people, with uncircumcised heart, Not all of course, some of them here are obstinate; they refuse to believe and publicly maligned the truth in the circle. Talking with some of them would take eternity in vain. It is time for my radical move like Apostle Paul did in Ephesus, because in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing all the time and following their own evil desires.

  25. @claire.
    You always refer to the faith you never had. But i think i doubt you never had faith. Peharps you’re exercising it without knowing.
    1.For making the discision to take your child out of the hospital walls when you knew the implications.and were told by the doctor the illness will be back by winter. But you believed it wouldn’t be. Thats faith.
    2.coming here to testify when you know she could still be ill.shows the extent of your belief. So you believed but never noticed.

    Something i’ll like to understand from everyone.
    Is it possible to maintain once miracle/healing etc? Yes or no?
    I have given the biblical proofs why i believe its important to maintain it. So do not tell me its unscriptural. if you disagree lets have yours.
    According to the watch Tb joshua site, which we are all familiar with, A friend gives you a new car as christmas present. Aren’t you going to fuel the car? And give the necessary maintianance? This should be a good description to our miracle.

    • Doi, I read that post and thought it was a weak example. God’s healing isn’t like an earthly gift! I think a more relevant question is if a friend gave you a gift for Christmas, would you expect that same friend to take it away again? No! In the same way, God does not take away his healing from us.

    • I have given the biblical proofs why i believe its important to maintain it.

      You have?! All I’ve seen from you (and that article on the other site) is biblical support for faith and righteous living generally, which nobody is disputing! You’ve not given a shred of biblical support for your belief that God revokes miracles or gifts he’s already given if you don’t behave. Secondly, I’ve not seen anyone address the fact that healings in scripture are instantaneous, where as healings at SCOAN are “The start of a process”.

      As for asking us for biblical support for our view, like I’ve said before – they burden of proof is with you. You are the one who has the unusual belief, you tell us your biblical support for that!

    • Hi Doi. I don’t really follow your logic. If I don’t know I have the faith, can i be said to have faith? I’ve always thought that faith was a conscious act. But does that also mean that if you think you have faith for healing and don’t get better that despite your conscious acts of faith (refusing medication) you might not really have faith? I’m confused!!!! I’ve always thought that healing was simple – you pray (or someone else does on your behalf) and you either get better (you’ve been healed) or you don’t (so you’re not healed).

      The way that healing is presented by SCOAN seems to be that you pray, you’re always healed but if you don’t get better it means you don’t have enough faith. And if you’re not better, in my book that means you’re not healed. This makes it sound as though God can’t heal you if you don’t have faith, but the God I believe in is bigger than that! He can cope with my frailties, lack of faith, doubts etc!

      The only other construct I can put on this concept of maintaining your healing is that it is a way of saying ‘our prayers always lead to healing, if you don’t get better that’s your fault’. That doesn’t sound Christ-like to me.

      I’m sorry Doi, on this one we’re going to have to disagree. I believe in immediate, forever healings – like the examples in the bible of the lepers, the blind man, the paralysed man, Lazarus, the centurion’s daughter etc I don’t believe in maintaining the healing, I don’t agree with your interpretation of scripture – God heals you, you get better, you are well.

    • Re: the ‘Car Maintenance’ metaphor…

      Surely healing should be equated to a Service & MOT, rather then a gift of a car (God has already given us a body at our birth).

      So my car needs a new exhaust pipe to pass it’s MOT, I leave it with the garage for the day & trust that they will fix it up (Faith). I turn up later on, pay them (Act of Faith) and the car spits out smoke for half a mile before conking out entirely on the way home.

      Perhaps the mechanic should’ve told me that he’d not actually fixed the thing before charging me & sending me on my way, but it’s probably more my fault for not changng the oil more regularly.

  26. @ Albert,

    And what do you think I will see ?

    Do you really think there is any difference of what I have seen before and this is without being proud of it in the meetings of:

    Mike Bickle, Bill Hybels, Chuck Pierce, Rick Joyner, Bob Jones, Peter Wagner, Benny Hinn, T.D. Jakes,, Marilyn Hickey, R.W. Shambach, Carlton Pearson, John Avanzinni, Kenneth & Gloria Copeland, John Hagee, Jessie Duplantis, Roberts Liardon, Oral Roberts, Richard Roberts, Creflo Dollar, Rodney Howard Browne, Jack Van Impe, Reinhard Bonnke, Joyce Meyer, Morris Cerullo,Hal Lindsey, Charles Capps, Nicholas Duncan Williams, Robert Tilton, Juanita Bynum, Peter Youngren, Mike Murdock, Ayo Oritsiyafor, David Oyedepo, John Wimber, Derek Prince, Enoch Adeboye, John Arnott, Peter Popoff, Don Steward, Leigh Valentine, Casey Treat, Ron Cox, Rick Warren, Jessy Dixon, Tayo Adeyemi, RT Kendall, Gerald Coates, Roger Forster, Dave Tomlinson, Colin Urquhart, Johan Maasbach, Johan Proost, Matthew Ashimolowo, Benjamin Mensah, and many, many more.

    I have been in their meetings, churches, sit at their office desks, looked eye to eye with them, prayed with them, they prayed over me, etc etc. And you want me to come and see T. B. Joshua that does exactly the same except the charity which is commendable of what I have seen so far.

    For the rest it is all the same, fall down, screaming, vomitting, claim miracles, claim healings, claim all kinds of matters and so forth.

    YET, Yet when it came to people that needed healing that I brought in and others, all of sudden it was not working. And these people were truly sick and came with big expectation and definitely with faith in their hearts that God would heal them and deliver them and more. Only to walk away from it not healed or delivered….. and this was all done in the name of Jesus.

    Sorry, I have not able to witness any solution or difference of the above mentioned problems that I wrote in a former post up here to be happening. All of sudden Jesus just “passed” by and could not heal them. I guess it is all in most of your head. I am not denying any power that Jesus Christ can do, but from what I have experienced it has only been a disaster.

    Frankly I have enough of all these claims and the like. I have been around, I have witnessed it and I have seen it fail and fail time after time and the lies that come with it. What I have witnessed is extracting money and abuse from people and used for all kinds of insane things these ministers do and for me personally I hope and pray that God will let them fall after the order of Goliath one day and uproot them from their vile ministries they do.

    So there you go Albert, I am not a novice in this field, I have been around for over 23 years in these groups and frankly it has been mostly all disappointing of the expectations that I had and for others in there even though I knew that those who came were expecting it from Jesus and not from them. But they were the one’s that claimed it all happened in the Name of Jesus Christ.

    • @Nanardi i agreed with every thing that you say , even the bible says that many her call few her choosen.. So you can not say that becos you have gone to the churches of this men of God as you clam to have go which you listed an then you can concluded
      that tb joshua is
      the same as them may not be right as you thinck.. So Nanardi a will still advice you to go to tb joshua church yourself an see
      things with your eyes befor you conclued. I have seen so many people who talk like the way you her talking now but when they came to scoan, they now latter find out the trueth about tb joshua ministry.

  27. Kate. Point of correction. God does not take our miracle back. When we do not maintain it we only give opportunity to the devil to afflict us with thesame illness or even greater ones. And then God’s grace may not cover us. The same applies the friend may not take back the car but when you do not maintain it and it gets breakdown.certainly that your friend wouldn’t assist you again cos of your lack of maintainance. Try to get the simple logic. Am still waiting for anyone to prove biblically that maintainance of miracle isn’t important. If no proof then its very important that we maintain them.you guys are only bringing false doctrins.

    • Doi – is this your experience of Christian life? – that you come to the Cross of Jesus and receive the miracle of forgiveness and then when you (as we all do) sin again you find that Jesus “wouldn’t assist you again”

    • Thanks for explaining the simple logic to me – how about this simple logic? How colme the people who are healed never stop being ill? You said the devil reinfects them, I say it’s not re-infection, it’s the SAME illness. They just haven’t been healed at all. You say they become ill again because they doubt their healing. Wrong way round. They start to doubt their healing BECAUSE they still have all the symptoms of being ill. A healthy person doesn’t need to doubt their healing because they feel healed. A person who feels like they’re dying will start to doubt. Simple enough for you?
      I still don’t understand your biblical basis for this teaching – it seens tenous at best. I’ve been a Christian for 20 years and have never heard any teaching even slightly similar to this. Which leads me to believe it’s been made up as a cover for TBJ’s failed healings and then spoonfed to his loyal followers.

  28. @ tbjoshuawatch
    I was contemplating responding to your weak excuse for not publishing my post. You stated that my arguments have been raised before and refuted.
    You cannot debate or refute the Word of God. God says, heaven and earth will pass away but His Word will remain forever. You cannot change Gods Word that says you must not slander or judge your brother into something else to suit your smear campaign.
    I would like to highlight a few things. Please watch these 2 short youtube clips regarding 2 people TB Joshua prayed for.

    Please note in both clips in who’s name TB Joshua prays for these people. He makes it very clear that it is the name of Jesus.(not in his own name or strength). Please also note that these 2 people don’t have invisible ailments, they both have visible forms of paralysis. The cripple man has an incomplete lesion, thus he still has motor and sensor abilities below the level of his injury. If you look at the shape of his feet you can see his toes and parts of his feet and legs are paralyzed. The shape of his feet is called ‘drop feet’ as he can’t move his toes. The toes and bridge of his feet start bending downwards as a result of motor loss. If you don’t understand this ask a Neurosurgeon.
    The woman in the 2nd video is a Quadriplegic and has an injury to her cervical vertebrae. You can see it as all 4 her limbs are affected and by the condition of her hands. The tendons in her fingers have shortened and she has a percentage of motor and sensory loss in her arms and hands that is why her fingers and hands are atrophied. (You cannot act this)
    There is no known human cure for paralysis. It is only an act of God in the name of His son Jesus that could instantly heal them.
    After you have watched these 2 videos please read the scriptures below.
    Luke 9:
    49 John answered and said, “Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name; and we tried to prevent him because he does not follow along with us.” 50 But Jesus said to him, “Do not hinder him; for he who is not against you is for you.”
    Matthew 7:
    15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
    TB Joshua ministry started in 1989 and has grown from a handful of people to an international ministry feeding and helping the helpless, disabled, financing less fortunate people to study, helping strangers, orphans, the sick, dwarfs and widows. “Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.”
    TB Joshua can’t be held responsible for every person in his ministry. Each person will have to give an account for his own life before God. People use Christianity and the church for their own gain and when caught out try and blame TB Joshua.
    If TB Joshua’s ministry did not yield good fruit it would not have grown but would have been cut down and thrown in the fire. Over 20 years, the ministry has grown and bore good fruit.
    In life pain and age brings wisdom and understanding. When you are young you think you know everything just to find out when you are older you actually know nothing.

    • Hi Concerned

      You cannot debate or refute the Word of God

      No you can’t, but you can debate and refute individuals interpretation of God’s word. As one pastor once put it “All scripture is authoritative and infallible, but not all my interpretations of it are”. If only TB Joshua and his followers had the same humility. By the way, you can’t call the content on this site slanderous unless you can prove that it is false.

      Regarding those videos, I’ve not watched them – but nothing they show could validate TB Joshua’s ministry. So he performs signs and wonders in Jesus’ name? So did the lawless ones in Matthew 7 who Jesus sent away from him. By implication so does the servants of satan disguised as “Angels of Light” in 2 Corinthians 11 (it may not say it, but they’re not very well disguised if they are doing things in the name of satan! Think about it).

      The fruit issue has come up time and time again too. Fruit takes a long time to be produced. You can’t assess fruit based on a quick video or on hearsay (propagated by the ministry itself!). The long term fruit of SCOAN I have seen first hand is several people dead (having been pronounced healed), a previously thriving church fail, a marriage broken, a woman sexually abused and a loving family split apart. By the fruit you shall know them indeed.

      Finally, the argument that if he was not of God he would have failed long ago is nonsense, unless of course you accept Islam (according to some statistics, faster growing than Christianity) as also being of God.

      • @ giles your respond to concern what the moderator did was not right.why i thinke concern gave that reason may be becose you people have not delibrate on it to is sactisfaction or he/she may not have know welther you people have delibrate on it befor.

  29. @ian the way you talk sometime make me to dapte if you her a christain. I look at you like some one that even if God come today and tell you good things about t.b joshua is you will not belive…i pray for God to open your eyes and many other to the trueth about the man of GOD T.b

    • Interesting how TB Joshua supporters are regularly suggesting that his critics aren’t Christians. Is it necessary to believe in TB Joshua to be a Christian Albert? If so, then I guess I’m not a believer.

      • @ian i did not say you her not a christain what i mean is that the way you insult tbj and is ministry dose not have a christainic nature..that is why i said i dapt if you her a christian.As a christain you her not suppose to insult an criticise anyone inculding sinners you are only encourage
        to pray.then you alowe God to interven in their lives. Since you people do not belive in tbj ministry why can you people pray for God’s intervent?

      • I don’t think the bible tells us we aren’t to ever critisise anyone!

        Since you people do not belive in tbj ministry why can you people pray for God’s intervent?

        How do you know we don’t? I pray for people I know within SCOAN nearly every day. I also know several people who organise regular prayer meetings for the same purpose.

      • @ian.it is good that you pray but why can you wait for God to interven than criticising tbj do you thinck God will interven seens you her now taken the battle as your’s eccpet you her telling me that the gods you serve do not answer prayers.

      • God calls us to action, not just to prayer. James 2:15-16 is one example of this. If you see injustice (which I do at SCOAN), you are right to pray about it, but if there is anyway you can confront it too, you should do. There are numerous examples in the bible of false teachers being confronted.

      • @ian Pleace my drealy belove do not misquote the bible oh just because you want to defend yourself when you already know you her rough. Jame 2:15-16 have noting to do with taken action to criticise some one.Hebrews12:14-15.say we should follow peace with all men including your enemys.pleace i will advice you to go and pray for your self for misinterpreting the bible for God’s forgiveness.I love you be blessed.

  30. Pingback: Maintaining your miracle, a followup « TB Joshua Watch

  31. @someone somewhere.you talk about pharoahs sorcerers,did you not read the part of the same bible that moses staff which turned to snake swallowed that of pharoahs sorcerers?because God wanted to show them that he stands supreme above all this should tell you that if tbjoshua is not genuine like pharoahs sorcerers as you equate him to be, he will be swallowed up by his adversaries and the likes of you(critics).but pretty word you said, “he has impresive powers”. Powers that are not just impressive but retain their lasting values as they cannot be swallowed up.

    • you said, “he has impresive powers”. Powers that are not just impressive but retain their lasting values as they cannot be swallowed up.

      I think that was exactly their point, Jesus’ healings are instant and last which is superior to TB Joshua’s which are just the start of a process which needs maintaining. I’ve still not seen anyone give a biblical example of a healing which wasn’t instant or didn’t last.

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