Maintaining your miracle, a followup

Healing at SCOAN

The previous post compared the healings of Jesus with the healings of TB Joshua and concluded that because TB Joshua’s miracles are incomplete (start of a process) and require “maintaining”, they do not qualify as biblical healing. Because of this, we concluded that:

“either TB Joshua is a very skilled and dangerous conman, or, like pharoah’s sorcerers (Exodus 7:10-12), he has impressive  power, but the power of God shows itself to be greater”

This is an extremely important point for his supporters to refute, because the miracles are TB Joshua’s main attraction, and his supporters main defense of him. Whenever you bring up the sexual abuse allegations, the highly questionable teachings or the cult like behaviour at SCOAN, his supporters immediately respond by questioning how these accusations could hold any weight against a man who is responsible for healing/delivering/restoring so many people in the name of Jesus? (aside: as we’ve mentioned before, him healing “in the name of Jesus” is not in itself validation of his ministry). If his supporters were able to clearly show that he was responsible for a significant number of bonafide, validated healings which could be shown to be equivalent to those found in scripture, we detractors would be forced to reconsider our position.

So far however, we’ve been given no reason at all to rethink. In fact, every single one of their responses has committed one of these 3 basic logical fallacies:

Red herrings

A Red herring diverts attention away from the major issues to a minor, disputable issue. Doi started off like this by questioning our claim that some healing miracles in the bible were performed without the need for any faith, but just because of the mercy of God. We stand by our original statement, but either view would require an argument from silence, so there’s no point labouring it. The important thing is, even if you concede this one point, absolutely nothing is lost from the issues raised.

Straw men

The straw man argument works by twisting the opponents words to produce a “superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition” (Wikipedia link) which can then be easily refuted without actually refuting the original position. “Just asking” is one example of this “So I have a STD and go to SCOAN for healing but afterwards can still freely sleep around… I have lung disease and go to SCOAN for healing but afterwards can go on smoking to my hearts content… “ [link] No! That’s not what we’re saying! (More on that later) We were also provided plenty of verses showing the importance of faith and righteous living – again, we totally affirm that!

Ad Hominem

The final rhetorical device they used (especially on their own blog) is the Ad Hominem fallacy. In other words, attacking the character of the critics rather than the issues themselves. To paraphrase: “They’re all pharisees, the pharisees were wrong, therefore they are wrong!”. Even if they think they have biblical evidence that we are pharisees, this is an incredibly lazy, not to mention pointless style of argument, it actually says more about them than it does about us! Calling critics pharisees is the Christian version of Godwin’s law which humorously observes that “As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.” Once the opponents have been compared to a universally discredited person or group, any chance of meaningful dialogue vanishes.

This only describes the responses which stayed on topic. One blog said that our previous post “attacked the doctrine of the gospel of christ preached here in the SCOAN”. This was very confusing since the last post said nothing of the Gospel of Christ. Perhaps this says a lot about what they believe the gospel of Christ is. Another post claimed that our insistence that true biblical healing is final and complete is the “height of satanic deception”! Presumably that means they believe true divine healing is partial and incomplete? Seems a strange stance for a group so well known for their faith healing!

Despite all this rhetoric, we still do not have:

  1. Any biblical evidence that God heals someone, then takes away that same healing because of subsequent lack of faith or sinful living.
  2. Any biblical evidence that biblical healing is “The start of a process” rather than instantaneous.

What we do seem to have is unanimous agreement that the above two things are taught by SCOAN, despite no scriptural backing. No SCOAN supporter has so far suggested otherwise.

Perhaps we have not been clear enough in the points we’ve made. To be absolutely clear, we believe that:

  1. Personal faith is an essential element of the Christian’s life, and played a key part in many (though not all) of the healing miracles in the bible.
  2. Righteous living is important and some sickness is the direct result of an unhealthy and/or sinful lifestyle.

However, these are not the issues we are getting at. These two scenarios illustrate our concern:

  1. Arthur (not a real person) is HIV+, but after prayer he is healed. He goes to the doctor who confirms his healing and gives him the go ahead to come off his ARV medication. Several years later he is living a promiscuous lifestyle and he again contracts HIV. He has not lost his healing, he has “re-contracted” HIV through not maintaining a responsible and healthy lifestyle.
  2. A woman suffers from Diabetes. A pastor declares her healed and tells her to stop taking her medication. Within days of stopping her insulin, she is in a coma. No evidence of her being healed was ever witnessed. (True story)

Scenario 1 shows a genuine healing, one confirmed by the medical profession. However, some time later he was suffering from the same condition, not because he lost his healing, but because he recontracted the condition through a foolish and irresponsible lifestyle. Anyone living that lifestyle would have been vulnerable, regardless of whether or not they had previously suffered from it and been healed.

Scenario 2 shows no genuine healing at all, though SCOAN supporters accuse the lady of having not had enough faith to maintain her miracle.*

This brings us to the key point: If you have been healed of a condition, it is as if you had never had it in the first place. This is the difference between healing and treatment, treatment must be maintained until you reach a point (if ever) that your body is healed. Healing is the completed process. It does not make you invulnerable against ever suffering from the condition again – but if you never see any evidence of the healing having taken place, that’s not because you haven’t maintained it, it’s because you were never healed!

SCOAN supporters – these are serious issues causing a massive black cloud over the organisation you love so much. You can’t just say this is an issue we’ve invented, two world renown news organisations have investigated SCOAN (nothing to do with us!) and we had been discussing the issues long before their stories were released. Over the days surrounding the Sky and BBC reports, literally tens of thousands of people were sharing links to the story on facebook and twitter, magnitudes more than you see sharing about the supposed good things which go on at SCOAN. It is imperative that you can justify the methods used biblically, if you can’t you need to be questioning what you are doing supporting them in the first place.

We know you respond to our site out of your loyalty to SCOAN, but you do yourself (and SCOAN) no favours when you don’t even try to understand our concerns or represent them fairly. You may have a lot of high fiving going on on your own blog, but the fact is you’re preaching to the choir. Your inability or refusal to actually address the serious issues we raise is glaringly obvious to any third party watching on.

This post is continued in: Maintaining your miracle part 3

* Very similar stories could be told through the stories of 3 cancer victims we know of who died after TB Joshua falsely pronounced them healed. No visible evidence of this “healing” was ever witnessed before they died. The same accusations have been leveled at them by SCOAN supporters.

75 thoughts on “Maintaining your miracle, a followup

  1. My prayer is that people would wake up from their blind adulation of T B Joshua and see him for the fake prophet that he is. Enough has been said on this blog for people to make a decision and if they don’t, that’s their problem, may the Lord have mercy on them. TBJ has been able to carry on this deception for so long because of the cooperation and collaboration of his so called disciples, who are part and parcel of this orchestration and duplicity. Now, I don’t believe any “testimonies” from SCOAN, even if it comes from an angel, because I know many of them are orchestrated. What is this we hear that someone tried to kill TBJ with an axe, only to fall down at his feet helpless ? And then, TBJ gave the ” attempted murderer” some money to “set up himself.” This is all balderdash, one of the many fabrications to give TBJ cheap publicity ! O people, wake up from your blindness !
    A word to the wise is enough !

  2. @tbjoshuawatch for i tell you all this things you her doing is just to make the tbj to be more focus in is work with God. Just look at God greace in the life of tbj.you may thick that you want to descourage him not to continue the good work but i tell you, you her just motivating him the more and you her making him to be carefull.so i realy thinck you for your opposing role you her playing in the life of the man of God so that he will be stronge an also have more faith in God.

  3. @tbjoshuwatch

    James 5:15
    5:15 – [In Context|Original Greek]
    and the prayer R198 offered F86 in faith will restore F87 R199 the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise R200 him up, and if he has committed sins, they F88 will be forgiven him

    Psalms 41:3

    41:3
    The LORD will sustain him upon his sickbed *; In his illness, You restore him to health *.

    recovery [rɪˈkʌvərɪ]
    n pl -eries
    1. the act or process of recovering, esp from sickness, a shock, or a setback; recuperation
    2. restoration to a former or better condition
    3. the regaining of something lost

    Not every healing is instantaneous. Healing can be a process or it can be instantaneous as the Holy Spirit wills.

    The Bible also says

    James 1:6-8
    6 But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7 That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8 Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do.

    So based on these scriptures, what do you want TB Joshua to say to these people. “Oh well I am not really sure if you are healed or not” You must be single minded about what you are trusting God for.

    I have seen people being prayed for being healed instantly and people that recover over a period of time and people not recovering at all.

    I have been prayed for by many Pastors over many years and visibly could not feel or see any difference. Does that make all the Pastors and Prophets in the world Satanists.

    Show me 1 Pastor or Prophet in the world that every person they have prayed for has been healed. Show me 1 Pastor or Prophet in the world that had a crusade where every single person jumped out of their wheelchair, started seeing or was healed of cancer or aids. There ain’t any. So then you must start a blog about every man of God in the world and start pulling them apart.

    Have you ever prayed to God in the name of Jesus to heal yourself or a loved one from something and it did not happen? I have been praying for many years and yes in the natural I can’t see any change but God has been healing me from the inside out first dealing with my spirit man. Then we all should start blogging about ourselves and pulling each other apart. I might die in the condition I am but that will not change my confession and what I am trusting God for. I also can’t go blaming the pastors that prayed for me for the fact that I have not had my breakthrough yet.

    Every person has a unique walk with God. You go through seasons. You can’t just go to a vending machine and ask God to pop you out a miracle or expect to maintain it without plaing your part. “Through faith and patience we inherit the promises of God”

    Christianity is “the great fight of faith”. The devil walks around like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. It is not just 1 prayer then you have your miracle and everything is hunky dory. He will come at you till the day you die, trying to destroy you. A Christian has a role to play to fight the good fight of faith, that is why the Bible talks of “the great men of faith” like Abraham.

    I have endured lots of physical pain and brokenness for many years, I know what I am talking about. I have been at deaths door many years ago and I am still fighting the fight of faith. Your blog makes me want to get sick. Judge your own life’s with the measures you are dishing out, critically examine your own life’s before you start criticizing a church that at least wants to pray for seriously sick people.

    • This church prays for seriously sick people, and teaches that healing is a process but from the accounts published here this church has not given sufficient after care to people who are going through the healing process. These people have not been supported to continue to seek medical intervention while the process of healing occurs. Sorry that standing up against this church makes you want to get sick. I see it as standing up for the genuine healing ministry of the blood of Jesus.

    • @concerned – you make some interesting points. I just have some points…

      1) You define the word “recover” but the two scriptures you quote use the word “restore”. Apologies if I’ve missed something, but these are two very different concepts. I believe God’s restoration CAN be instantaneous

      2) The point re other pastors having failed healings. This is true – not every person who is prayed for is healed. None of us understand why healings fail, except that we are part of a fallen world and death comes to everyone eventually. If you have a relationship with God, death isn’t to be feared and if you aren’t healed it’s important to make peace with that before you die. What these bloggers take exception to is the SCOAN specific teaching that healing fails because of the victim’s lack of faith. This removes the chance for the person to make their peace with God because they are led to believe it’s their own fault and so they die in spiritual anguish. No other pastor preaches this, hence the focus on TB Joshua. The bloggers believe – as I do – that this teaching is unscriptual and dangerous. That’s without going into the advice against medication side of it…

    • @ Concerned,
      The problem with most ” Christians” today is their refusal to criticize or judge a false prophet, as the Bible commands us, due partly to ignorance and partly to ” idol” worship, and you see this blog as trying to destroy your idol, T B Joshua. I know how you feel because I’ve been there !

    • Bravo!!! Finally someone with the guts to speak sensibly about this nonsence. I dont understand what all this fuss is about. T B Joshua is a man like the rest of us. The only difference is that he has responded to the call of God and is trying as best he knows how to follow the command of God. How many of us is doing that and is having the impact that he has had with not just individuals but nations. I hear all this judgemental attitudes and comments about his ministry and whether he baptizes or doent baptize or whether he gives communion or does not give communion. I have been involved with Mountain of fire and Miracle ministries in the US for several years and I have not one day see anyone be baptized. I have seen communion occasionally and even then it is done with much warnings. What people dont understand is that the communion supperis the most abused ritual in the christian faith. we all know of people who take communion on a regular basis and is involved in one sin or another which only brings judgement on one’s self.
      What about baptism. Do you need to be baptized to be saved or to go to heaven. There ar people who are baptized and are on their way directly to hell and living insin.

  4. @mr terrific i pray dat d lord opens ur eyes to see dat the man u call fake is actually sent by God.dat someone tried to kill him in d church and fell down shows dat d lord is with him (tb joshua) day in & out. he only gave him some money to set up a bussiness that will help him in life rather than doing nothing and then be used by the devil.

    • @msi,
      Sure, TBJ had to orchestrate this so you deluded folks would believe God is with him. He NEEDED to do something fast to prop up his tattered image and he got it from deluded people who are too blind to see beyond their nose. Anyway, for us who are enlightened by the word of God, this grand deception is now destroyed and we’d no longer be deceived. Do you not know that we were some of those who were deceived by TBJ until we got out of this darkness of ignorance ? Yes, we supported him and even fought for him like you folks are doing now and it will take sometime for this deception to clear from your eyes !
      TB Joshua claims to turn ordinary water into the ” blood of Jesus” and you believe that, don’t you ? Yes, I used to believe that, too, as an ignorant fool that I was then back in the 90’s. Now I know it’s all balderdash and a doctrine of demons, like the Bible says in 1Tim 4:1. Look, you people can go on believing this charlatan all you want, but we know better !

      • Have I heard you right Mr T?
        This man claims to turn water into the Blood of Jesus – but from previous discussions it seems that the whole organisation lead by this man does NOT obey the words of Jesus spoken at the last supper about the “fruit of the vine” (i.e. wine) “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.
        They do not have communion so they are not regularly remembering the sacrifice of Jesus, which Jesus himself symbolised by Wine and not water. – well well – talk about watering down the gospel.
        Mr T has experienced this before but can anyone verify that this is occurring now?

      • @ Madelaine,
        I’m not saying they observe communion at SCOAN ! What I’m saying is that T B Joshua claims to turn ordinary running water from the tap into ” blood of Jesus”. They put this water into plastic bags and bottles and drink or wash with them or sprinkle. TBJ splashes this water on the people and some claim to be healed or delivered……The point I’m making here is that TBJ cannot turn water into the blood of Jesus, NEVER ! It’s like the Catholics who claim that wine turns into the actual blood of Jesus through, “transubstantiation”. What we need to understand here is that the blood of Jesus is God’s own blood, Acts 20:28, and no one has the power to turn water into God’s own blood, like TBJoshua claims. This is another one of his doctrines of demons !

      • The fact that the annointing water label says it is “for the salvation of your soul” says a lot about what they believe about it. Jesus’ blood is for the salvation of your soul, so I guess that confirms Terrific’s point.

      • I completely agree with you Mr Terrific. He is creating a counterfeit, it is false, it is fake. TBJoshua is ignoring the Bible and making it up for himself.

      • @Ian,
        Does the label on the “anointing water” bottle say it is for the salvation of souls ? Do I hear you right ? This is both sacrilegeous and blasphemous ! O Lord, how do your people perish for their lack of knowledge ! TBJoshua is destroying souls by the multitudes for making them believe in water for the salvation of their souls. This man T B Joshua is worse than a false prophet, he is a criminal and a destroyer of souls !

      • @mr terriffic.you always claim to be once for tbjoshua and that now, your eyes have been opened to see that you were being decieved.lie! Lie!! A big one at that, You were never for tbjoshua and can never be.you are only saying it so people will believe you.the truth is that you were only a spy to watch the happenings in the scoan, so you could use it against him.of a truth outsider cannot kill one but an insider.know this this day,you were never an insider or a member of scoan because you wanted to but because you would betray,just like judas iscariot.im not suprise because there must be betrayers.i know you take this as a complement because you are bent on bringing tbjoshua down as you claim that he is fake.you are doing this because you believe the bible asks you to.please i need the book of the bible that says we should critices.and if i may ask you, do you obey all the commands of the bible or it is only this part that talks about fake prophets you carryout? Because wit the way you talk about tbjoshua its just like they pay you to.DO THEY? If they do please say it now and stop pretending on this site and decieving people on this site.you delite so much joy in critising as concernd said (we should begin to pull ourselves apart) as well.tbjoshua is in all aspect better than us for him to be talked about all over shows that he is not ashamed or afraid of who he is. A man amongst men! A man of God and not just a man from God.

      • The only deception I see here is that you stiil nned your eyes to be opened to the truth. T B Joshua has never claimed to be sent from God. That is only a claim that Jesus the Christ can make. I have seen people being grateful for the work he has done make comments that place him in a position only worthy of Christ and he or the moderator has always corrected them to let them know that he is not the healer, Jesus is the healer. When they thank him for healing them they are corrected and are pointed back to Jesus Christ. People have bowed at his feet and he too bow to the person or have even run away from the person to avoid taking the Glory in place of Jesus. People have wanted to clean his shoes and he refused but instead clean the person’s shoes.

      • @ Karen,

        Yeah, for sure, but when carefully observed and investigated. Some people are great actors and attention seekers because of their problems they cannot resolve. Notice the obvious, Financially, So called Spiritual Husband and Wife, Making mistakes in greed for the cares of this world, Don’t read their bibles, Looking for support for money that is taken from others shuffled to another and seeing the giver rather than the original giver of it, and so forth. Those actors with those demons, they should actually apply to Hollywood for the first Exorcist Movie that is planned for 2012.

        Why am I saying this ? Because you can’t fool me with antics that are too obvious and also many think that everyone that watches these matters are just eating every sweet cake that is presented.

        Also I know what this scripture says that many just keep sweeping under the carpet:

        Let NO man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4

        Watch especially WORSHIPPED. All of you are under the charm of the workings of T. B. Joshua and crew.

        Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with ALL power and signs and lying wonders, And with ALL deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them STRONG delusion, that they should believe a LIE: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
        2 Thessalonians 2:9-12

    • @ Ene & Albert,
      God commended the church at Ephesus because ” they tried those who called themselves apostles but are not, and has found them liars.” Rev 2:2. In Acts 17:10-11, the Bereans checked the Bible to see whether what the apostle Paul taught them was true, but did not just swallow his word because he was apostle. The problem with you folks at the Synagogue, and, indeed, with many Christians is that of ignorance of the Bible, and that’s why God’s people perish for their lack of knowledge. Hosea 4:6. We are to judge every man and his message and method by the word of God like the Bereans and Ephesians did, but you people don’t even know your Bible, but you think you know a “man of God”. Lord have mercy on your people and heal their blindness and dumbness.

      • @mrTerrific thank you for want you said but may GOD also have mercy on you for critisising and accusing a man of God.

      • @ Albert,
        You see, you people don’t get it, you still don’t understand. Who told you T B Joshua is a man of God ? You see, Albert, that’s what I thought when I didn’t know my Bible, but now I know TBJ is a false prophet, and is just one of the many false prophets that Jesus warned us about in Matt 24:24. You people should look up to Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith, Hebrews 12:2, and not put your trust in a mortal man, and a deceitful one as T B Joshua. A word is enough for the wise !

      • @mr Tarrif thank you very much for your word of advice, you her totally right. But what i want you an your sponsors to do is to leave tb joshua alone and is ministry God has lay in is hand. Thank you.

      • Albert, the reason I can’t let this alone (and I am not a sponsor of this site but I do regularly comment) is that someone I was close to died having been pronounced healed by TB Joshua. I believe that if she hadn’t have come into contact with SCOAN she wouldn’t have refused treatment and if she hadn’t refused treatment then I believe she would still be alive today. That is why I can’t leave this ‘ministry’ alone. I want to warn other people of the dangers of believing this man and his followers. I do not expect people who are already followers to change their view, but for the undecided I want to say – beware!

      • @ Albert,
        My brother, you still don’t realize it is our Christian duty to EXPOSE T B Joshua, his lies, deceit, manipulations and false doctrines so that people can make informed decisions ? Do you want us to leave him so that he could continue to destroy lives and souls? Even if only one person is set free from this deception of TBJ, our effort won’t be in vain. And, note that no one has sponsored us to do this, but we do it out of love for the brethren and for God and for truth. Read Revelations 2:12-16, and you see that God condemned the church at Pergamos for tolerating the false doctrines of Balaam and the Nicolaitans, which thing God hates. As true believers, we must hate things God hates, and not tolerate them, but expose them.

      • I am confused. So did Jesus appoint you a judge. How circumspect is your life? What do you know of TB Joshua personally to be his judge? What revelations did you recieve from God himself or the Holy Spirit about TB Joshua? I am sure that most if not all of your impressions about this humble servant of God has been based on hearsay. And you think you have a duty to judge him? How amazing!
        I have watched Bisiola’s video about TB Joshua. I was nauseating and revolting. Which pastor or preacher is going to claim he is a deliverance minister and be living in sin and expect to cast out demons? Have you not been watching Emmanuel TV to see the multitude and the strength of the satanic opposition tha thave shown up at the Synagogogue on a regular basis?

      • Hi Karen. There have been many people who have suggested watching Emmanuel TV but this channel is made by SCOAN for SCOAN and is about what happens at SCOAN. Every bit of publicity that I have seen about SCOAN seems to mention the name of TBJ more than the name of Jesus.

  5. From the moderator: Your comments were just links to youtube videos, nothing new. The key in our statement was “equivalent to those found in scripture” and showing us videos of miracles supposedly happening does not prove that. Justifying the maintaining your miracle teaching is the way to address that issue.


    Why are not posting my comment???

    Remember you said – I quote ” If his supporters were able to clearly show that he was responsible for a significant number of bonafide, validated healings which could be shown to be equivalent to those found in scripture, we detractors would be forced to reconsider our position.”

    Are you not a man of your word?

  6. Slightly off-topic but calling you pharisees really is ridiculous. Who is the religious leader with a large organisation and a load of followers? Who has connections to the government and ruling forces of the day? Who has all the status in society? Hmmmmmm…

  7. Hello,

    This post was rejected on the other side WatchTBJoshua, so I am requesting if it can be posted here. I would appreciate this very much.#

    http://watchtbjoshua.wordpress.com/2011/12/10/dagger-men-in-scoan-vs-tb-joshua-watch-whos-worse-off/

    @ All,

    Solution if it is really true what is claimed in SCOAN.

    Get Sky News and the BBC with camera’s and a team with independent unrelated doctors, surgeons and journalists in SCOAN and in any branch of the SCOAN abroad.

    Bring in sick people and or believers/christians unrelated from the SCOAN and from any race, Coloured, White, Red, Yellow, with HIV, Broken bones, Wheelchair bound, Arthritis sufferers, Spinal Curvature, Polio, Lung diseases, Cancer, Diabetes, Heart problems and all other diseases that someone can have.

    Bring them in and let the Sky News, the BBC and several newspapers come in and a team of the doctors as I said from Hospitals with credentials and which are registered in the Health Sector.

    Let them film all what is going on and record it and let the doctors/surgeon team investigate before and afterwards with paperwork all the dates of the X-Rays, Medical records of the diseases and establish if the water and anointing truly works as is claimed within the time that is said by you all.

    So prove this once and for all before God and man that the SCOAN is out of God for the whole world to see.

    But I am afraid I will not have to hold my breath for that, because likely this is not going to happen.

    Secondly, I would like to mention from another site “We would start our response their recent publication on the anointed water which has sent millions free.”

    Millions you say ? (I questioned it) Are they all registered as well by Name, Age, Birthplace and Hometown and Country ? Is this list held in the SCOAN ?

    Nobody is saying that God does not heal anywhere ? “an ungodly bloc” They are ungodly ? People that want to unmask matters and claims are ungodly ? Why ? Ah, people must swallow everything as sweet cakes what is happening without questioning ? Are you for real ?

    Nicodemus said to Jesus: There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. John 3:1-2

    So if T.B. Joshua is out of God, it would not matter to be coming forth to show to the world without his own personal camera’s in front of secular camera’s that he is out of God.

    So here is the deal…… Let’s go for it. Nobody is asking for a “sign” here, but for proof that God worketh in those that you all claim.

    What do you have to loose T. B. Joshua ? What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? Romans 8:31

    Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Romans 8:33-34

  8. @mr Tariff your responde to concern.pleace can you tell me were in the bible Jesus said we should critisis any one even sininer.this is one of the statement @ian made in the formal post when he gave me a chapter in the bible that have nothing to do with criticising any one .pleace if you known you can kindly tell because i am some one that like to learn new things.pleace tell me were it is in the bible that we should critisis any one.

    • Hi Albert, I didn’t give that scripture about critisism, I gave it about the importance of action and prayer because you asked why don’t we just pray that TB Joshua be exposed instead of taking action. This was a quick (off the top of my head) response to show that action and prayer are both important.

      If you think people here are just “critisising” TB Joshua, you have us wrong. We’re exposing his (extremely serious) false teachings. This is an entirely biblical activity, I really don’t have time to go through lots of verses for you, but you can find them yourself if you search on google something like “bible verses about exposing false teachers”.

      If you don’t agree that he is a false teacher, let me ask you this – why does his annointing water say on it “for the salvation of your soul”? I’m sure you know the bible enough to know that only one thing is for the salvation of our soul, and it’s not TB Joshua’s annointing water! I could go on with these kind of examples, but again – I really don’t have time right now.

      • @ian i want you to know that action in the bible as to do with taken a positive step back up by faith not the negative step you people are taken now you people her just behaving as if you her the one figthen the battle, you people should live the battle for GOD. Consining the anionting water. It is the grace of God in the water that give salvation not the water itself.e.g when some one is sick may be due to the sin he/she commited or may be the person is not a beliver, befor the person use the anionting water he have to pray for the salvation of is soul for the anionting water to work in is lives.tbj is not saying is the water that give salvation,salvation come form God but it is the greace of God in the anionting water that give salvation.

      • I suppose you’d consider Jesus chasing the money changers out of the temple with a whip a negative step then?

      • @ian pleace do not lie at Jesus for he do not drive them out of the temple with a whip.he only pack out their loads which was the right thing to do.

      • John 2:14-15 “In the temple he found those who were selling oxen and sheep and pigeons, and the money-changers sitting there. And making a whip of cords, he drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and oxen. And he poured out the coins of the money-changers and overturned their tables.”

        No doubt he’d do the same today for people who charge an entry fee to those who want to come to church or who sell photos of themselves to their followers.

      • @ian pleace which version of the bibe her you using becouse i did not see anything like whip in my bible.and also tbj do not charge does who want to come to is church money eccept those who came for abroad which the money is use to book for hotel and feeding.

      • That was English Standard. NIV also mentions “whip”, King James and NASB use the word scourge – the definition of which is “A lash; a strap or cord; especially, a lash used to inflict pain or punishment; an instrument of punishment or discipline; a whip.”

        What version are you using?!

        This is way off topic now, so let’s leave it there.

      • It is the grace of God in the water that give salvation

        The grace of God works exclusively through the blood of Christ, not through the “anointed” water of a Nigerian conman.

      • @ian but God is using the man you called the ‘Nigeria conman’ have done what i do not thinck you can do for the rest of your life.soory if you thinck i insult you but that just the truth.

    • @ Albert,
      Read Acts 17:10-11; Rev 2:2; Rev 2:12-16. If you need explanation, you can check this blog.

  9. @kate Jesus christ have associated is self with me of authourity if you daft me read luke7:7-10 . Pleace do not talk as if you her jealous of the man of God.

    • Sorry, I don’t really understand what you mean here. Which comment are you referring to? If it’s the pharisee comment, no I’m not jealous of TBJ’s status in nigerian society. Why would I be?! That’s a bizarre conclusion to draw. All I was saying there was that in terms of position, TBJ is more like the pharisees than the writers of this site. Not that I know them all personally so maybe I’m wrong…

  10. Can you for Christ sake post my comment so that we can all examine everything in the light of God’s word if really you want people to see both side to your articles.
    Of course it is a youTube link I have to use to view a video clip on wordpress. Please post my comment with this video link I am sending again.

    youtube.com/watch?v=gxYz5elkpKA
    youtube.com/watch?v=HAaocLKkwT0
    youtube.com/watch?v=ftCfxpfeedE

    This video below goes with the picture on your article
    youtube.com/watch?v=OwH6Dps_f24

    If the videos are not new to you, they are to some of the readers.

  11. Vice President of Malawi was in The SCOAN with the husband with stroke. Watch to know if the healing took place.

    youtube.com/watch?v=TCd5g-IaDuA

    Please post my comments…

    • Hi Natasha

      I’m not sure what you think you’ll gain through posting these videos. The debate is not about whether or not TB Joshua performs miracles. Even if he does this doesn’t prove he is of God. Plenty of verses have been used on this site to prove that it is not only “men of God” who can perform these miracles. The debate here is do his miracles match what we see in the bible. If you carefully read the two posts about miracle maintenance, I think they make a good case for the answer being an emphatic “no!”.

      By the way, videos are not the best evidence of his miracles anyway – a thorough independent investigation by medical professionals as Katharsis suggests is what really needs to happen (but never will!).

      • Could SCOAN supporters at least post a link to any other christian ministry that teaches the “maintain your miracle” theology. I don’t know of any!

  12. @terrific. U see pple like u would stop @ nutin in destroying d image of tb joshua. D water is just a medium d anointing is done in jesus name.Just like paul d apolstle apron in d hible. Guess u know d verse n chapter since u know ur bible very well

      • Do u get healed and then go back to sin. U nid to be saved. So why ask.As it is a medium of healing so also it is a way of telin others dat u nid to be saved.

  13. @kate,pls can you proove that tbjoshua is more like a pharisee to the critics on this site.atleast when the wordpress site watchtbjoshua said the critics were like the pharisee,there was proof that every one culd see.so i await your reply please.and to mr terriffic,the book of the bible that talks about we christians critisising fake prophets and christians.

  14. Oh how late i was to a lie flowing post.
    Anyway, i think i should go down to the point.(about salvation of souls)
    yes it was written for healing, deliverance, blessing, salvation of souls.now whats the basis for healing/deliverance/blessing etc? When we are healed, aren’t we healed for the salvation of our souls? Whats the big deal? Or maybe you guys want us to be healed for the eternal damination of our souls. When i adviced you to watch E.tv you took it to be an advice from the devil. By now your every doubt would have been cleared for faith. Knowing its not the water that does the healing but the power of God. The water is just a medium. Or you could seek the booklet that talks about the anointen water instead of taking only on the writings at the bottle. Half knowledge is harmful.

  15. @tbjoshuawatch.in your post you used the book of exodus 7:10-14 and atributed tbjoshua’s healing to be like that of pharoahs sorcerers but you fail to read down to know what it says.it was writen that moses and aarons staff swallowed that of the sorcerers when they tried to do the same and that showed moses and aaron were of God.so leave tbjoshua alone! If he is not of God he will fail.but today you see miracles but you atribute it to other gods rather than God who stands supreme above all.this is what i consider as being blindfolded.mr terriffic said we christians are blind and prays for God to open our eyes to see. but i doubt because i(we) see properly,i (we) know those who have fake powers,sorcerers and can distinquish them from those with real and true spiritual powers of God.tbjoshua is very accessable but untorchable. Mr teriffic know that! He did not make that story up of daggar man but it happened as a test of his divine nature.

    • Here we go again, TB Joshua is part divine. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you don’t realise what that means – but I rather fear you do.

  16. Oh good grief, this wasn’t meant to be a complicated comment. I wasn’t saying that tbj WAS like a pharisee, just that the bloggers here weren’t because they’re not a) religious leaders with people hanging off their every word or b) connected to the rulers of their society. It’s a completely ridiculous comparison, the only purpose of which is to cast tbj once again in the role of Jesus. As a small band of unimportant people (sorry tbjwatch but it’s true) taking on a powerful and established church, they are more akin to the early disciples rather than the pharisees.

  17. @ Ene,

    Quote,
    “He did not make that story up of daggar man but it happened as a test of his divine nature.”

    I was attacked three times in my live with knives, breadknives and daggers by robbers, thieves and protagonists. Many have tried to beat me up to a pulp from when I was a little child to an adult.

    I think they were after my divine nature.

    Mawhahahaha, what a crock, Ene. I had to hold myself on the edge of my desk with laughing about that one, otherwise I would have fallen off my chair.

    As the time progresses more complete nonsense is being posted here by the supporters of T. B. Joshua.

    @ Doi,

    “When i adviced you to watch E.tv you took it to be an advice from the devil.”

    Doi, thou shalt not lie and make false statements.

    It is written Doi,

    If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong; Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days; And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother; Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you. Deuteronomy 19:16-19

    and….

    Exodus 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

    and…

    Proverbs 6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

    @ Natasha,

    I saw one of the videos, where someone was interviewing Marthinus van der Westerhuizen in SA.

    He said first: When T. B. Joshua was praying for me nothing happened, yet later in the video he tells us how he felt that rushing power was going through him and carried on about this while talking to the the interviewer.

    What is it now Natasha ? Did nothing happen or did something happen, clearly Marthinus van der Westerhuizen can’t make up his mind, does he now ?

    And there are more of those videos where people say one thing the next they say something else.

    More and more this whole thing becomes more confusing by the day and I am concerned that some people are caught up in some matters that they can’t come out of it unless God will show them. Or not. What this scripture clearly says.

    And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12

  18. @Ian. I don’t understand where you guys get this whole story that Healings in Scoan aren’t instataneous. I’ll gladly welcome proofs to vindicate that.cos to my understanding the healings are instant and life changing.

    • I visited Lagos. It us now quite a long time ago but I recall while I was there watching healing videos being told that healing as demonstrated at SCOAN was a process. So that is where I get the idea.

  19. You dont know us in person and all you say is that we dont know our bible.you feel or think you know your bible but you are just like the pharisees of old.let me tell you your problem,you only read or use the bible to suit your philosophy of life. of a truth you are to check the bible and examine what a man of God says..but who says you should judge? It wasnt writen please!!. Read the same HOSEA 4:4 (but let no man bring a charge, let no man accuse another,for your people are like those who bring charges against a priest). it all started because God wanted to bring up charge against the people of isreal,because of their lack of knowledge of the scripture and comands,they lie,steal,commit adultary,they break all bounds,and bloodshed follows. How does this relate to judging prophets and christians mr terriffic? I tink the bible is being misinterpreted here.oh God open mr terrific eyes of faith to see deep enough that judgement is yours.matt 7:1-6.

    • @ Ene,
      “……You have tried them which say they are apostles but are not, and have found them liars.” Revelations 2:2. How did this happen if those false apostles were not judged by the word of God ? God commended the church at Ephesus for exposing false apostles but condemned the chuch at Pergamos for tolerating false doctrines. Look, you people at the Synagogue should learn and know your Bible and stop following T B Joshua blindly.

  20. Ene, just like Paul I can say I know you in the Spirit, because what comes out of your writing here is flawed and distorted and does not line up:

    1. Scripture
    2. The work of the True Holy Spirit
    3. Claims about a person that has according to you a divine Nature that needs to be tested.
    4. Claims about Adultry in the participants in T. B. Joshua Watch.
    5. Claims about Bloodshed from the participants in T. B. Joshua Watch.
    6. Claims about Break all Bounds in the participants of T. B. Joshua Watch. (Please specify what bounds were broken ?)
    7. Lack of knowledge in the participants of T. B. Joshua Watch.
    8. Your gross misinterpretation of Biblical Truths and even skipping them, not even to say not applying them either practically which are guidelines in the Bible.
    9. No Judgment is taking place here, but genuine investigation of Scriptural Truths as the Bereans were doing.
    10. Making up lies against believers who don’t want to swallow strange doctrines and deviations as the Gospel which is in the Bible as it is written.

    Going in denial about the following scripture that is applicable to a committed Christian and Believer and Follower of Jesus Christ Who is Lord.

    But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. 1 Peter 2:9-10

    Ene, Tell me what did you know about the Holy Spirit before you entered SCOAN ? And how do you assess that what you have seen in SCOAN is the Holy Spirit and by what means you assess this ? Are all the manifestations of what the Bible describes about the Holy Spirit in SCOAN. Please show me scripture and evidence that this is so. Thank you.

    • Sorry nanardi,i wasnt referring to any participant in tbjoshua watch. I simply quoted the bible according to Hosea 4:1-4. And what the people of isreal where doing that made the lord bring charges upon them.

  21. Madelaine. I actually wouldn’t like to bring this to the arguement that you weren’t told such words. But i would exactly want to know the miracles you consider a process. Are you saying they are all a process? Or you’re talking about open sores that takes days/weeks to permanently close up? Or! Are you saying maintainance of miracle is a process? cos i have withnessed first hand were women with delayed pregnancy deliver instantly after being prayed for. Which over rules the normal labour hours.are we talking of people who are paralysed and are placed on wheel chairs and they immediately stand up of their wheelchairs after prayer. The blind see, the lame work the deaf hear immediately after a spirit filled prayer…to mention but a few. Can anyone tell me what process this takes. Miracles takes place live and people from all works of life see and became convinced. How did you all misquote all these to a process?

  22. Hi Doi.
    You would not like to bring to this argument that I was not told such words – does this mean that you would like to bring to the argument that I was told such words? So you are agreeing with me that SCOAN teaches that Healing is a process.
    You have asked what miracles I consider a process. But all that I have said is that the place where I heard this teaching was at SCOAN in Lagos.
    I would agree with you Doi that Healings are instant and life changing except when they are not – except when the person who has been told that they are healed, by someone with the charisma of TB Joshua then finds that they are not healed. It seems that rather than being free to accept that on this occasion TB Joshua just got it wrong they are then given the teaching about healing being a process and the reason that they are not seeing the completion of that process is something to do with them. The reality is that TB Joshua just got it wrong.

  23. Okey Madelaine. Lets do it.

    Tell me how the message was preached. How in particular did he say it. And what was the healing taking place at that particular time. I stronly believe there was a misinterpretation somewhere. Yes i believe there’s a process but not the healing.

    • Doi, this smells a bit like backpeddling to me… You can’t defend the “miracle maintenance” teaching and claim that healing is not a process. Maintenance means to “Cause or enable (a condition or state of affairs) to continue”, process means to “Perform a series of operations on (something) in order to change or preserve it“. In otherwords, both words are basically describing the same thing. Are you denying the need for miracle maintenance now?

  24. We do have a mis-understanding Doi because I am not talking about a specific message. I have just re-read the diary that I kept at the time to refresh my memory. (this was over eight years ago) Daily we watched videos of various healings and I had recorded that we were told that these were to build faith. The videos were all of “success stories” but some could not obviously be seen as successful. The videos were of interviews before, during and after being prayer for healing. I recall the person who had organised the group sitting with us while we watched explaining this teaching of a “process” of healing. Before you or anyone says that “TB Joshua cannot be responsible for what people say,” Everything that was said was prefaced with “our father in the lord Prophet TB Joshua says ….” It is from that continually repeated phrase that I get the idea that this teaching comes from TB Joshua.
    There was another time when this group leader talked about the “process” of healing and that was when talking about someone who has since died – after being told that they were healed.(the cause of their death was the condition that was declared healed) It is that instance and the other similar examples that we both know about where I would say that the evidence indicates that TB Joshua was incorrect in his declaration that this person was healed.

  25. Ian and co. I just told you i believe there’s a process. But not the healing in itself . Maybe they were actually refering to open sores that takes a little time to close up. Or the process of constantly making God’s word the standard for life ie. being ruled by The word.and this helps in proper mantainance of the miracle. Try having a personal interview with people who have been healed and hear their part of the story. And know even Those with open sores immediately feel free after prayer. That should convince you beyound all reasonable doubt. Instead of having wrong interpretation of words.
    Something really amaizes me. Why do you guys seem to concentrate more on the little you believe are wrong negleting the many you know are right. Isn’t this the spirit of unprogresiveness?
    Even if the worker or disciples makes mistakes, must we fight with it? Are we above mistakes? Certainly no. It just pains me most that we still have such people in this world. If you can’t do the right to change the wrongs you believe then it’s better you stop mentioning them. It makes no difference.
    Thanks. God bless…

    • Doi, as Ian has said before, the reason we concentrate on the ‘ little you believe are wrong’ is because they died after they had been declared healed. If they had not been declared healed it is llikely that they would have accepted medical treatment and not died. I am not interested in whether or not people are healed following prayer by TB Joshua, I am interested in the fact that he and his followers have told people they are healed when they are not. This is dangerous behaviour.

  26. Completely Off Topic Comment – Sorry Moderators.
    Happy Christmas to all on TBJoshuaWatch and all the people who have added to this ongoing debate over this year. There are people who visit this site who express loyalty to TBJoshua and I hope that I have been open about the reasons why I cannot agree with you.
    That will not stop me saying:-

    Happy Christmas to you all.
    May you all enjoy this time when we celebrate that miracle of the birth of Jesus the Son of God our Saviour.
    See you next year.

  27. Pingback: Maintaining your miracle part 3 « TB Joshua Watch

  28. When I read “two world renown news organization have investigated ——,” I was keen to read, only to find out that that was “Shy and BBC” You can only accept or see these two bodies as the fountain of truth and all knowing if you live in the 3rd world. I saw two men enter the hall at becberk college one sunday and asked them where and who they were?. The one with the mic said that they were from sky. I smiled and said “Ok” My opinion, I did not see the one with the mic intelligent enough to understand things of the spirit. He looked a excited and keen to ask low level questions of the flesh. He lacked confidence and had a sheepish simile hanging around his mouth.. So I left him. I didn’t know if he was invited or came in own his own to cause trouble. That was my second time of attending the service.

    • It’s hilarious when SCOAN supporters avoid the issues these reports highlight by attacking the credibility of the BBC and Sky. The BBC in particular has a reputation as the most credible news organisation in the world. Of course they’re not the fountain of all truth, but I would trust their findings far more than SCOAN TV!

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