End of year updates (Wisemen demoted/US cult/Court case)

This is likely to be the last post of 2015, TB Joshua Watch will soon be taking a break until at least the new year. This may mean some comments get stuck in moderation during this time, please bear with us. This post is a brief news roundup of recent developments.

Wisemen are now “evangelists”

We revealed a while back that the wisemen at SCOAN were no more. Several people misunderstood what we were saying and accused us of lying because some of the “wisemen” were still around. The point we were making was that the office of wiseman is gone, not necessarily that the people had left SCOAN. Further acknowledgement of this can be seen today from SCOAN when Racine was introduced as “Evangelist Racine” rather than “Wiseman Racine”. Those who know their SCOAN titles understand this is a significant demotion. SCOAN once claimed that the wisemen were five four men who had received Divine anointing, used by God to prophesy, heal and deliver people. What happened to that “anointing”?


Court case

There has been yet another delay on the court case, this time seemingly the fault of the Lagos state government’s counsel, who said they had not finished serving all defendants (source). Remember the families in prayer who are now facing a second Christmas without their loved ones.

US cult – The Gathering

If you follow us on Facebook, you’ll have seen this article already. Christianity Today recently published an excellent expose of a cult known as the Gathering, founded by “How Great is our God” co-writer Ed Cash. There are so many parallels with SCOAN, including the sexual abuse allegations against the group’s leader Wayne Jolley. A few quotes are below, but we encourage you to read the whole article to education yourself on the dangers of spiritual abuse.

TB Joshua’s followers call him “Daddy”, Jolley’s followers call him “Pop”, and like SCOAN there’s the implicit message that there’s no salvation without a relationship with a “man of God” or “Prophet” :

“Jolley’s followers, who call him “Pop” (his wife, Linda, is “Mom”), are taught that only the prophet can really discern the will of God. Without a prophet’s help, they will be lost. The best way to get close to God, he tells them, is to get close to Mom and Pop.”

Likewise, everything that goes wrong in life is demonic, and can only be resolved by the help of a “man of God” – so you’d better stay on his good side!

““They are being controlled by a demon and all the while, singing, ‘O how I love Jesus,’” said Jolley in the sermon.

The only way to fight Jezebel is with the help of a man of God or prophet, who follows in Elijah’s footsteps, said Jolley. Such a person acts as a spiritual father to other Christians, discerning God’s will for their lives and telling them to be free of Jezebel”

And just like SCOAN’s recorded confessions, Jolley will think nothing to blackmailing people who speak out.

“One of the first questions that Jolley asks newcomers, Frank said, is “What is the worst thing you’ve ever done in your life?” He then uses their secrets as a kind of spiritual blackmail.”

Finally – of course the other side of these stories is the broken families who have been cut off from sons/daughters/parents etc.

“For the past eight years, the Gills have prayed that their children would leave Jolley. Every Christmas, Patricia decorates the house, in hopes that her daughters will come home.
“Maybe they’ll be home this year,” she said.”
“The Gills say they aren’t angry with their daughters. They believe their daughters want to honor God but have been deceived by Jolley. They hope that soon he will be exposed as a fraud.”

As Christmas approaches, there are many families that have been split up by TB Joshua who approach the season with a sense of grief, unable to fully experience the joy of the celebration not being with their loved ones or knowing how they are. Let’s pray that 2016 will bring an end to both these cults and a reuniting of broken families through the grace of the saviour we’re celebrating now.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New year to all our readers. Regardless of whether you are here to “correct us” or to receive support and encouragement from others who have been hurt by SCOAN – we pray for God’s blessing on you for 2016.


399 thoughts on “End of year updates (Wisemen demoted/US cult/Court case)

  1. Thanks for your continued perseverance in informing and warning people. I was interested to note that the “Hungry Generation” ministries on the west coast is having John Chi as a guest, but they were very specific that he is not a “wiseman” and that the event is not associated with SCOAN in any way. Verrrry interesting. Aparently Chi is an “apostle” now. http://www.hungrygeneration.net/about/raisedtodeliver2016/

    Have a blessed and wonderful Christmas!

    • @M
      It is strange the emphasis on not having any association with SCOAN. My guess is that SCOAN might not approve of his being there, I’m fairly sure the split with SCOAN was not amicable no matter what outward display we see. I also can’t get my head round the mandatory screening to be part of the prayer line. There’s something fishy about that.

      Happy Christmas to you too!

      • Mandatory screening is part of the fraudulent practices of SCOAN and Chi is just following the steps of his fraudulent mentor and false prophet, TBJ.

      • this hungry generation is such a disgusting and unscrupulous ministry, the only thing they are hungry for is money. a few years ago, this must have been in 2012/2013, scoan asked all groups that were facilitating visits to scoan to stop charging people money for invitations. and at the time hungry generation was charging $200 per visitor. I thought they had stopped doing that. today i received this email from them.

        It has been brought to our attention that there is some suspicion of fraudulence activity. Be aware of anyone who claims to work with Hungry Generation and their requests for money. The Hungry Gen Team has clearly stated that you are not to pay for anything until you have received an invitation from SCOAN. We will have someone contact you directly from our church number………..and/or from our emails …….. with everything in regards to the trip. Any communication made outside of the contact information listed above is NOT affiliated with the Hungry Generation ministry. For any questions please contact us with the number above or one of the emails provided.
        Thank You
        Hungry Gen

        SICK! this greedy bunch of hungry generation of thieves are charging Americans and Canadians for an invitation to scoan! What a Scam! It already cost a lot of money to go to scoan and these greedy thieves are extorting visitors for more money. And they are scared that another scammer is trying to outsmart them. Unbelievable!

      • Hey Guys

        I tried to call them and it did not let my phone number through as it was black listed to it and resulted in tututututututu beeps.

        I wrote them a message they never responded on it. They are Russian, Polish or something from that area. I checked them on Google maps where they are. The pastor is certainly very strange and has a funny left eye lid that covers his eye. I watched a couple of videos when he was preaching.

        I said before, why if TB Joshuas Healings are genuine why is it not possible to heal his eye ? Simply because it is a genuine condition and it could prove that when you have a genuine problem, he just can’t do anything.

        But I already knew that from my own experience.

  2. If u dnt knw shit abt tb joshua u beta dnt mock him. Remember the children that mocked God’s prophet and what hapened to dem. So back d fuck up b4 u get smacked d 4ck up!

  3. @Everyone, we shall keep calling unto God on behalf of those trapped in the web of Joshua and his likes scattered all of the world.
    I told John Chi to give his life to Christ genuinely, what he is doing now is an old tricks of his master but I think he is enjoying the euphoria.
    May His Love cover us through this time in Jesus’ Name.
    Merry Christmas

  4. We give glory to God for everything and for the various contributions to this site, in exposing the wolf, T B Joshua, and his Synagogue of Satan. We pray the New Year would bring more enlightenment to the Lord’s people so they could be set free from false prophets and preachers, from the cult of SCOAN and T B Joshua and many others.

  5. @TBJoshua watch:you know what? I loooooooooooooooooooooooooooovvvvvvvvvvvveeeeeeee y’all Guys,enjoy this festive season knowing that you’ve warned touched many lives with your love!maranatha

  6. Thank you @tbjoshuawatch for being a faithful watchman and one not given to gossip and slander. Your criticism of TB Joshua is very mature.

    One other thing you need to watch is the next appearance TB Joshua makes since Mexico Crusade in May. Doe he has ‘crossover’ prayers to usher the new year? What about a special Chriatmas service?

  7. Have wonderful Christmas days and a prosperous, blessed, strong, healthy New Year. I hope you all draw closer to God when He calls you and understanding better what Jesus did and that you all stay filled with the Holy Spirit and stay strong in the Might of our Lord.

    Kind regards and God’s richest blessings and direction for 2016 and beyond !!!!

    Ps, you all know that there will be plane crashes, shootings in US and elsewhere, terror attacks in several countries, a shift in many politics and oil businesses for 2016. May God forbid the evil things to materialise but at least you heard it first here and not from TBJ. 😉 Y’all know what I mean by that, huh. 😉

  8. TbJoshuaWatch and the blog ‘family’;
    Thank you for your on going watch. May you all be filled with love and peace for this season and 2016. We will keep on praying and watching for scoan’s devotees to wake up in their minds and take the courage of their convictions to come out permanently. Love you all in Jesus.
    PS. It looks like the one ‘wiseman’ that God dropped, is having a rising time, while the ‘wisemen’ God did NOT DROP are falling down. Ha, ha…… TB Joshua is such a joke.

  9. Last holiday for tbjwatch ? Do not forget that we are still in the period of “crossing the bridge”. We pray that the evil spirit that drives you be destroyed and that your life becomes more splendid with less hatred and enmity.

    • We pray that in the New Year, the false prophet, TBJ, who is now also a fugitive from the law for the murder of innocent lives, would return to Nigeria to face the law! He can run but cannot hide and his sins will definitely find him out and put him where he belongs.. .behind bars!!!

    • @ Domi DG,

      I want to react on a post in the former post of TB Joshua of why he needs a private plane according to your necrotic information your brought forward.

      What an utter garbage can you construct in and out of your mind and them and after you have been lectured by TB Joshua Watch of how in the past many followers of Jesus Christ came to an end because it was their time, I want to remind you about Myles Monroe with his private plane of what happened to him and his family.

      You really think that everything stands with having an private plane ? What an utter tosh remarks you did as well how TB Joshua was telling us the reason why he needed it to his congregation.

      While we are sitting in normal economy, premium economy in occasions or even business class, it is just one of the most dumbest remarks I have seen from you for this month regarding all of this and it’s justification.

      While I walk, climb, fly, drive and floating on water in every nook and cranny of this earth and in the most dark places as well and inside all kinds of travel arrangements for over dozens of years, nobody ever was able in touching me or have been able to do anything to me.

      Although some have tried with knives, guns and other means, it never came to fruition or came to pass that it is a fact that my life was and is hidden in God and that I am here for a time such as this.

      Your false private prophet is a SCAM and a cowardly prophet because I remember a video where he was parading a woman with a big bottom where he claimed that he was untouchable and all the angels were around him and his whole ministry. Also confirmed by CS Upthegrove it WAS THE SAME YEAR when the Hostel collapsed and all the trouble started him with his public big mouth. Now he is hiding.

      You are a joke ! The biggest of this month !

  10. John chi now presides his own church in cameroom, he preaches like tbjoshua, sells anointed water and his followers give testimonies like the way in synaguoge..his church name is Art of GOD..WATCH HIM ON MYTV(intasat 7ku)

  11. TB joshua is trying to humiliate and demote the wisemen because they had become more popular than him. I thank God for separating Apostle John Chi and Wiseman Harry from that kind of abuse.
    By having proudly displayed them on his website before and claiming that God had anointed them and then backtracking on his words discredits him. Either he was telling the truth or he was lying, viewers are not stupid and TB Joshua cant scrape everything off the internet. Wiseman Harry still has the evidence on his website, http://www.scoanthessalonica.org/416015093

    • Whoever needs the false prophet’s “anointing”, recommendation, approval or whatever? The man is false and all his ” sons” are false too! They’re birds of the same feathers!

      • @Mr Terrific

        I agree with you. These so-called wisemen operate with the same false spirit as their mentor TB Joshua. As far as we know they still regard him as their father/mentor & servant of Jesus. They need to repent & denounce TB Joshua & everything he taught them. But as long as they embrace this spirit & create little “copies” of TBJ deceptive ministry in their countries they will continue to be as false as he is.

    • That is what I also said. Not sure why nobody reacted on it ? They use the same format as is applied in SCOAN. It’s a format, not deliverance.

      But anyways at least there some agreement here about it. Thanks.

  12. @ TB Joshua Watch,

    You will soon find out why they delayed all these appeals and court cases from the collapse of the hostel.

    I already said this long time ago because I just saw it coming. They had this in mind for many years already and I “read” their minds there and then and I mentioned it here several times.

  13. well, i appreciate the advice being pointed out here. And i realize that its all coming from a place of concern. However, i beg to differ.

    first of all there is a difference between false anointing (which is from the devil) and corrupt anointing (which was originally from God but became corrupted because of unrepentant sin and rebellion).

    Examples of false anointing
    1. the girl possessed with the spirit of divination in Acts 16.
    2. pharaoh’s magicians who turned their rods into serpents Exodus 7:12

    Examples of corrupt anointing
    1. saul after he was rejected by God and his anointing corrupted by sin
    2. samson’s anointing was corrupted by his sinful lust for women and led to his downfall
    3. many kings of Israel and Judah who were anointed as kings had their anointings corrupted by worshiping baal and other false gods
    4. a lot of priests who were anointed to serve the Lord in the temple had their anointings corrupted by worshiping idols and sacrificing to them.

    when someone’s anointing becomes corrupt because of sin and rebellion, it causes a broken fellowship with God. The Spirit of God departs from them (breaks fellowship), but the anointing remains because God says his gifts and call are irrevocable Romans 11:29.
    That is why even after God rejected saul and broke fellowship with him, david continued to call him “the Lord’s anointed” until saul’s death. Israel continued to be the Lord’s anointed even during the times when God had broken fellowship with them because of sin. this fellowship was only restored when they repented and turned to God.

    secondly ordination does not come from a man of God but comes straight from God Himself. For some people ordination may be in the laying on of hands which is only symbolic 1Timothy 4:14. it does not mean the anointing comes from the one laying hands, but comes from God.

    thirdly you need to realize that members/viewers of emmanuel tv are not cult members of scoan. Most of them are truly born again christians on their way to heaven one day.

    There is no perfect minister of God anywhere in the world, there has never been one and there will never be one. and when God calls men/women into ministry, he is already aware that they are not perfect and will never be. that is why God is looking for willing and obedient servants, not perfect ones, since they do not exist. Just because a minster of God’s sins have never been exposed on a public square does not make them sinless. There is none righteous no not one Romans 3:10
    a minister of the gospel however is to be blameless, 1Timothy 3:2, and that means he should not be guilty of any scandals or ungodly conduct.

    having said that, let me make my point. Yes, TB Joshua still has the anointing of God in him, but it has become corrupt because of the sin and rebellion in his life. it is very evident that the Spirit of God has departed from TB Joshua. The only way he can restore this fellowship with God in his life is through repentance. the unfortunate thing about this whole thing is that, TB Joshua has not realized that the Spirit of God has departed from him. I believe that it is because he mistakes the anointing for the Spirit of God. Yes this anointing is still at work in scoan because God can’t revoke it Romans 11:29. any good thing that happens at scoan does not happen because of TB Joshua, but in spite of him. it is only by the grace of God. the evidence of this fact is when you see prostitutes walk away from the streets and turn their lives to Jesus, when witch-doctors lay down their charms and turn to the Lord Jesus, When marriages are restored and families reconciled.
    But the fruits of the corrupted anointing is evidenced by the cult he runs within his inside network of workers and disciples.

    Now this is where i disagree with this blog; i have heard it said many times on this blog that TB Joshua needs to repent and every member of scoan should leave scoan. well, as ideal as that sounds, it is never going to happen. like i mentioned earlier, viewers/members of scoan are not cult members since the cult operates behind the scenes. they are merely christians who happen to whorship God through emmanuel tv, and most of them have home churches in their countries. another problem is that TB Joshua is never going to repent, its very unfortunate, and i’m sorry to disappoint anyone, but it will never happen. he is too far gone!

    one thing i do know is that the Lord is going to have to take him out of the way. the people who worship at scoan are not TB Joshua’s people but they are God’s people. Mark my words when i say, God is going to take TB Joshua out of the way and put someone there who will bring scoan back to the cross of Jesus Christ, and she will be a force to be reckoned with. in short, TB Joshua needs to move out of the way and let Jesus take His rightful place in the hearts of scoan members.

    • T B Joshua was never called by God, nor did he receive an “anointing” from God which is now corrupted! The man has been a fraud and a liar from the very beginning, just like Satan is a liar and a murderer from the beginning. Do you know what they practice for “healing” and “deliverance” at SCOAN? It is called CHIGON, an ancient Chinese practice of healing and deliverance, which does not come from the Lord but from demons, just like divination. In fact, I was horrified to learn that what they do at SCOAN is nothing but just ordinary chigon covered with the name of Jesus. And, by the way, the Bible speaks of “another jesus,” who is not the real Jesus.
      Yes, Saul was anointed king and when he fell into sin, the Spirit of the Lord departed from him and he was tormented by demons, but TBJ was never called or anointed in the first place……..he has been a false prophet from the very beginning, using lies, deceit, manipulation, and riding on the backs of more intelligent people than himself to build for himself the Synagogue of Satan and to make himself known!

      Temitope Balogun Joshua is a big scammer and a fraud parading as a “man of God,” but in reality he is a man of Satan, just like Simon the Sorcerer in Acts 8.

    • @JustBloggingTruth

      TB Joshua falls in the first category you mentioned.
      From everything I’ve gathered, his beginnings were very explicit that he was a false prophet. He seems to have somewhat toned down over the years to appear ‘mainstream’. So when exactly did he ever have God’s anointing? He has been called by the same false Christ of Sun Myung Moon. It’s blasphemy to credit this [TBJ’s anointing] to God.

      • @general
        I agree, that’s the same trajectory I’ve noticed. Back in the 90’s things were much more overtly unchristian and voodoo-like. He’s cleaned up his act since, but the ideology and spirit behind it hadn’t changed.

    • @ Just blogging truth,

      Let me quote from you where I disagree.

      “thirdly you need to realize that members/viewers of emmanuel tv are not cult members of scoan. Most of them are truly born again christians on their way to heaven one day.”

      If they were born again and the Spirit would lead them, they would know, hence II Thessalonians 2 comes into place where they believe the lie instead and that does not give a pass to go to heaven. On the contrary. See what God is saying there later about it.

  14. JustBloggingTruth:

    You have a good point. Very interesting!

    But I have a problem with TB Joshua WHO has NO testimony of

    Repentance anywhere in his life?
    There is NO record of him being baptized in water or him baptizing anyone in water?
    So what spirit did he receive from the beginning?
    As well as all his un-biblical practices brought out by this blog.

    Further on he does not let his congregation partake in Holy Communion, with unleavened bread or wine/grape juice?
    Both Water Baptism as well as Communion – put the emphasis on the death and resurrection of Jesus.

    The Jews as well as the Muslims believe that Jesus is a Prophet, BUT He did not die or rose again from the grave?!?!
    The kernel of the Bible they throw away. That part where satan was defeated by God through what Jesus did on the cross and so does TB Joshua.

    The Bible says; “That God gives the Holy Spirit to him WHO obeys Him.”

    “We are witnesses of these things and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him” – Acts 5:32
    How to obey God?
    “Then JESUS came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and teaching them to obey everything I have Commanded you and surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age “ – Math 28:18-20


    When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles,

    “Brothers, what shall we do?”

    PETER replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the Name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
    The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
    With many other words he warned them and he pleaded with them, “Save yourselves from this corrupt generation.”
    Those who accepted his message were baptized and about three thousand were added to their number that day – Acts 2:37-41

    • @ Just Wonder,

      Precisely +1

      The core indeed is taken away and they all made him their idol and follow him on every word and they pass it off as waiting for instruction.

      But they know if they take part of the Blood of Jesus and His Body demons get in serious trouble spiritually. That is why they did it with Tea and his bread from his bakery he established with the ingredients lined out by him. Only to leave behind the communion for monkeys to eat from the other side of prayer mountain. Monkeys that eat the left overs of the communion ??? He literally instructed that when I was there on that day. It made right there and then question his genuiety of him coming from God.

  15. According to Scriptural TRUTH:

    There is no such thing as “corrupted Anointing” as bantered by many “ignorant, immature or unlearned” christians to cover up for their false prophets & pastors rebellious antichrist conduct against the WORD of God.

    Saul’s anointing was a kingly anointing like many other Israelite kings such as Jehu & co (2Kings chapter 9) who though were anointed still managed to fall into the sin of rebellion even as the anointing of priests which also saw many priests of God (Aaronites) like Korah & co fall into the sin of rebellion. This type of anointing is not the same as the PROPHETIC ANOINTING like that of Moses, Samson, Elijah, Elishah, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, John the Baptist, Peter, James, John, Paul & co.

    Hence the Israelites said as proverb in those days: Is Saul also among the prophets?

    1Samuel 10:1-12…And it came to pass, when all that knew him beforetime saw that, behold, he prophesied among the prophets, then the people said one to another, What is this that is come unto the son of Kish? Is Saul also among the prophets? And one of the same place answered and said, But who is their father? Therefore it became a proverb, Is Saul also among the prophets?

    The prophetic ministry as clearly stated in the scripture is to lead or show the sinners the WAY OF TRUTH into the Kingdom of God and The Father who is ALL knowing will not call anyone (prophet) who will eventually rebel against HIM and begin to lead HIS own people away from HIM back to eternal destruction. God Forbid!

    Hosea 12;13…And by a prophet the LORD brought Israel out of Egypt, and by a prophet was he preserved

    Acts 16:17…The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men [Paul & co] are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us [sinners] the way of salvation.

    So kingly or priestly anointing is a GIFT and as such when the recipients rebel against God that GIFT ceases to operate in them as in the SPIRIT departs from them just like the case of Samson. But that anointing is never ever CORRUPTED only WITHDRAWN from that rebel such as Saul who in his desperation sought for an alternative “corrupted anointing” of the devil from the witch an Endor wherein he died soon afterwards.

    1 Samuel 28:6-7…And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman []witch] that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at En-dor.

    But prophetic anointing is a CALL and those called are specially handpicked by the ALL KNOWING GOD who knows that they will never ever rebel against HIM and that even when they do err or sin, they will surely repent of of it as it was ALL of these anointed great men of God in the Bible from Abraham who lied about Sarah being his sister instead of wife; to Aaron the prophetic-priest who made and worshiped the golden calf; to Moses to disobeyed divine orders; to David to committed adultery / murder; to Peter who denied Jesus Christ and so on. In short the most prolific”sinner” amongst them was David and he too was also the most prolific “repentee” as well.

    Now compare such true men of God with these incessantly rebellious men of satan who never even see themselves as sinners let alone repent of their rebellion sins and the TRUTH is glaringly clear to KNOW that they were never called of God as it is truly written:

    Romans 11:29…For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance

    Therefore if you are anointed of God and become rebellious such anointing will depart from you like in the case of Saul and Samson not remain and continue to manifest in your ministry even when you are clearly seen and known to still be rebellious even unto death like Saul. But if you do repent it may manifest again like in the case of Samson.

    Therefore it is written: And no man taketh this honour [prophetic call] unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron…Hebrews 5:4!

    Therefore if God never called you as prophet He will never anoint you as a prophet; but if you privately call yourself as a false private prophet the devil may impart into you the DEVIL’S ANOINTING that permits you to perform false healings, miracles, signs & wonders in the name of another false “jesus christ” a.k.a antichrist; while you remain on your natural sin of rebellion against the Word of God that will surely destroy you in the lake of fire at the appointed time. Except of course you repent on time before becoming hardened in your rebellion beyond repentance like Balaam.

    2 Corintians 11:4…For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus []antichrist, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit[corrupted anointing], which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him

  16. Undertaker -(What a Name to choose?)

    “Be not deceived- God is not mocked, for whatsoever a man sow, that shall he also reap” – Galatians 6:7

    “Now Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took their respective fire pans and after putting fire in them, placed incense on it and offered STRANGE FIRE – ANOINTING before the LORD, which He had not commanded them and fire came out from the presence of the LORD and consumed them and they died before the LORD”.… Lev. 10:1-2.

  17. let me elaborate and hopefully clarify my point. it has been said many times that the devil uses mainly three things to bring down a man of God; money, pride and women. let me address women and pride.

    some readers of this blog may not agree with me on this but tbj has a sexual obsession with women. and it is very evident that this obsession started very early on in his ministry.
    when God anointed Elijah, we can all clearly witness how Elijah had total control of the anointing in his life. He could use it anyway he pleases. He could use it and direct it at anything or anyone he wanted to. It was to his own disposal. an example of this is when he directed his anointing to kill groups of men who brought a message to him. he could have ignored them or scared them off, but he chose to kill them with the anointing in his life. Elijah also sent a bear to tear up those innocent children, who were doing what children do, teasing and joking about his bald head. it was not God who killed those innocent children, God hates the shedding of innocent blood. it was elijah using his anointing to serve himself, and in this case pacify his bruised ego.
    there is an old video of tbj where he is ministering to people in his old church. this video proves how much tbj is sexually obsessed with women, it also displays the level of hatred he has for women. He always finds joy in humiliating women even in recent church services. this might have something to do with his culture, but i must say it is a disgrace in this day and age. anyway in this particular video, you can see that instead of ministering deliverance to women like he did the men in his church. he first wants to disgrace, dehumanize and humiliate them. he directs the anointing to hit the women’s private parts and they are wailing about and clutching their private areas even urinating on themselves. he then chased them around the church as they crawled about and being degraded among men, who by the way are way superior than women, and don’t deserve the same humiliation. now, how sick is that, he first has to make them suffer before they can be delivered, because according to tbj’s ministry women are to blame for men’s down fall. that’s why in his ministrations he can say to a man, “this woman has finished you”, as if the women had control of the demons. i watched this in total shock, wondering if he would have done the same thing to his own wife, mother or daughters. i would say his anointing has been corrupt from earlier on in his ministry. he has obviously been a man driven by lust and finding pleasure in humiliating others.i have seen many ministers of God direct the anointing to different parts of someone’s body in order to minister healing and deliverance but never to their private areas.
    now is it possible for God to allow ministers to do what they please with the anointing? Yes it is, he allowed Elijah to do what he pleased with it, but the minister has a responsibility of making sure that the anointing glorifies God. the anointing is subject to the anointed minister of God. God has entrusted them with the power/anointing. (1Cor 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints). the anointed minister has total control of the anointing during ministration, if he did not, there would be chaos and confusion in church, and people would try to blame the anointing of God instead of taking responsibility for their choices and actions. for instance, if God gives you a word of knowledge about someone, you have the choice to decide when the best time to give it is, and the best way to give it. you can do it in a way that blesses that person, which glorifies God, but you can also choose to do it in a hurtful way which will not glorify God. but either way the message is delivered. but everyone will answer to God one day.

    tbj’s pride is one of the reasons why i say, “he is too far gone”. he should have never allowed anyone to glorify him in anyway shape or form. all glory belongs to God. “thus saith the Lord” has now become “thus saith tbj”. prophecy has now become about glorifying himself. instead of giving glory to God for healing, he elevates himself as the most anointed minister of God. God says he will not give his glory to another, so He will take him out of the way of his glory, God is not going to allow him to continue polluting his name. God will raise someone to do an overhauling of the whole ministry and Jesus will take his rightful place. For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another. Isiah 48:11

    • @ JustbloggingTruth,

      All nice and well, whoever you are.

      But making women look silly is just their own doing and under the influence of Kundalini. Which is called Kriyas. Like wriggling and jumping up and down. Also peeing in the church on the floor. They do it for to make sensationalism and nothing else. Why I said this ?

      Because I have let many people and pastors watch these videos and they say that is not a manifestation of any anointing but of the Kundalini triggering off on back of the spine that guru’s do in initiating this. It’s called Shakti Pat.

      It causes terrible manifestation of shaking and wriggling and it has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit or Anointing at all. Only Jesus is Anointed. His Name Christ means the Anointed One. He has the seven fold anointing from Isaiah 11.

      TB Joshua has the counterfeit anointing of which Mike Oppenheimer, yes I have spoken to him and corresponded with him in the past when I just visited SCOAN told me that whatever way he acquired it, it’s not God’s power working through him at all.

      TB Joshua has found a way in meditation to open up all parts in his body to transfer the Kundalini through which especially with hands and through his feet also pushing it through his chest right where the solar plexus is.

      If you want to stop him doing this to you, punch him real hard there and he is done with “spewing” his powers to you which he breathes upon you. Because he knows that I know, he is hiding because he knows I will deliver him from his powers right there and then.

      The wisemen, ermm evangelists do exactly the same thing like that. Makandiwa does it like that, Magaya does it and Uebert Angel too. They have figured out how to project it on other people and the possibility to get out of their body with astral projecting and even enter inside of you if you are not aware what is actually happening.

    • @JustBloggingTruth

      The dehumanizing & humiliating is not only limited to women, he did it men as well. In some cases men have had to expose their private parts. His sexual obsession with women can’t explain this. The best explanation is 2Corinthians 11:4, “another Jesus”, “another spirit”, “another gospel”. His very healing techniques are not found in scripture, but are found in Eastern pagan practices. I get very nervous when christians say the power of God is at work in this confusion.

      I just think you are making a lot of unhealthy concessions for TBJ.
      We are told in Rev 13:13 that the beast will even make fire come down from heaven. His followers can appeal to your argument & make a convincing case that he too has God’s anointing because the only prophet who also made fire come from heaven was Elijah.

      And if TBJ is anointed by God then it means Sun Myung Moon is also anointed by God. Do you hold this view? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-5-CM93rIM

      • @General

        From what i have gathered about Samuel Akin Adewole, he seems to make statements about popular personalities regardless of who they are, to somehow promote the image of his church and elevate his own status as a “so called prophet” in nigeria. so, since he is clearly trying to promote his own status, he has no standing. he is no different than Adeboye who prints lies about tb joshua just so he can sell more newspapers and promote his church business and status. https://watchedtbjoshua.wordpress.com/2015/12/14/adeboye-redeemed-congress-and-the-tb-joshua-lies/
        Adewole and Adeboye both fall under the same category of using people’s names to promote their own ministries and interests. they are just trying to make themselves known and elevated by whatever means. so i personally dont give people like them any standing.

      • @JustBloggingTruth

        I think what you have described about Adewole is exactly the same as how TBJ operates. Which really is indicative of the same spirit at work. So it’s ok for TBJ to give prophecies about prominent personalities but it’s wrong when Adewole does the same.

        Adeboye = anti-TBJ = self promoting
        Adewole = pro-TBJ = self promoting
        It sounds like no body should be talking about TBJ then.

        Adewole may not have good standing with you, but he does have some standing with SCOAN and he did command some level of respect in many circles. He was awarded an honorary doctorate from the US, he didn’t need to use TBJ who was not so prominent in 1995, to achieve everything he did.

  18. @jesse

    kundalini is what was happening in Lakeland revival by Todd Bentley. but i have not seen any kundalini videos of people manifesting with demons confessing and being cast out.

    • @ JBT,

      No, No, No, what it really is called or takes place is transferring of demons from one person to another and let them be silent and dormant in the body until a certain time and then come up again.

      That is why you see some people that I knew and I speak from experience go back to SCOAN again because they all of a sudden have a different or another so called demon and need deliverance again.

      I have seen several like this in the Branches. They always have some sort of demon somewhere that need to be barfed out. When I was watching it, I thought “again”, why they are “possessed” again..

      SCOAN has nice explanation for it. They blame the visitor gone back into sin again and that is why they are possessed again. But I have observed and some of those people visiting my home and I theirs and they do not come over they are such sinners they are getting possessed again. And it is always something different.

      This also for me contributes that they are faking it, or to draw attention to themselves or they are just instructed to do so because they get a hand out to study or work somewhere from the “philanthropist” TB Joshua.

      People are willing to do things from whom they eat their bread get gain and get shelter from under the religious drivel they spout out of how great SCOAN is.

      Nobody is saying anything bad about the Red Cross or Salvation Army is it now ? That is what I am saying.

      Money, shelter, food, buys anybodies mouth to sing praises about their personal saviours and well doers. That is why most people are corrupt and keep lying and peddling themselves forward on interested in their own progress.

      That is the total reason why they do Charity in SCOAN now. To cover up their own guilt before God and mankind. To say loookkkk what we all do !!!!

      You even have people making 30 links online of how great SCOAN is because of……not thinking about the fact that they were lied to for years about illegal building and without building permits and what else they could do to bypass protocol and the Law.

      That is why they keep carrying on because they know nobody is going to pick up after they would be put away is it now. So they leave it into place because of filthy lucre and bribery.

      They think that is doing God a favour and glorifying themselves in the meantime with it and pass it off as doing well with the Name of Jesus attached to it and religious drivel pasted on it.

  19. @Just Wonder

    I don’t think anyone has ever heard of TB Joshua confessing/repenting. he has claimed to be infallible, because of pride. so i dont think he would want anyone to think he has any sins that he needs to repent of. even if he repented in secret, we would never know about it because he wants people to believe that he is perfect because he thinks he is god. the bottom line is that tbj is too corrupt to even appreciate the simplicity of christian life. he is too far gone. and unfortunately there is a lot of ministers like him who are just full of pride.

  20. @General

    i am not making concessions for tb joshua, i don’t even think he belongs on the pulpit. the bible clearly disqualifies him as a minister of the gospel. i really believe its only a matter of time, because God will not put up with His Name being mocked and his gospel compromised like this for ever. God will do an overhauling of scoan. is anything too hard for the Lord?

    • @JustBloggingTruth

      I understand your stance about TBJ, it’s your premise I’m worried about & I don’t think it’s neither accurate nor viable. With a premise like that concessions are bound pop up somehow, whether unwittingly or deliberately, which often leads to theological/doctrinal error. Meaning; any piece of evidence that may suggest he was never called, is always countered with strange, erroneous & sometimes incredibly goofy arguments, all to defend the idea that he is called & this is God’s power at work.

  21. @ jesse

    “If you want to stop him doing this to you, punch him real hard there and he is done with “spewing” his powers to you which he breathes upon you. Because he knows that I know, he is hiding because he knows I will deliver him from his powers right there and then.”


    he better watch out then!

  22. @ To All

    Moses was an anointed man of God. when God told moses to speak to the rock, out of his own anger and pride he instead chose to strike the rock in direct contradiction of God’s command. moses clearly defied God and followed his own agenda, but he still got the job done.
    did the anointing in moses’ life not work because he disobeyed God? did the anointing in moses’ life not work because what he did was not “christian-like” or “scriptural”? did God take his anointing away because moses defied God?
    No, not at all. moreover the children of Israel did not call moses demon possessed because he started whacking the rock instead of speaking to it like he was commanded to. they saw a mad man doing “unscriptural” things. they watched as he disobeyed God and not sanctifying His Holy Name, but they knew that the annointing was still of God. Yes, “The Anointing of God in the hands of a mad man”, yet God did not take the anointing away (Rom 11:29 irrevocable gifts and call). but he took the mad man out of the way. he still had to answer to God, and he was forbidden from entering into the promised land.
    if God told tb joshua to use the anointing to lay hands on people, and he instead decides to whack them with the same anointing, thereby disgracing them first. it means just like moses, he used his own agenda which was not inspired by God. did he get the job done? yes, but he is still going to have to answer to God for his disobedience and defiance.
    does the way tb joshua use his anointing, honor God? No, from where i’m standing he seems to be caught up with honoring himself instead of God.
    The Lord was furious with moses because he did not sanctify the Name of the Lord before Israel, likewise the Lord is furious with tb joshua for not sanctifying his name. the Lord who disqualified moses and took him out of the way, will do likewise in the case of tb joshua.

    • All i can say is” let us not fall into a trick of taking God’s position ” being judges”. Its too big and honestly not our business. I believe God would be pleased if we can engage on how to serve his kingdom better! Merry christmas!


    • So Domi DG,

      Where is Satan then ? We are only talking about Jesus and about Bible scriptures and prayers to show you what is wrong.

      We are not quoting like Satan in twisting the Word of God, we print it here as it is written. Satan always twists it.

      For e.g. Genesis 3 Where it is says “Did God really say” Or more accurately Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

      That is not what God said. Nor do we say this, we take what God actually said and apply.

      Another thing is where Satan takes Jesus upon the Temple Mount. Satan said:

      Matthew 4:6 and said to Him, “If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down; for it is written, ‘HE WILL COMMAND HIS ANGELS CONCERNING YOU’; and ‘ON their HANDS THEY WILL BEAR YOU UP, SO THAT YOU WILL NOT STRIKE YOUR FOOT AGAINST A STONE.'” 7Jesus said to him, “On the other hand, it is written, ‘YOU SHALL NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST.'” 8 Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory;…9 and he said to Him, “All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me.” 10 Then Jesus said to him, “Go, Satan! For it is written, ‘YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.'”…

      You see there is a difference, we Agree here with Jesus because He quotes it correctly to Satan and Satan is shown to be a liar.

      But we put up here the facts, the evidence, the truth and what really happened. And you are here to say, Yes this is Satan speaking.

      Tell me once more again:

      Where is the #MH370 ? While TB Joshua said it would be found after the week of 15th of March 2014 ?
      Where are the #Chibokgirls ? While TB Joshua said they would be released immediately ? If he was truly a man of God ?
      Has Ebola been eradicated by TB Joshua ? Please show us evidence where that is happening with the “anointed water” ?
      How come that nobody is capable to show evidence that the Lockheed Martin C130 had a infrared laser gun on board than the funny stories your false private prophet is hanging up and his followers ?
      If there was controlled demolition, why could people have access to a hostel for weeks to put this into action with hundreds of people around and no CCTV evidence is there that someone was carrying such material in and out ?
      -God did not command TB Joshua to build any hostel at all or other buildings that were illegal and without building permit.
      -TB Joshua claiming he was 15 months in the womb of his mum in one video and 21 in another. Which one is the real one ? His mother is dead, so we can’t ask her to testify.

      Where is Satan speaking here in the above questions you can’t answer ? Where is Satan here ? Where ?

      You are totally deceived by your own doing and beliefs and religious drivel like all followers of SCOAN. Thank you !

      All you are is SCAM, 419 and Liars ! Period !

  24. @Justbloggingtruth,
    He distinction between the anointing is not a tidy one and is highly subjective.

    What would you call a minister of God who after the call resorts to witchcraft to boos their ‘power’?

    I want to focus on the CULT tag. One of the best and simplified books I have on the subject is Churches that Abuse

    Click to access Churches_that_Abuse.pdf

    The book gives characteristics of abusive churches. I believe the distinction between a cult and a normal church is the extent/intensity to which these practices are manifested

    Main characteristics
    1. Misuse of spiritual authority
    2. Use of fear,guilt and threats
    3. Elitism
    4. Rigid lifestyles
    5. Dissent/questions are strongly discourages
    5. Exiting is a nightmare

    I can imagine that even in a cult, the manifestation of these depends of how far you have gone inside

    Taking SCOAN, a YouTube viewer is clearly immune from most of these and we can safely argue that even if SCOAN was positively identified as a cult, many followers would not be cult members. So in a way you are right. Not all SCOAN members are cult members.

    Please study the book and measure it up against SCOAN and see if you would classify it differently.

    It is true NOBODY is perfect, but this is no excuse to excuse blatant heresies. I’d think consistent and pervasive use of deception by SCOAN makes them a heretical group.

    Allow me to digress.
    I’m from Kenya and there was an incident recently where some Islamist terrorists attacked a bus and Muslims inside the bus gave their hijabs to the non-Muslims so as to make it difficult to weed out non-Muslims for execution. Last time they did this they executed over 50.

    Note after separating non-Christians they force them to recite shahada and those who fail are executed

    We were discussing this event with my friends and we focused on the Christians. Did they deny Jesus by pretending to be Muslims?

    Our discussion went into how we would react. Talk is cheap and of course we have biblically ‘correct’ courses of action.

    I said the Christians somewhat denied Jesus, but they would end in hell if Peter the apostle will end in hell for denying Christ.

    But we find Peter some 42 days after baptized of the Holy Ghost preaching and converting thousands on Pentecost.

    Question is, which people will Jesus deny before the Father because they denied Him?

    The answer I think is those actively and continually rejecting Christ.

    Here is the point; the frequency of an activity is what distinguishes a sinner from a believer. I believe the frequency and variety of deception executed by SCOAN is what marks them out as overly deceptive.

    They are not likely to stop as this is their main thing. So without being skeptical I doubt SCOAN can reform. This is why I support those who believe in coming Out of SCOAN and not praying for reforms.

  25. JustBloggingTruth;

    I totally agree that TB Joshua is too ………………. far gone. Should he repent now, it will be on account of his life and since he is running away from the truth of a meager court case, he will definitely not die for Jesus or The Truth. Furthermore he is going to have to repent publicly and not somewhere in secret, because his ministry is a public one.

    Secondly, I do not think you can compare TB Joshua with any of God’s Prophets in the Bible. We know that those Prophets received an anointing from God. We do not know where tbj got his ‘anointing’ from, since he did not and is not obeying the Word of God. Also all the sins of the Biblical Prophets and men of God are open and written down in the Bible. Nowhere are their sins hidden like tbj’s case or have they repented in secret?

    It is dangerous to have your testimony written in the Bible, because it will appear there – warts and all.

    Remember Mathew 7-
    Jesus said, that the false prophets of the last days, will be able to do great miracles, prophecy and even drive our demons and that nogal in His Name, but Jesus will say to them; “Go away, I do not know you, you workers of iniquity or lawlessness.” So tbj’s miracles etc. means nothing. It does not proof that his ‘anointing’ comes from God or came from God.

    • i must say i am shocked to hear you say i should not use the bible. wow! that caught me off guard. what else is there besides the precious Word of God which should be the only thing we use. we should compare everyone and everything to scripture alone and judge according to the bible alone. For me the bible is the highest, final and most absolute authority of God on earth. and there is no other standard of comparison that can come close to the word of God. The Bible can be and should be trusted as God says He has magnified His Word above His Name. Psalm 138:2
      i’m sorry, i guess it was my fault for making assumptions that i was communicating with christians who hold only the word of God as their standards. i was not aware that some people’s views on this christian principle would differ. with that realization, i guess i have nothing else to add, because we will never agree on anything then, since my only standard and go to book is the Word of God. I am sorry for a total waste of your time.

      stay blessed and merry Christmass!

      • @JustBloggingTruth

        You have completely twisted what @Just Wonder said.
        What @Just Wonder meant is this: TB Joshua & Biblical prophets are simply not comparable. Another example of this would be: you cannot compare Criss Angel & Jesus Christ, even though Criss once walked on water too; they are simply not comparable. This is the meaning of @Just Wonder’s post, TB Joshua & Biblical prophets are not comparable and I agree with this. You have taken one instance of disobedience at Meribah-Kadesh by God’s faithful servant Moses and you equated that with TBJ’s ±25 years of week-in week-out deliberate deceptions, manipulations, lies etc. This analysis is deeply flawed, a major doctrinal errors flow from this. But for you to suggest we are not christians who hold only the word of God as their standards…there’s element of mischief there because that very same post actually pointed you to the word of God in Matthew 7.

      • @JustBloggingTruth,
        You sound like a sober and honest guy from your posts so I wonder why you suddenly make such blatantly false allegations against @Just Wonder

        You don’t have to agree and run with anything you read here or anywhere but you can certainly do better than deliberately misrepresent somebody who was not even opposing the entirety of your views.

        I also smell a whiff of pride and you sound irritated that @Just Wonder respectfully differed with you over your ideas.

        This blog is not a pulpit where you unleash a sermon to a chorus of shouts of amen. Your and my ideas will be examined right here as this is the nature of a public blog

        Have a wonderful and safe Christmas

      • if i have misunderstood, then thank God. that’s a relief, because i was kind of worried.

        Just Wonder said:

        “Secondly, I do not think you can compare TB Joshua with any of God’s Prophets in the Bible”.

        Well, if someone in today’s church claims to be a prophet, then they should be judged and compared to other prophets in the bible.
        if someone in today’s church claims to be a pastor/shepherds, bishop, or evangelist, they should likewise be judged and compared to pastors/shepherds,bishops and evangelists in the bible. I believe its the only way for us to know if they are true or not using biblical standards.
        i personally can’t think of any other standard than the bible to use. i don’t understand why anyone would be offended by that.
        so i rest my case and apologize for the misunderstanding.

      • chriss angel did not walk on water, this video reveals how his magic tricks of flying and walking on water were staged before the audience arrived. he was actually walking on glass, carefully concealed to hide revealing angles. and the flying trick was done by a industrial crane suspension.

      • @JustBloggingTruth

        The point is not whether Criss Angel’s magic is real or fake. The same is the case with TBJ’s miracles, whether their fake or real is irrelevant, it still doesn’t prove his anointing is from God. Both these men are mimicking what’s in the Bible even though it’s clear God is not involved and therefore are not comparable [not similar, not equivalent, not equal] with Biblical prophets. This is the point being made here.

        I do believe real magic exists and it is satanic/demonic/diabolic. From what I’ve seen Criss Angel seems to be using real magic.

  26. DOMI DG,

    I pray that the day will come where you will understand more that 10 lines, for the salvation, healing and deliverance of yourself in body, soul and spirit..

  27. The Scripture Says:

    Psalm 103:7…He made known his ways unto Moses, his acts unto the children of Israel

    The Israelites only sought to KNOW the Miraculous Acts of God both in Egypt and in the wilderness like the Red Sea division and Manna from heaven so they could not commune one-on-one with God like Moses but stood a far while Moses did the communing on their behalf. .

    But Moses KNEW and UNDERSTOOD the WAYS of God meaning: His manner, attitude, feeling, behavior, character, mood, pleasure, vexation, joy, sadness, disappointment, grief, sorrow, happiness, anger, expectation etc, and most importantly the MIND of God.

    This is the essence of the Holy Bible from Genesis to Revelation to make God’s children know the God’s Ways even as many of the holy prophets in the Bible did, so they can COMMUNE one-on-one with GOD as 100% OBEDIENT servants of God just like the holy angels.

    This simply put means that for you to be able to operate as a great prophet of God with great responsibilities of the Kingdom purpose of God on earth, you must first have your MOUNTAIN TRAINING experience ONE-ON-ONE with the HOLY SPIRIT mainly on one subject of: OBEDIENCE TO THE WORD & WILL OF GOD!

    Like Abraham in the desert plain of Mamre, Moses on Mount Sinai, Elijah on Mount Carmel, John the baptist in the wilderness of Jordan, Paul in the “wilderness” of Arabia and even Jesus Christ had to pass through the same process with His 40 days & night in the wilderness.

    For without OBEDIENCE you will surely fall & fail on the WHEEL OF REBELLION like King Saul. So God does not empower or anoint you to work for HIM on any such important mission on earth without first being BROKEN on the WHEEL OF OBEDIENCE just like Peter was after having denied Jesus Christ three times.

    Moses was so tempestuous, he killed an Egyptian for assaulting a Hebrew, he even broke the the Ten Commandment Stone personally hand written by God because of his anger of seeing the golden calf worship by his people. Imagine expressing your anger by TEARING UP a HOLY BIBLE specially PRESENTED to you directly by the HAND OF GOD from heaven, simply because you saw your church members worshiping an idol in the church. Now that’s Moses for you!

    But by and large the man Moses did well for he only managed to DISOBEY God just ONCE to incur that severe consequence of denial into the promised land after 40 years of waiting. But the Israelites during that time disobeyed God for the umpteenth time till the Holy Ghost was provoked and similarly denied them access into the same promised land. Now can you compare Moses with these false prophets who rebel (not disobey) against God again and again 24/7, 365 days of the year?

    Hebrews 3:7-11…Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not KNOWN MY WAYS. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest [promised land]…).

    Of a truth, the WAYS of God to those believers who only know the ACTS of God may seem strange because they are unused to it.

    Isaiah 28:21-22…For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his STRANGE WORK; and bring to pass his act, his STRANGE ACTS…

    But the WAYS of God are all written in the Scripture for us to read, understand and follow. But whatsoever “way of God” we perceive that is not in line with the written WORD is NOT of God. Period!

    Ezekiel 36: 26-27…A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit [anointing] will I put within you: and I will take away the [rebellious] stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a [broken] heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


    Galatians 1:15-20… But when it pleased God, who separated me [prophet] from my mother’s womb, and CALLED me by his grace, To reveal his Son [WAYS] in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into ARABIA [WILDERNESS], and returned again unto Damascus. Then after THREE YEARS I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days. But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord’s brother. Now the things which I write unto you, behold, before God, I lie not…

    Meaning that per adventure, if a true prophet of God wishes to use the perfect gift and “Anointing of God” which cannot be “corrupted” to aid bank robbers to carry out a successful bank heist, the SPIRIT will not MOVE. Period!

    If that erring prophet persists in his sinful application of the “anointing”, the SPIRIT will eventually WITHDRAW until he repents and acts in line with the divine Word & Will of God.


    Therefore it is superfluous and preposterous to CLAIM out of ignorance of the WAYS of God, that a true prophet of God can ALWAYS control the SPIRIT of God who exclusive owns the power or ANOINTING of God that performs all the true miraculous ACTS of God both on earth and in heaven.

    1 Corinthians 13:32…And the spirits [anointing]of the prophets are subject to the [obedient] prophets…

    Therefore means that the anointing of God MOVES in the OBEDIENT prophet of GOD who MOVES according to the WORD of God and WILL of God and not according to his own WAYS of fleshly and sinful lusts. If he continues in such, the SPIRIT of God will surely smite, chastise and correct him to amend his WAYS before God, lest it becomes like the PERVERSE WAYS of Balaam the false prophet of Baal the Antichrist!

    Numbers 22:31-32…Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face. And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand thee, BECAUSE THY WAY IS PERVERSE BEFORE ME [GOD]…


    A Personalized Name,
    A Personalized Job Description,
    A Personalized Scripture:

    [on the endtime mission to spiritually slay and UNDERTAKE the burial of the antichrist before My SON finally returns to cremate him in the Eternal Lake of Fire]?

    [The Undertaker]…

    This is how the prophet Isaiah revealed to us how we’re all assigned our various divine destinies, missions & assignments “eons ago” in the secret place or land of the “unborn babies” where God after creating us as human souls during the 7 days of creation, continues to keep us deep in the spiritual realm of the bowels or “lowest parts” of the earth before we are finally born or delivered one after the other into this sinful physical world via our mother’s womb that immediately contaminates us with sin during our period of pregnancy or conception.

    Psalm 140:13-17… For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother’s womb [conception]. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made [created]: marvellous are thy works; and that my [human] soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought [molded] in the lowest parts [bowels] of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book [of divine missions & assignments] all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them. How precious also are thy thoughts [divine destiny] unto me, O God! how great is the sum [fulfillment] of them!

    Psalm 51:5…5 Behold, I was shapen [impregnated] in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

    Therefore the Undertaker must “undertake” the task that he “volunteered” before he was born, to be sent to accomplish and fulfill on earth by the Grace, Power and Spirit of His Word as it is written:

    Ezekiel 28:9-10…Wilt thou [antichrist] yet say before him that [spiritually] slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a [mortal] man, and no God, in the hand of him [Undertaker] that slayeth thee. Thou shalt die [in the lake of fire] the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD…

    Revelation 19:19-20…And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him [SON OF GOD] that sat on the horse, and against his [angelic] army. And the beast was taken [captured], and with him the false prophet [antichrist] that wrought [false] miracles before him, with which he deceived them [the world] that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive [cremated] in a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

    Revelation 20:10…And the devil that deceived them was cast into the [eternal] lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [antichrist] are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


    When and how this over 3,000 year old Bible prophecy of the endtime QUEEN ESTHER and her ELECT BRETHREN will finally be FULFILLED?

    Psalm 45: 9-17:-
    9 Kings’ daughters were among thy honourable women: upon thy right hand did stand the QUEEN [ESTHER] in gold of Ophir.
    10 Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear; forget also thine own people, and thy father’s house;
    11 So shall the King [of kings] greatly desire thy beauty [obedience]: for he is thy Lord; and worship thou him.
    12 And the daughter of Tyre shall be there with a gift; even the rich among the people shall intreat thy favour.
    13 The king’s daughter is all glorious within: her clothing is of wrought gold.
    14 She shall be brought unto the King in [bridal] raiment of needlework: the [one, four, four elect brethren] virgins her companions that follow her shall be brought unto thee.
    15 With gladness and rejoicing shall they [firstfruits] be brought [raptured]: they shall enter into the king’s palace [White Throne].
    16 Instead of thy fathers shall be thy children, whom thou mayest make princes in all the earth.
    17 I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee for ever and ever.

    Understanding the mission of Queen Esther against Haman in the Bible will help but trying to decode this scriptural mystery is pointless for now as it is strictly and only for those:

    James 1:17-18 & 3:14-15…Every GOOD GIFT and every PERFECT GIFT [ANOINTING] is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of FIRST FRUITS of his creatures…and lie not against the truth. This WISDOM [CORRUPTED ANOINTING] descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish…


    Therefore to FULFILL such a very important divine Biblical mission one must first know it by the deep revelation and scriptural understanding of the SPIRIT!

    2 Timothy 4:5… make full proof of thy ministry.

    1 Corinthians 2:10…10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things [mysteies] of God.




    • Undertaker,

      Thank you for your effort in this lengthy explanation everything. I appreciate the spirit in which you did wrote it. I actual were surprised in your spot on insight. Thanks.

  29. Hi vooke’

    I was looking for these songs of Jim Reeves on the Internet yesterday, but did not have enough time to search. I am going to save them. Blessed songs. Thanks.

  30. Remember that Jesus was not actually born on Christ’s Mass. This is again a Roman institution.

    The actual time of the birth of Jesus Christ.

    Luke 1:5
    5 In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah,
    who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah…
    1 Chronicles 24:1-19

    3 With the help of Zadok a descendant of Eleazar (the priest Aaron’s son) and Ahimelech a descendant of Ithamar (the priest Aaron’s son),
    David separated them into divisions for their appointed order of ministering.

    10 ……… the eighth division to Abijah…….

    19 This was the priest’s appointed order of ministering when they entered the temple of the Lord, according to the regulations prescribed for them by their forefather Aaron, as the Lord, the God of Israel, had commanded him.

    Now we start to count to find out when the eighth division was on the Hebrew calendar?

    The first month:
    Exodus 12:1-2
    The Lord said to Moses and Aaron in Egypt,
    “This month is to be for you the first month, the first month of your year”.
    The Passover sacrifice of the Lamb.
    The first month of the Hebrew calendar is March/April, Passover, on our Roman calendar.
    1 Chronicles 24: 18
    States that there were 24 divisions per year-thus 2 per month, as there is 12 months per year.
    So Abijah’s division was the eighth division, which makes it the last two weeks of the fourth month of the Hebrew calendar.
    Counting roughly from the beginning of March, 8 divisions (2 per month) brings us to the last two weeks of June (when the angel appeared to Zachariah).
    Luke 1: 26-28
    26-28 In the six month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, which was roughly December of that year, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”
    Count 9 months from there (December of that year), brings us to September/October the next year which is the Feast of Tabernacles time on the Hebrew calendar.
    All the Feasts of God were fulfilled in Jesus. Tabernacles/Sukkot when He was born. Pentecost/Shavuot when the Holy Spirit was poured out and Passover when He died on the cross of Calvary and shed His blood, for the remission of our sins and His resurrection from the dead after that.
    He was born on the Feast of Sukkot or Tabernacles, as it is now know, in a Sukkah or stable next to the full inn. See picture.
    It was and is still made by the Israelites from palm leaves to remember God’s provision for them during the wilderness wonderings and their sheep and lambs stayed with them in the Sukkots.
    Their little lambs were like their pets!

    Jesus gave us a command to remember His death and resurrection on Passover through the communion meal and not His birthday.

  31. Dear All,

    I believe I have found the key of TB Joshuas powers and of others.

    It also shows why his interest was in Columbia, Mexico, India, Indonesia, Israel and other countries that practice this in the ancient times.

    I know it is a long article but everybody take your time and you will see that this is an insight of what is happening and his shamanism as well of the others who operate like him. Magaya, Makandiwa, Uebert Angel, and others.

    Just check it out and see what it says.

      • It was a torture going through all that.
        The point is mushroom cults of the Americas spread to India and Asia and Europe.

        Amanita muscaria and TB Joshua…what’s the connection

      • The connection is sacrifices to acquire (more) powers.

        And his personal quest to go to only these countries where these powers have a stronghold and are prolific practiced in the past and present.

        They would say for “deliverance” but to establish more of the stronghold to himself. The mushroom also causes visions in those who practice this application. The possibility of forced seeing things in the spiritual realm with Shamanism.

  32. I find the Gathering parallels interesting.
    I sometimes wonder how SCOAN & fans view groups run similarly to SCOAN, but seem to not mention them. I’m sure there are many preacher-focused exclusivist-type groups even in Africa with similar theology, right?

  33. I thought he won’t be able to resist his new year services!

    Watch for the new charm that will be introduced by him for 2016!

    • “This coming Sunday 3rd January 2016, the first Sunday of the year, we believe God will release T.B. Joshua to join us in the service.”

      God ‘will release TB Joshua’?
      From Tartarus?

    • it looks like he taped this at his prayer mountain. when i was there early 2014. they were building it up into a beautiful retreat, some type of a spiritual retreat for emmanuel tv partners. the disciples gave us a tour of the place and showed us different structures where there will be different types of hotel type rooms to accommodate families, couples and individuals from all over the world. there was a big restaurant and other hotel/lodge like amenities being built. although still under construction you could tell that it was going to pass for a 4 or 5 star lodge/retreat. it looks like its now complete. you can actualy see some boats driving by behind where he is sitting.

      • That is kind of peculiar. It seemed to me that this evening I felt the urge to check out on Google Earth and looking around where the Prayer Mountain was only to discover that…… Don’t know why I did that, only to see your post right now. JBT

        Prayer Mountain is now completely opened up. And has two islands in the middle with white sand. I have been on one on of them.


        You can see it here:

        Yes, that is all possible, WHEN THEY GIVE YOU MONEY ! And it is all done with deceiving you by using Tourism.

        Ecclesiastes 10:18 Through indolence the rafters sag, and through slackness the house leaks. 19 Men prepare a meal for enjoyment, and wine makes life merry, and money is the answer to everything. <~~~~

        It’s a business, not a church. They have been looking around in Mexico where they have the most beautiful resorts on earth.

        How can it be a command from God to do this ? Tourism ? Resort ?

      • And if you look at the place from Google Earth, you can see it is a snake/lizzard head. Close to the Airport. Very convenient to go for a holiday.

        Business, not a church. With the Name of Jesus attached and ridiculous demon interrogations as a business model.

        While we should follow the example of Jesus. Demons were/are willing to speak but Jesus told them to be silent.

        Conversing with demons is not necessary for a person’s deliverance. Jesus cast them out without doing so.
        Demons come from the father of lies.
        God is a jealous God and we must not look to any other spirit for knowledge.
        Depending upon demons for information, discourages depending upon the gifts of His Spirit.
        We have access to all truth through the Holy Spirit.
        Relying on demons allows them to direct the ministry.
        Demons do not produce faith. The Bible does not say faith comes by hearing demons.
        It is inconsiderate of the person needing deliverance and can leave him feeling shame, confusion and defilement.
        It prolongs the deliverance.
        It opens the door to pride by demons pacifying the deliverer.
        It opens the door to deception by gaining private information from demons. Quote: “If one communicates with evil spirits, he may become convinced that he has gained special information about the devil’s hierarchy, the devil’s plans, or other revelation knowledge. If a person accepts such information and teaches it as truth, then he has fallen into deception.”
        Conversing with demons is forbidden in scripture. Quote: “If one becomes a communication link with the demonic realm, he becomes a spiritist, and listens to doctrines of devils.” 1 Timothy 4:1-2 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.”

        A person who asks questions of a demon is a consulter of familiar spirits.

        Deuteronomy 18:10-12 & Leviticus 20:6-7

        If a deliverer is making requests or demands upon a demonic spirit within a person, he is a consulter with familiar spirits. The Hebrew word consulter means to require, make requests or demand. Familiar spirits is an unusual word meaning a mumbling hollow sound, like a ventriloquist. These sounds are spirits using the person’s voice to speak through the person.

        When people are forced to be a channel for demonic interrogation, it is an unloving, shameful and defiling thing to do to them. Jesus delivered out of loving compassion. It is a clear violation of scripture to violate their will and command demons to speak through them as channels.

    • Happy new year everyone!

      Thanks for posting that. A couple of things I noticed: 1) bright TV lights and mosquitoes are not a good mix 2) there were a huge number of strangely placed edits, I think the video editors had to work very hard to patch together something vaguely coherent from his ramblings.

      Interesting comments on the development of prayer mountain.

  34. Luke 17 Jesus said to his disciples: “Things that cause people to stumble are bound to come, but woe to anyone through whom they come. 2 It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble. 3 So watch yourselves.
    This is what TB Joshua has talked about in this message, – is he aware the he is talking about himself?
    I personally know of many people who have stumbled because of their involvement with SCOAN.

    My prayer for 2016 is that this is the year when God releases all those people and this is the year when God’s grace and truth is displayed at SCOAN for real, with no requirement for any donation, with the freedom to question, with the outpouring of God’s love from the humble sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. Nothing to do with holy water, nothing to do with prayer lines, nothing to do with the medium of Immanuel TV but all about the people experiencing the reality of the love of God for themselves, one to one, personally within their heart.

    • I hope that your prayer will be answered. But if a person exercises his or her will in not to go, I believe God respects that and does not force His will upon them.

      There is still another thing that is known from Scripture about that:

      7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
      9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

      He has been out of sight to be involved to make it to a business and resort. A pilgrim place.

      The same as the Catholics are doing with Lourdes and Nevers, Bavaria, Rome, Glastonbury, Padre Pio, Lady Fatima and Many other Marian apparitions.

      He will always have attached to his life the many people that died in the Hostel of which God never commanded him to built and now here he is going again…..

      That is why he had these prayers for “Good morning”, business, etc etc.

      When you have plenty money you can do anything with your advisers and how to invest.

      Business, not a church.

  35. My New Years message to you TB Joshua;

    “Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother and then come and present your offering.…Matthew 5:23-24.

    I have something against you and so have many others!

    The fact that you broke up my family, where there were NO problems, in the Name of Jesus and pretending that you have nothing to do with it – is offensive. You are offending me and my family and friends and many others. When are you going to remember that people have something against you and make right with them!!!!?????

    Are you trying to get the +/- 120 dead people etc and their families that you offended off your back by ‘releasing’ them?


  36. I also went to look on Google Earth at how the new ‘prayer mountain’ looks like. Thanks for placing it Jesse, because I struggled. It has totally changed again. Tbj’s message is again totally twisted. It is a Nigerian way of thinking – he will not go and make right with the people he offended, but he will set them free from a spirit of offence, while still carrying on with his offences. Everyone here had a good laugh at his message. Amazing. Fake and twisted is NOT the word.

    The following verse came to mind again.

    He is busy with a business and not a church!

    “Unlike so many, we do not peddle the Word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, as those sent from God” – 2 Corinthians 2:17

  37. and by the way, what a place to build again! That ‘prayer mountain’ is in the middle of a river? It was made a march by the Mangrove trees, which TB Joshua removed, to make a lake. I mean? The ground is soggy and the sand were brought in by tbj from the beach and it is in the middle of an ancient river. This is just another accident looking for a place to happen and where are the Nigerian government’s approved plan? I wonder.

    • @Just Wonder,
      What is the prayer mountain from Google Earth?
      Is it all those structures inside the water body?

    • @Just Wonder,
      Please help me understand,
      The two round and whitish structures would be the ‘shrines’/huts in the clip, right?

      What exactly does he own over there, the structures or everything including the water body?

      • That whole place was full of buildings and rondawels (round huts) and ‘prayers’ were prayed everywhere on that piece of ground, but yes those round huts where were the elect prayed. The big hut in the water, could only be reached by boat and apparently had healing waters or something like that. One of the islands had Jesus and the disciples on praying. You can see it on one of the photos. You had to be special in his eyes to get in there.

        The other square building (roof green and blue) was where his guests and who knows who could go and pray, but only with his permission. He also lived there later on. No one could enter that area without his permission. It was stickily monitored. The big church is about 10 minutes drive from the ‘prayer mountain’. that was another strange thing to me. The fact that you could not pray anywhere in his church, only on ‘prayer mountain’ and then only when he allowed it! You were not free to pray whenever you wanted to and I only realized afterwards that they never checked to which religion you belonged. So you could go and pray there to which ever god you wanted to?

        That wooden footpath that the people are walking on is the entrance to the place. That small square wooden building in front of them to the right, I think, was his little house when he started as a poor Nigerian boy in the swamps praying to allah?. Directly opposite it, on the other side of the path was a emblem saying; “Allah is God”. I saw it with my own eyes. It is such a pity I did not take photos of that! They removed it later.

        And to whom that piece of swamp belongs to, only they know. I wonder if the government even wants it?

      • I can concur with Just Wonder about this.

        I walked around in these areas and that building Just Wonder is talking about is monitored by disciples and especially women. You can’t get inside there. I have tried.

        There are also fish inside the waterbody who come to the surface and “look” at you, no kidding and then go off in the deep very slowly.

        Yes there is this statue in the middle of one island/rock depicting Jesus.

        Exodus 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:…….

        Oh well, so much for being the most “famous” prophet of god who does not even know you should not make any graven image, right ?

        We thank God He took us out of it all and their lies. Still the leaders of the U.K. Branch are there after all this and probably fighting hard to re-establish this hell hole again. But they are retired so they really don’t have to look for a job in the normal world is it now ?

      • and Vooke, I think what you mean with the white structure on Google earth – the new place. Those round white circles are sea sand that they made islands of.

  38. He is still rambling about offenses and being ‘wrongfully accused’. He should not take offense but rather he should take to the dock and defend himself.

    • @ Vooke,

      He can ramble whatever he wants, but indeed he should ask himself one particular question.

      Which god he is or was he serving would have asked him to allow building illegally and without building permit to draft in engineers to do this work ?

      Secondly what is the reason he fights so hard with legal procedures to not stand into the dock to defend himself about it ?

      He always preached to leave Courtcases to God and not use lawyers to defend yourself.

      That is why he is a liar and scumbag. He tells you what suits himself and not you in the wake of everything and because people are scared of him, they don’t ask. But I will, next time I face wherever he crosses my path or I am his.

      Or we can hope and if he does come out that sincere courageous bold people will confront him about his dodging that he allowed building illegally and without building permit and scoffed God, Government and his followers with it.

  39. And the LORD said unto him, This is the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, saying, I will give it unto thy seed: I have caused thee to see it with thine eyes, but thou shalt not go over thither.
    So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. Deut 34:4-5

  40. Oh, TB Joshua, what are we going to do with you? Why do you not give a clear message of what should be done to be blessed by God.

    If you do not repent of the following sins, you will not be blessed.

    This is just a part of the Word of God for 2016 – if you do not repent:

    “The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun and it was allowed to scorch people with fire (global heating). They were scorched by the fierce heat and they cursed the Name of God who had power over these plagues. They did not repent and give him glory.

    The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast and its kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues in anguish and cursed the God of heaven for their pain and sores. They still did not repent of their deeds” – Revelation 16:8-11.
    “The rest of mankind who were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk. Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts” – Revelation 9:20-21.

    If you do not tell people to repent of their sins, no declared blessing by you will work!

  41. @vooke


    the present structures right now at his prayer mountain have been transformed into a luxurious living resort. there is a restaurant, library or study, gym, different sized rooms to accommodate families, couples and individuals, think of hotel like amenities.

    in the middle of the water is tb joshua’s luxurious house with the wisemen, and it is only accessible by boat. it is a about 3 floors or so. it appears as if he taped last night’s program on its balcony, telling by the way it was overlooking the water. as for the other spot in the middle of the water, i cant recall what or if i saw anything on it.

    among the bigger structures is tb joshua’s old hut that he used to live in as his home. its the only structure that has not been changed.

    one of the major changes is the long corridor that goes the whole way along the side of the lake. this is where the beach sand used to be. it has been totally transformed into a huge corridor with benches on both sides the whole way through, and bellow the benches on both sides is a spot where some people can kneel down to pray. it is enough to accommodate a large number of people who go there.

    it very nicely done and he went all out to give it a resort like feel. because it over looks the water it gives it a fairly peaceful scenery. it is also enclosed and screened in, that way you can be protected from the sun and rain while praying but still enjoy the water scenery. they used very high quality materials to give it a 5 star look, and by the looks of it, it is going to cost a lot of money to stay there, its not going to be cheap. and not everyone can stay there, it is only reserved for emmanuel tv partners. another thing is that, it is very heavily guarded

    • And all this because of an ordinary false prophet, TB Joshua? Satan must be rolling on the floor with laughter!

    • Very heavily guarded…..

      Pathetic ! He can’t even sleep with his eyes closed without it.

      True Martyrs dying for their faith with no recourse to any security.

      According to Acts of the Apostles

      James, son of Zebedee (executed by sword)
      Saint Stephen (stoning)

      According to Flavius Josephus
      James the Just (stoning)

      According to early Christian tradition

      Saint Peter, first attested by Tertullian about 200 AD
      Saint Paul, first attested by Ignatius probably about 110 AD

      According to late or local Christian tradition

      Mark the Evangelist
      Philip the Apostle – conflicting accounts (chose to stay crucified or was beheaded)
      Andrew the Apostle
      Jude the Apostle
      Bartholomew the Apostle – conflicting accounts
      Thomas the Apostle

      Largely or wholly legendary

      Simon the Zealot, varying and contradictory late traditions.

      Polycarp of Smyrna
      Justin Martyr
      Scillitan Martyrs
      Perpetua and Felicity
      Ptolemaeus and Lucius
      Pothinus, bishop of Lyon, with Blandina and several others, the “Martyrs of Lyon and Vienne”
      Pope Fabian
      Saint Sebastian
      Saint Agnes
      Felix and Adauctus
      Marcellinus and Peter
      Forty Martyrs of Sebaste
      Cyprian (for Protestants)

      Modern Era— 21st century

      Esther John 1929-1960, Found Killed in Chichawatni commemorated at Westminster Abbey.
      Maria Goretti (also a rape victim), 1902
      Grand Duchess Elizabeth Fyodorovna, 1918
      Nun Barbara (Yakovleva), 1918
      Saints of the Cristero War 1926-1927
      Miguel Pro, 1927
      Cristóbal Magallanes Jara, 1927
      Toribio Romo González, 1928
      Manche Masemola, (1913–1928)
      José Sánchez del Río 1928
      Innocencio of Mary Immaculate 1934
      Bartolome Blanco Marquez, 1936
      Martyrs of the Spanish Civil War 1934, 1936–1939
      Paul Schneider (pastor)1939
      Maximilian Kolbe (Polish Franciscan, died at Auschwitz), 1941
      Edith Stein (Carmelite nun, died at Auschwitz), 1942
      Lucian Tapiedi (1942)
      Franz Jägerstätter, 1943
      Dusty Miller (Martyr), 1945, a Methodist layman killed as a P.O.W. of the Japanese in Thailand during WWII.
      Dietrich Bonhoeffer, (April 9, 1945) Lutheran Pastor and member of the German Resistance
      Rolando Rivi, fourteen-year-old Seminarian 1945
      Theodore Romzha, 1947
      Beda Chang, 1951
      Zdenka Cecilia Schelingová, 1955
      Jim Elliot, 1956
      Nate Saint, 1956, killed while attempting to evangelize the Waodani people
      Ed McCully, 1956
      Pete Fleming, 1956
      Roger Youderian, 1956
      Wang Zhiming (1907 – December 29, 1973) Chinese pastor, publicly executed
      Janani Jakaliya Luwum (1922 – 17 February 1977), Archbishop of Uganda.
      Óscar Romero (August 15, 1917 – March 24, 1980), Archbishop of San Salvador
      Kosheh Martyrs, Egypt 1998–2000
      Martin Burnham, 2002
      Nag Hammadi martyrs, Egypt 2010
      Kenji Goto, 2015

      Compared to:

      TB Joshua, the Coward, who hides, schemes, lies, deceives, idol, false private prophet with the help of security and private plane and has lied to the public and his staff he is the victim and the persecuted one !

      Jesus certainly can be proud on you man.

      Bah !

    • Thank you @JustBloggingTruth,
      Can’t help wonder the absence of any NEW photos of the place. Photography must be restricted

      • @vooke
        It has struck me in the past how little unofficial videos and photos are seen of SCOAN. In this day of smart phones, youtube, instagram, facebook – to have a popular place like SCOAN almost completely unrepresented except on official channels is a phenomenal achievement. Photography at SCOAN must be completely forbidden, and they must be very vigilant in policing it. Which begs the question – why? What are they hiding?

      • a lot of visitors were taking pictures and videos through out all tours both at the church and prayer mountain, and the disciples did not seem to have any problems with that. but the emmanuel tv team also takes videos of people through out the whole tour.
        the only place people were probably not allowed to take photographs was during the prayer line, i guess it makes sense since it does get a bit chaotic there.
        oh there is another place at the church where photography was forbidden, there are two restaurants inside the building attached to the church auditorium, but it has a separate gate right next to the church gate entrance but opposite the compound where there was a building collapse.
        you will notice very heavily armed security guards. only official visitors who come by invitation only are allowed to eat at these restaurants. the reason they say they do not allow photography there is because they do not want the public to know about the restaurants. although fancy, they are a bit outdated and could use some remodeling. i thought it was a shame that they were not open to the public since the food was good and not many visitors eat there because it is so expensive especially if paying in US dollars, so many eat free at the dinning hall.

  42. Hi Jesse,

    I have listened to a video of Dr Walter Veith on the Fleur De Lis . He said it is also a symbol of the male and female private parts together. It sound logic to me, coming from Rome, because when
    Adam and Eve fell, sex and violence entered the world. It has run through humanity since then.
    In Noah’s time it was sex and violence.
    In Job’s time it was sex and violence and
    Jesus said that it will be like that before he comes again. Sex and violence.

    Just look around and see those two connected.
    Muslims – sex and violence.
    Africa – sex and violence etc and not even to speak about adultery, fornication and homosexuality in the world today.
    What about Rome-sex and violence. Just look at the Vatican buildings in Rome. It is build in the form of a females vagina and womb as well as the male falec inside. The people gathering inside there, are the ripe seeds to receive the rubbish that the Pope spews out over them.
    TB Joshua – sex and violence.

    The Fleur de Lis is just a symbol of that too.

    I know this is very graphic, but it is time to call a spade a spade and identify where sin started and how it still continues and getting worse by the day.

    That is what will move Jesus to act, just like in Noah and Lot’s times.

    • @Just Wonder,
      Walter Veith is a Seventh Day Adventist. This makes him strongly biased against Catholism and honestly I think he just peddles rumors and conspiracy theories for a living.

      SDA ‘inspired prophet’ Ellen White predicted persecution of sabbath keepers by a joint force of US and Roman Catholic. Ever since then, SDAs have in vain waited for this and they will latch on anything to vindicate their prophet.

      This explains their proclivity to Catholic/Jesuit conspiracy theories. I once read a book, Vatican Assasins be Eric Phleps that tied EVERY evil to the Jesuits,looking back, I feel stupid for being duped. Fortunately it was an ebook so it cost me nothing.

      Click to access Eric%20Jon%20Phelps%20-%20Vatican%20Assassins.pdf

      • Thanks Vooke- for lifting this out to me, but I am NOT a SDA nor am I promoting their doctrines, but I agree with Veith on all the secret society that he exposes. I say, that I will mine everywhere and keep the truth. One learns more and more from all these cults and how they operate. The SDA founders were FreeMasons and also A White and her husband and so are a lot of their current top leaders in the USA, but they are blind to that! Amazing.

    • @ Just Wonder,

      Thanks for the update. I found it quite interesting to see what is going on in there.

  43. TB Joshua’s ‘prayer mountain’ in a grove?

    “Thou shalt not plant thee a grove of any trees near unto the altar of the LORD thy God, which thou shalt make thee” – Deuteronomy 16:21

    “But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images and cut down their groves” – Exodus 34:13

    “For the LORD shall smite Israel, as a reed is shaken in the water and he shall root up Israel out of this good land, which he gave to their fathers and shall scatter them beyond the river, because they have made their groves, provoking the LORD to anger” – 1 Kings 14:15

  44. Let me make it clear and unravel it for you all:

    If DNA is not available or in the face of life changing accusations and fact as in the collapsed illegal Hostel without building permit. Make sure you:

    1 Deny guilt, recorded on a ‘voice stress analysis machine.
    2 Deny guilt, insisting on a lie detector test.
    3 Deny guilt, willing to undergo hypnosis.
    4 Deny guilt ultimately demanding ‘truth serum’ be administered.
    5 Waterboarding.

    Not all are admissible in Court but when pursued with life altering crimes, That are the facts on the Courts in Nigeria and the time they devour, if I was TB Joshua, I would be focused on showing my innocence by personal appearance in Court, but he does not, he goes out of the way with the defense of Lawyers and his daugther and get an handout from his supporters, followers, donors and transforms the place for a new tourism resort and business as usual. And of course tells you smoothly this is “God’s time” to speak now.

    Once I showed the misconduct and abuse of power by those responsible, consequences should be automatic and not “allow” them to cower under “immunity” for their actions,- or ‘guilty’. And that is what TBJ does. He wriggles, he schemes, he plans, he slithers out because he has money and uses smooth words to deceive us and the world.

    Those who are not understanding this of what I write, know that actors are just paid liars who are acting, human props that talk all kinds of things smooth would be a better description. There are also some that are just names in the script, that doesn’t require an actual physical person, those named people will never be seen or heard from on camera. The fake news machine needs content and the stupid things regular people do daily would never do to keep people tuning in, so the machine needs to produce the content. In our warped society celebrity and political scandals sell the best. People love watching others in trouble, especially when they are famous. These scripted storys are perfect for the Media Industrial Complex, because they have full control of the script, it can be stretched out and expanded on for ever. The other benefit to fake news is the future deals they can produce from it, like books, tv shows and movies depending on the story. For the the deviants that write and produce this cra-p, the possibility’s are endless. There is huge money in the manufactured News industry and the Media depends heavily on it. If it weren’t for fake news people would stop watching it. Without fake news, the media, much of the Orwellian government, the Military Industrial Complex, manufacturers of security devices, many pharmaceutical manufacturers and thousands of other industries would be gone and many would have never been started. The same you see here, SCOAN reinvented by marketing managers and that is what they have been doing by their smart and clever brain power and not by God. The fact that they exist is a testament to the power of manufactured news by all outlets and sell you out for making money on you. Just so you understand the media is under no requirement to tell the truth about anything as it is clear, but is only busy to fill their own coffers by using their milk cow. The fuel that the SCOAN machine runs on is, manufactured nonsense and fictional boogiemen stories and calling them offensive by using and abusing scriptures. All that’s required of you is to stay stupid, fearful and entertained by the fake news of the SCOAN and their henchmen as well their Hitler Leader who loves human worship coming his way under false pretense.

    2 Peter 2:3 Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3 and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep. 4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;…

    Absence makes the heart fonder was done on purpose, deliberately !!!! Do not be fooled any second from now. Do not silence your voice because you heard it from him on his new balcony, but step up your pressure on those that try to deceive you and destroy you and chain you to them for life to live a cult life, deceived. You catch my drift ?

    God bless you, Welcome to 2016 where everything goes and nobody gives a hoot about criminal negligence but are out there for to get more money out of everybody with deceit and 419 !

    • Remember when Michael Jackson was accused of being a pedophile and he settled cases out of court as the press kept airing all the dirt..and now he is treated as a sainted name with his own hologram show and tributes everywhere as if none of it happened. And his family still making money from it all. Have you ever seen a concert done by the Jackson 5 now 4 ? Never happened again, because they get tons of money out of their dead brother.

      The same is with TB Joshua. They put him up as their pedestal again and make money of him being famous. People have no morals or scruples.

      He can kill thousands upon thousands and they still will carry him as their personal favorite prophet. Why ? Because of what they can gain personally out of him. Don’t care about their consciousness whatsoever. Moral or no moral. Money will have to flow to SCOAN. Bah !

      Please, don’t get duped and misled by honey smooth words.Thank you ! Offence of no offence. I don’t care. I am done with him and his shenanigans but I will speak out even if I am the last person to do so on earth.

  45. Revelation 17:15 And he said to me, “The waters which you saw where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues. 16 “And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire. 17 “For God has put it in their hearts to execute His purpose by having a common purpose, and by giving their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God will be fulfilled.…

  46. Ya, Jesse:

    After our cup of tea (ha, ha…), I have also decided that I am finished with TB Joshua, because he is plain stupid and illiterate and also there is NO cure for stupidity. He just does not listen or cannot hear or does not want to hear.
    I also did not realize that tbj and his living courters are now in the middle of the lake and everyone praying are facing him. His arrogance shouts to heaven and the Lord Jesus will finally sort him out! I will however comment as the Lord leads me and keep on praying for those devotees still trapped their- to finally and permanently come out- this year of 2016.

  47. @Just Wonder

    “…because when Adam and Eve fell, sex and violence entered the world.”

    I understand the violence part, but what do you mean sex entered the world since the fall?

  48. General;

    Good question-

    I will try to explain it as short as possible, but it is a long study. Let me try and explain- During my Hebrew studies at the University, I had to read lots of Jewish literature. To cut a long story short, I saw in the Hebrew and their literature that – God does not give a punishment that does not fit the sin. So the sin must have been of a sexual nature (sex -not the right way,not according to God’s way) for God to say to the woman that from now on you will bear children in pain and that they also realized they were naked.
    The sexual tone of Genesis 3:6 is unmistakable. We have multiple clues here that something more than looking at a fruit and eating it is going on. That was the sex part.

    The violence and murder only manifested in the first born son Cain. Cain killed Abel. Cain was the world’s first violent murderer.
    Hope it shines some light on where the sex and violence started in Adam and Eve’s days:

    • @Just Wonder

      I’m sorry but I don’t see any sexual tone in Genesis 3, and I think it would take some fair amount of scripture twisting to make the scripture say this. All I see is Eve eating the fruit FIRST, AND THEN AFTER SHE GIVES TO HER HUSBAND ALSO. She ate first, and then gave Adam after. How is any of this sexual? Really this is extra-biblical. Sun Myung Moon also taught this like it’s a fact. I’m actually surprised that you subscribe to this doctrine.

    • But @Just Wonder how did the punishment of Sodom fit the sin therein?

      There has been many vain attempts to read allegories into Genesis but they fall flat all the times.

      If tree in the middle is sex, what of the others that they could eat? Were they sex positions?

      And exactly how does sex make man (Adam and Eve) like God?

      Serpent Seed Doctrine popularized by William Branham is totally hollow

  49. General:
    “I’m sorry but I don’t see any sexual tone in Genesis 3, and I think it would take some fair amount of scripture twisting to make the scripture say this. All I see is Eve eating the fruit FIRST, AND THEN AFTER SHE GIVES TO HER HUSBAND ALSO. She ate first, and then gave Adam after. How is any of this sexual?”

    You do not have to believe what I do. No problem.

    Genesis 3:1-7
    Now the serpent was more crafty than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made and he said to the woman, “Indeed, has God said, ‘You shall not eat from any tree of the garden’?” The woman said to the serpent, “From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat; but from the fruit of the tree which is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die.'”

    Yes, with just reading it like that, you will not see the real meaning. It is not scripture twisting. Now- Let me try and explain. Study it also for yourself without any person’s opinion, but use the whole Bible as you reference.

    I will try to explain it as short as possible, but it is a long study and space does not permit it. Let me try and explain- During my Hebrew studies at the University, I learned that in Hebrew you get masculine and feminine words, from the same root word-remember also that Hebrew words have more than one meaning:

    eg Adam-male word (אָדָם meaning mankind or Adam’s name )and Adamah-female word, (אֲדָמָה meaning ground). In a way they fit together eg Adam or Mankind came from the Ground. There is a connection.

    The same for ish (אּישׁ meaning man) and ishshah (נָשִׁים meaning woman). Now in Hebrew you can hear that the words belong together, but not always in English eg male and female belong together orthe words man and woman have a connection on the ear and grammar.

    So I came across the words for tree – ets (עֵץ meaning tree) and etsah (עָצָה meaning council) and I realize that they do not belong together. You cannot get council from a tree. So the ‘trees’ in the garden of Eden, must have been people.

    I started to investigate if trees are symbols in the Bible of people and so I discovered throughout the Bible they compare a person with a tree.

    Eg Nebuchadnezzar’s Dream of himself as a Tree – Daniel 4-6.

    Jesus compared Himself to a tree- Jesus said; “For if they do these things to me a green tree, what shall be done to you the dry trees? – Luke 23:31. etc etc.

    • @Just Wonder,
      Severally trees are symbols of men no doubt.

      But the leap of logic from the clear meaning of Genesis to sex is what is in question here.

    • @Just Wonder

      If we were to work with this explanation we would have more confusion.
      If Trees in the Garden of Eden = People, and if they were allowed to eat from the rest of the trees…

      Then that means Adam & Eve were allowed to have sex with other people (other trees) in the Garden of Eden?
      Eve had sex with a person she wasn’t supposed to (tree in the middle), Adam also had sex with that same person (tree in the middle)?


    There are also ample proof of the symbolic meaning of the fruit throughout the Bible:

    If you had forbidden sexual relation with a woman today, they even still up to today say – ‘that your ate from the forbidden fruit’.

    Psalm 69:22 -In all our comforts, there is a forbidden fruit – which seemeth fair and taste sweet, but which must not be touched.

    Holman Christian Standard Bible
    Though the lips of the forbidden woman drip honey and her words are smoother than oil – Proverbs 5:3

    John 15:4-5
    “Abide in Me and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.

    Matthew 12:33
    “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit.

    Matthew 3:10

    “The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
    So here we can see that the fruit and the trees were not physical things. It has a symbolic meaning.

    THE STORY IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN HAS A MUCH DEEPER MEANING eg who did the snake symbolized – a real physical snake or the person of satan?

    So Eve got council from satan, a person and they Adam and Eve made Cain without carrying God along and violence was born.
    So the Siamese twin demons were created, joined by the hip and WHO are manifesting since then and throughout the history of the world until today.

    • @Just Wonder,
      The reason behind the modern forbidden fruit metaphor for sex is this very Serpent Seed doctrine you subscribe to. So this is really CIRCULAR reasoning.

      Somebody claimed the forbidden fruit was sex and from this ‘forbidden fruit’ was a metaphor for sex.

      Please, there are one too many things used metaphorically in the scriptures but one needs very good reasons for reading metaphors whenever these appear. Wine is a symbol of Holy Spirit and also the shed blood of Jesus Christ. So imagine somebody reading from Provers that ‘wine is a mocker’ and concluding that the blood of Jesus Christ is a mocker😳😳😳

      That is EXACTLY how you sound

      Genesis 2:9 (KJV)
      And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

      Genesis 2:16-17 (KJV)
      And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

      Now @Just Wonder,
      1. How can trees in this passage be metaphors for men when you have men in the narrative?
      2. If trees are men, then Adam was not properly the first man contrary to Jesus and New Testament teachings
      3. If this forbidden fruit was sex, how was man supposed to reproduce before the fall?
      4. And if the forbidden fruit was ‘wrong sex’, can we also conclude eating other trees to be ‘right sex’?
      5. If we conclude as per #5, were Adam and Eve supposed to sleep with other men?

      I have debated proponents of this position for years and it all comes down to faith; believing in it simply because an authority(pastor or author or church) in your life teaches it. Nobody reading scriptures naturally would EVER come to such conclusions

      Your last point has absurd conclusions
      First, how did this supposed seed of Satan survive the Flood where it is written God saved Noah and his family?

      Secondly, why did God protect Cain even after he killed Abel if he was truly wicked?

      Thirdly, why did God counsel Cain to amend his ways?

      Paul was a violent man and then converted to a Christian. Of what seed was he?

      Once again, to hold in to this belief DEMANDS copious amounts of Eisegesis into the text of Genesis. Little wonder that throughout history of Christian history from Pentecost this idea has enjoyed negligible traction.

      Origen was the only person to have held a largely unpopular notion that Genesis 1 was an allegory

    • @Just Wonder

      Gen 3:1 “…Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?”
      Gen 3:2 “…We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:”
      Gen 3:3 “But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it…”
      Gen 3:5 “For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof…”
      Gen 3:6 “And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, […] and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.”
      Gen 3:11 “…Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?”
      Gen 3:12 “…she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.”
      Gen 3:13 “…And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.”
      Gen 3:17 “…and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it…”
      Gen 3:22 “…lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
      Gen 3:24 “…to keep the way of the tree of life.”

      Let’s just suppose that the Bible is trying to tell us of the literal TREE, literal FRUIT & literal EATING…
      How else is it supposed to be written to make clearer & eliminate ambiguity?
      Is there a way to say it clearer than this?

      You said: “…Adam and Eve made Cain without carrying God along…”
      To maintain this position you would have to deny that Eve got Cain from the Lord according to Gen 4:1
      Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

  51. Hi Vooke,

    ‘And exactly how does sex make man (Adam and Eve) like God? Serpent Seed Doctrine popularized by William Branham is totally hollow’

    I did not say that Eve slept with satan as the Bible does not say that. I do not agree with that filosofie. She got council about that act.

    The Bible very clearly says: “Adam made love to his wife Eve and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain” – Genesis 4:1, but they fell for the temptation to become like God, by creating a human being, without carrying God along.”

    There are also evidence of this in the Bible.

    Throughout the Bible history, all the great Men of God born from women (the people God was involved into creating) were conceived through much prayer. God was carried along. The woman were sterile until they called out to God for help. God wanted to be involved in making babies. For example Hannah, Samson’s mother, Sarah and Rebekah etc. etc.

    It is very interesting that our Lord Jesus was born, without any sexual act involved?

    Straight out of God’s perfect will.

    And He was sinless.

    • @Just Wonder

      ‘She got counsel about the act’
      Am sorry but this does not make any sense. All creatures were commanded to be fruitful and multiply. This included Adam, so how could Eve possibly get ‘counsel about the act’ from the serpent?

      Could you please explain, ‘creating a human being without carrying God along’?
      How were they supposed to do this the ‘God way’?

      ‘All the great men of God born from women were conceived through prayer’

      This is a bad assumption. SOME men were born through prayer but not ALL. David the greatest king of Israel was certainly born last in a large family and there is nothing special about his birth recorded, and in fact his father never thought much about him.

      Jesus was born without sex I agree but this is not because there is anything wrong with sex. Sex is the ONLY means of propagation for higher animals. This means the Virgin birth of our savior has zero bearing on this doctrine. In any case, EVERYBODY else is a product of sex!

      • @ Vooke,

        How do you see artificial insemination ?
        And babies created in a laboratory outside for a longer time, do they have a soul ? Or when do they get a soul ?
        And how about cloning a human ? Do they have a soul ?

  52. …’EVERYBODY else is a product of sex!’

    …and so it became necessary for all who were created by the will of a man, to go through a second birth. A birth where God is involved in.You need to be born again, by the will of God, to eventually became what God intended you to be at the beginning.

    …”who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God” – 1 John 1:13.

    • @Just Wonder,
      We have spiritual birth and physical birth. You are conflating the two for reasons known best to yourself.

      All men are born ‘by the will of man’ whatever that means to you. It is not an accident but DESIGN, else explain to me how a spouse born again ‘by the will of God’ (spiritual birth) can bring forth anything into this world that is not ‘born of the will of man'(sex and physical birth).

      Once again, sex and procreation is not man’s invention nor ‘will of man’ but God’s design.

      Check what you are feeding bro.

      About artificial insemination,
      I believe a soul is placed in the fusion of the sperm and ovum.

      Exodus 21:22-23 (KJV)
      If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. 23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life

      This verse tells me that God regards a pregnancy/fetus as a man as an adult to the extent of avenging a deliberate miscarriage with death.. The only reason, to me,He would do this is because an embryo has a spirit

      • @ Vooke,

        “I believe…….”

        How does this happen because it says:

        Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

        Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

        So if you “mine” sperm and an egg, there is only “dust” there because it will perish one day. So if Scientists are doing it without the Union of man and a woman by having sex, there is no “breathing” on taking place. This only can happen with intercourse. I know this is a difficult topic but you need “Pneuma” to be involved to have (receive) a human soul that makes you an unique individual. This is to my belief can only happen when you have intercourse as a man and woman because it is designed that way.

        When a scientist is using the two by scientific experiment then there could not be a soul “fused” inside a person because God is not working through this type of design or application. The same with application of cloning.

        So if then in future will be designer babies they would be soulless individuals. These would only be “programmed” or “learning” to be knowing a moral and immoral compass because of intellect and self-righteousness. Even up to be a lawless human individual and be a more convenient vessel to be a carrier of demonic entities because there is no soul there.

    • Madelaine,

      Yes, he came out and Ruth preached in the face of her parents. It made me so angry. His crafty tricks that he is implementing to impress them and keep that family in his cult! Who would know what he is busy with, if you do not know the people and their situation. I will keep on praying for them to come out. All of them.


      • @Just Wonder @Madelaine
        At 24:50 Ruth says: “Every moment of my life I give thanks to God for the grace to be a daughter of TB Joshua, my father in the Lord, who God has used to rescue me”

        Harrowing words, especially since they are spoken in front of her actual father. Tragic.

      • Ruth is just as delusional and misguided as could be! If the false prophet has come out of hiding you can be sure he has “settled” with the authorities and can now do “business” as usual. In Nigeria, almost anyone could be bought with money!!!!

      • “…the grace to be a daughter of TB Joshua…”

        That just sounds so wrong

        Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

        Child of God or child of TB Joshua?

      • @ Just Wonder,

        Ruth lived a not so great live in Cancun, Mexico. You have to ask why she wanted that kind of life ? Since her parents are well educated people with big brain power, but have decided to sell everything and live over there in SCOAN. She sees TB Joshua as her rescuer of her personal choices she made. Her mother has the desire to travel as she was purporting in her false fake deliverance she allegedly had of the “spirit of death” in December 2013 and her husband had so to speak also a “spirit of darkness”. One got to ask themselves, if you are in so called deliverance ministry and go all over the world “delivering” people with “anointed water” why did they never manifest themselves under it and their co-workers could not deliver them and had to go back for “deliverance” in full view of everybody to deceive us in letting us to think that we needed “deliverance” too.

        No, they had to go to SCOAN for that and make a scene out of it, like the rest of the family did and some other families. They are so infatuated with TB Joshua because it is a much easier life to live there then go out every morning and do a normal job and you have go out and provide for you family when you can get money with just writing plaquards with diseases, press a pump of “anointed water” and point finger at a so called demon, go out on a plane, carry stuff for others and distribute that or even make links with existing pastors who are so excited to have TB Joshua over so they can do big crusades.

        I do not say this to you derogatory or being irritating because I can totally sort of understand your pain and frustration and if we could get TB Joshua on a designated place isolated from everyone we could address him of what he is doing to you and the rest of your family.

        They think they are into God’s whatever army and do not realize what they have let themselves into, that going back to normal life is to be fought off as hard as possible because they live a protected life inside this cult. I am really sorry that this is everyday on your consciousness and I pray also for you that they will see what they are actually doing in what they are doing.

        Just to mention again that he now sits in the middle of the lake in Prayer Mountain and people facing his house and him in it by being on your knees praying should be enough for everyone to see what really is happening in the spiritual world concerning TB Joshua and his wiles.

        Rest me to say, I am praying for you and them that they will come out and be delivered from all this nightmare and deception.

  53. CL,SCOAN 03/01/16 : Prophet T.B.Joshua Message,Prophecies, Deliverance,Teachings , Revelations

  54. Vooke,

    All of this is not necessary for salvation and you are entitled to differ from me, but now I can try and show you that, I believe, God wanted Adam and Eve to create humans with Him. By the will of God and man. Together. I believe it should have happened together. In other word, if by God’s will they created a human, the child would have been born again right after birth, but the crafty council of satan, drew their obedience to God away from him and the process was separated like we have it today.
    We are born of flesh and then later, according to God’s will, born again by His Holy Spirit.

    • @Just Wonder,
      It is well, just that your notion of ‘God wanted Adam and Eve to create humans WITH HIM’ that I can’t place nowhere in scriptures. You are indirectly insinuating that presently men create humans WITHOUT God

      Was Jeremiah created ‘With God’ or ‘without God’?

      Jeremiah 1:5 (KJV)
      Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

      What about David?

      Psalms 51:5 (KJV)
      Behold, I was shapen in iniquity;
      and in sin did my mother conceive me.

      All of us are born of the flesh not because Adam sinned but because that is God’s design. The idea that there was another mode of procreation ‘with God’ thwarted by Satan at the Fall is unscriptural

    • @Just wonder

      Firstly, even though this topic is not necessary for salvation, we must still watch against deviating from orthodox understanding of the scripture. That’s how the devil infiltrates the flock. Ironically Genesis 3 is a perfect example of this. The devil twisted Eve’s understanding of God’s original word. That’s what led to the fall. The devil still uses the same strategy, make people doubt the received word [and its meaning], and then slowly there is a slide into denial of literal hell, literal lake of fire, etc. That’s why error must be pointed out early.

      Secondly, we can’t use error to expose error. TB Joshua has a lot of critics and some of these critics don’t have Biblically sound arguments.This make the waters more murky; very difficult for genuine truth seekers to discern. I am for exposing the TB Joshua deception. But we must be careful not use false doctrines to expose false doctrines. It makes the whole exercise rather futile (Mat 7:3-5), because it will make people abandon error only to embrace another error.

      Thirdly, what really brought us to this topic is that you connected sex with Adam & Eve, Noah’s time, Job’s time, Jesus’ return, Rome, Muslims, Africa, TB Joshua, and since we are talking about TB Joshua on this blog I was sincerely trying to understand because it didn’t make sense to me for you to connect Adam & Eve monogamous life together to TB Joshua’s immoral lifestyle, which by the way I still don’t see a common thread there.

      Fourthly, one can learn a lot from the comment section. I for one have learnt from you & other commenters on this blog & some are no longer commenting as regularly. So even though this topic might not be necessary for salvation I still think it’s necessary to point out errors for the benefit of readers who may not be clued up about the topic, which I think @Vooke gave an excellent, Biblically sound & solid argument to correct this. Thanks @Vooke

    • @ Just Wonder,

      @ Just Wonder,

      The only way to have this is that he will be brought to Court, testify about he allegations he has made about his illegal hostel built without a building permit and admit that he did not have a command from God to built it and that he was wrong to approve and allow it. Then publicly admit he is a serial liar. Even in he new latest sermon I found several lies from him, but everybody is laughing it off and just don’t care. They have back their idol and he is again with clever words brainwashing them and using scripture from Joshua to emphasize his own name and tell you when you have his new trinket you will carry him with you 24/7 his name, his hands and other stupid nonsense.

      I can’t believe that people are so fanatic upon this kind of trinkets to have them while after all just a piece of plastic, he calls is “satellite connection” to him. You can see the cogs of brainwashing making a huge noise but the people love it so.

      The prophets prophesy false:

      Jeremiah 5:31 The prophets prophesy falsely, and the priests bear rule by their means; and my people love to have it so: and what will ye do in the end thereof?

      #MH370 Declared by false prophet TB Joshua through “prophecy”, the plane will be found by the end of the week of 15th of March 2014. A wing, debris and we will not talk about it anymore.


      #BokoHaram According to false prophet TB Joshua, Boko Haram as just a few disturbed individuals and will be a thing of the past by 2013.


      #Chibokgirls Declared by false prophet TB Joshua that if he was a prophet of God, they will be released immediately.


      #Ebola Is eradicated because his “anointed water”.


      #CollapsehostelSCOAN TB Joshua claims that a Lockheed Martin C130 was fitted with a infrared laser gun and brought his illegal hostel without building permit down.


      Pictures taken from a SCOAN followers mobile phone WIHTOUT DATES and TIME on them.

      How much lies can someone tell you or even them that sit in church that know that the commandment of God says:

      Leviticus 19:11 Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another.

      How can you just sit and say nothing ?

      It would mean that they are just as bad as TB Joshua and staff is. LIARS ! DECEIVERS ! and SCAMMERS !

      Why is the world of church accepting any of that ?

  55. Hi guys,
    Some of us have not commented as regularly as we would have liked but I personally do follow and am learning from this. It really fits some of my needs. Not only to expose the charlatan that TBJ is, but ultimately, where possible, also expose ways of perdition.

  56. You can see that Nigerians definitely do not read their Bibles.


    Romans 13:3 “You shall have no other gods before Me. 4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5 “You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,…

    Since they don’t, how can you teach Nigerians that TB Joshua is a False Private Prophet that is kept in the saddle by his fanatic cursing you followers that do not know anything about what God is actually saying in His Word.

  57. Regarding and article that is written upon TB Joshua Fan Club

    Then you need tot read the Bible better and know that what is done, is an extension directly FROM GOD !

    Since you all don’t read your Bible, I will quote it to you all:

    13 All of you must obey the government rulers. Everyone who rules was given the power to rule by God. <~~ And all those who rule now were given that power by God. <~~ Even if it was Pharaoh. 2 So anyone who is against the government is really against <~~ something God has commanded. Those who are against the government bring punishment on themselves. 3 People who do right don’t have to fear the rulers. But those who do wrong must fear them. Do you want to be free from fearing them? Then do only what is right, and they will praise you.

    4 Rulers are God’s servants to help you. But if you do wrong, you have reason to be afraid. They have the power to punish, and they will use it. They are God’s servants to punish those who do wrong. 5 So you must obey the government, not just because you might be punished, but because you know it is the right thing to do.

    6 And this is why you pay taxes too. Those rulers are working for God, and they give all their time to the work of ruling. 7 Give everyone what you owe them. If you owe them any kind of tax, then pay it. Show respect to those you should respect. And show honor to those you should honor.

    Obey the Word of God AND the Government as well the constitutions, the law and stop dithering in your own confusion and fantasy or what needs to be done or not done.

    TB Joshua must obey the Laws of the Land as well the Laws that are in place.

    Leviticus 19:15 Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism<~~~~to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly.

    Deuteronomy 16:18 “You shall appoint for yourself judges and officers in all your towns which the LORD your God is giving you, according to your tribes, and they shall judge the people with righteous judgment. 19 “You shall not distort justice; you shall not be partial <~~, and you shall not take a bribe<~~~, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and perverts the words of the righteous.…<~~~

    TB Joshua has chosen in the past and his staff and the building engineers to build illegally and without building permit. The other result was that TB Joshua did NOT have the command from God to build illegally because God is not in building illegally and without building permit.

    Get your facts right and see that all is pointing to TB Joshua because of his disobedience to allow then buildings to be build illegally he trespassed the government ordinations and constitutions and the law of the land of Nigeria and Lagos.

    That result of whatever happened in this case 116 people died is because TB Joshua chose to put another building on New Land and there were several matters that have arisen due to that. It was designed for 2 stories not 6 stories. TB Joshua ignored everything in negligence and made everything in the open that he was wrong, so he should testify in Court because of his choices and not hide and scupper, wriggle, scheme and twist to get away with his own choices. So should all those that were involved in approving the collapsed Hostel.

    This is righteous Judgement and should be carried out by the Judges appointed in the High Court and the honour the constitution and rights of the State of Nigeria. Neglecting this it means there is no justice taking place rather diverting the course of justice and pervert it.

    Your Honourable Judge of who is presiding I directly appeal to you that you will do as is Just and Right in the eyes of the people of Nigeria and above God Almighty of whom you are have sworn an oath to, to represent yourself as upholding the Law as it is written:

    Romans 3:30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one. 31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

    • @Jesse
      I could barely get past the first incoherent sentence “It calls for alarm how disturbing legitimacy is becoming slowly ruled out in cases that are legally constituted.” huh?!! The rest of the article was slightly more coherent, but still a complete misunderstanding of how countries are governed.

  58. EH, Jesse
    To read God words you need the spirit of God. You cannot quote the bible with the spirits in you. First you need deliverance from the spirit of jealousy, the spirit of hatred. After that we can talk about God words.


    • @ Domi DG,

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

      That is now exactly your own problem. You don’t read it at all, you skip and twist your own brainwashed by TB Joshua brain on it. Because I am a former inside but now an outsider now looking into your derelict swamp with python head from Google Earth perspective I know now which side you are on. Your deception is getting worse now by the year. Please get your own deliverance somewhere else than SCOAN.

      …7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; 8just as it is written, “GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.” 9And David says, “LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP, AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM.…

      So go tell WATCHED and this Dooley woman to put back my posts visible, because cowardly removing my careful chosen words is showing that I touched a giant big open raw nerve inside there. Nods !

      • Actually I am gonna rewrite that again better for everyone to see so that it is clear as day.

        Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nice try. Keep dreaming.

        Just for you again, I was baptized as a baby in the Father, Son AND Holy Ghost publicly, did public confirmation after 18 and then I did again public water baptism before thousands of witnesses, God, the Holy Spirit, Jesus and the Angels as an adult and asked separately for to be baptized in the Holy Ghost in Spirit and in Fire which was done there and then. As in:

        Matthew 3:11 I baptize you with water for repentance, but after me will come One more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

        But it is never enough for you ever. Always needs to be something on top of it or whatever bull your keep bringing up.

        Thank God He knows what is enough for Him and me. I am in and under the Blood of Jesus and He is Lord over me.

        You just can’t have it that I am set apart for such a time as this for many years now. Eh ! Look what happened to all your word curses, funny stories, threats, diversions, jumping up and down perhaps in your room and doing your Wulu Wulu and it still has not reached here whatsoever and each time it has fallen dead to the ground. So whenever you stop jumping up and down with your red face and your little tight fists and refrain from spitting out your regurgitation’s from within, maybe then, I said maybe then, God will show you what I actually really said.

        And another thing regarding these particular scriptures I have put here for your to ponder. I wonder if you can even have time to read it. Because That is now exactly your own problem. You don’t read it at all or are deliberately blind to it because your are so infatuated by your idol TBJ. But no worries, I get it. you skip and twist your own brain that is brainwashed by TB Joshua on it and just want to agree to disagree. Remember, I am a former insider but now am an outsider now looking inside into your derelict swamp with python head from Google Earth perspective and I now know and others which side you are on. Your deception is getting worse now by the year and the day. Please, get your own deliverance somewhere else than SCOAN.

        Romans11:7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; 8 just as it is written, “GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY.” 9And David says, “LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP, AND A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RETRIBUTION TO THEM.…

        So go tell “WATCHED” and this Dooley woman to put back my posts visible on there, because cowardly removing my careful chosen words is showing that I touched a giant big open festering raw nerve inside there.

  59. Conrad Mbewe thinks TB Joshua is a fraud albeit for the wrong reasons; Cessationism.

    Cessationists simply believe the spiritual gifts especially the so-called power gift of tongues,prophecy, interpretation, and healing and signs ceased with the apostles. This makes anybody exercising these today to be either a cheat of under demonic influence in their eyes. The only good gift is the nonexistent one.
    Cessationism is a bad reason to attack TB Joshua

    • @vooke
      I know Mwebe is a cessationist and I disagree with him on that, but his criticism of TB Joshua is right on the money. None of his points undermine the possibility of a continuation of the gifts, even though he doesn’t believe in that. Despite my disagreements with him, I think his cessationism is less harmful than the extravagant blasphemies of a lot of Charismania.

    • @Vooke
      I read an article some time ago (sorry I don’t have the reference), basically the author was challenging the cessation view by stating that numerous christians from the Ante-Nicene period reported witnessing some miracles, therefore implying that these didn’t stop with apostles.
      I also do have a problem with cessationism.
      I watched the strange fire conference, very compelling, sparked a lot of debate between cessationists & continuationists. Conrad Mbewe spoke twice there.
      The whole conference was a strong critique, like @tbjoshuawatch puts it, of the “extravagant blasphemies of a lot of Charismania“. The points they brought to the table are very strong & I would agree with some of their stuff.

      • @tbjoshuawatch
        Please delete the video in my previous post. I wanted to post a link to the playlist, not embed the video itself.

      • @General, @tbjoshuawatch,
        I think extremism in Christianity is simply over focusing on one aspect of the faith at the expense of others. Pentecostalism places a heavy emphasis on spiritual gifts and experiences. This of course is at the expense of sound doctrine or scriptures.

        One may argue that the solution to Pentecostalism excesses is cessationism. I agree. But this is no better than prescribing atheism to cure spiritual abuse.

        Cessationism is one step shy of full blown skepticism; a skeptic will tell you there is no supernatural and whatever is recorded is fabrication, while a cessationist limits the fabrication to anything outside the text.

      • @vooke
        I wouldn’t say that cessationism is a cure for pentecostal excess, but if you were to only consider the two extremes, I think cessationism is less damaging. Since healthy charismatic theology is an option and I believe scriptural we don’t have to swing to the other extreme, but I have less issue with people who would swing to that extreme than the other.

    • @ Vooke,

      Then watch this. Manifestations, manifestations, manifestations.

      Same as they think manifestations is from God, hence the people who manifest it must be from God. Same for TB Joshua with mass deliverance. As long somebody rolls over the floor, vomits something out is authentic, just like his funny credit card.

      This is another prophet I met up close in our church, Rick Joyner. Funny prophecies and continuous manifestations which lead to anything than rolling, swaying and doing funny.

      Same for TB Joshua, same thing different ways of manifestation. It’s the Kundalini serpent operating. Why not take a look again about this Prayer Muntaun shape from Google Earth. Whattttt! It’s a pythons head….. why ? Because ???

  60. “I am seeing an arrow from there and it will affect the world,” he soberly stated. “Let us live at peace because the war we are fighting already in Syria is still there. We cannot afford another one again.” The cleric went further to speak on the advanced weaponry the nation possessed. “There are some weapons there the world does not know about. If they throw that arrow, there will be confusion,” he stated.
    JESSE what are you talking about ? You must show respect in TB Joshua the only Prophet alive before i can read your nonsense…


    • @DOMI DG,
      Shall we presume you are talking about North Korea’s H-bomb test?

      Here is the relevant clip

      Here are a few facts for you;
      1. TB Joshua has yet to release a ‘fulfillment’ video. From his past MO, fulfilment videos are dished out even in under 12 hours. Look at how fast he claimed to have prophesied the last Indian train derailment. All these claims are coming from his adoring fans

      North Korea has publicly claimed to possess nuclear warheads and has even threatened the US
      North Korea has carried out such tests at least thrice before with the last one being in 2013
      Any nuclear nation under attack would as a last resort detonate the nuclear bomb. And it is widely believed North Korea has some nuclear capability
      The H-Test was carried out some 10KM beneath the surface of the earth.

      These three tell me the following;
      1. TB Joshua has not ‘claimed responsibility’ so it is premature to examine his claims
      2. Even if TB Joshua claims fulfilment, it would not be anything new as all this information was public
      3. A bomb detonating 10KM under the surface scarcely matches a shot arrow by any stretch of imagination

    • @ Domi DG,

      I must show respect before you read anything ? Oh my, my.

      Every year North Korea does tests and shoots rockets, where are you on about ? Nothing new. Absolutely not. This throw in the wind pee pee just went back into your face again. It was the inevitable. Everybody on earth knew who was interested in North Korea that they were working on this, year in, year out, it was the sole reason for to sanction them as they do with Iran.

      This was no prophecy at all. It was an inevitable guess what would happen even without anything being said. Still your forgot about the time of end February begin April which is exactly the times South Korea is doing “wargames” with the US.

      On 12 February 2013, North Korean state media announced it had conducted an underground nuclear test, its third in seven years. <~~~~ A tremor that exhibited a nuclear bomb signature with an initial magnitude 4.9 (later revised to 5.1) was detected by the China Earthquake Networks Center, Preparatory Commission for the Comprehensive Nuclear-Test-Ban Treaty Organization and the United States Geological Survey. In response, Japan summoned an emergency United Nations meeting for 12 February and South Korea raised its military alert status.

      Please tell Oh thou great Sage TB Joshua to go back to bed will you now in your swamp. Hihihihi. Joker. Everybody sees through it, but you and his silly deceived followers.

  61. Jesse,
    You really believe that test tube babies are soulless?
    The problem with this hypothesis is that some live fully and become Christians, and one has to wonder what part of them is born again.

    I said I believe God plants a soul at cell fusion and you said He does it during sex. Shouldn’t you have at least tried to refute my position first?

    One thing I can’t run away from is the full and total humanity of products of artificial insemination. Since they are in every way human, the burden of proof is on the doubters to prove otherwise.

    Hope you know the theory of soulless IVF babies was popularized by an apparition of the Virgin Mary in 1978. You may as well invest in a rosary because it also ‘came down’ from the Virgin

    You would do well to acquaint yourself with the tantrums Catholicism throws at reproductive health/technology, why they are rabidly opposed to contraception and so forth

    • @ Vooke,

      Thank you for your reply. I will try as best as I can to answer your questions. So please bare with me about it.

      You want me to refute it ? Not sure if I must. I am not sure either if you are willing to listen to me about it in the first place. Please do not be close minded because you might have heard it first from me here. So hear me out before you throw my thoughts and thinking about this away. Like in throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

      There is also no evidence of what you are saying regarding that God is planting a soul at cell fusion in your analogy. Please, help me to understand where you got that from or how it would go about. I think: Here is why. Everything of our bodies is perishable and cannot produce any spiritual things with our bodies and also it will turn back to dust as in:

      Genesis 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust (to created flesh) thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

      Which means is that our mortal flesh (Sarx in Greek)

      Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
      Transliteration: sarx
      Phonetic Spelling: (sarx)
      Short Definition: flesh, body
      Definition: flesh, body, human nature, materiality; kindred.

      Strongs Exhaustive etc. etc.

      4561 sárks properly, flesh (“carnal”), merely of human origin or empowerment.

      4561 /sárks (“flesh”) is not always evil in Scripture. Indeed, it is used positively in relation to sexual intercourse in marriage (Eph

      5:31) – as well as for the sinless human body of Jesus (John 1:14; 1 John 4:2,3). Indeed, flesh (what is physical) is necessary for the

      body to live out the faith the Lord works in (Galatians 2:20).

      4561 (sarks) is generally negative, referring to making decisions (actions) according to self – i.e. done apart from faith (independent

      from God’s inworking). Thus what is “of the flesh (carnal)” is by definition displeasing to the Lord – even things that seem

      “respectable!” In short, flesh generally relates to unaided human effort, i.e. decisions (actions) that originate from self or are

      empowered by self. This is carnal (“of the flesh”) and proceeds out of the untouched (unchanged) part of us – i.e. what is not

      transformed by God. Or even opposing to God.

      Our flesh perishes and desintergrates and God has designed us for to do to following with His direct command:

      Genesis 9:7 And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein. Only Adam and Eve were existing then. (How they discovered this, I have no idea, but they probably asked themselves what is this or that for and how can we use it…;-)) Or perhaps God showed them how to do it ? It’s not written anywhere as far as I know.

      I only know, Genesis 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.


      God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils and then we got the breath of life. Man became a living soul

      in Genesis 2.7. When God first created man He formed him of dust from the ground, and then breathed the breath of life into his

      nostrils. As soon as the breath of life, which became man’s spirit, came into contact with man’s body, the soul was produced. Hence

      the soul is the combination of man’s body and spirit. The Scriptures therefore call man a living soul. The breath of life became man’s

      spirit; that is, the principle of life within him. The Lord Jesus tells us it is the spirit that gives life as written in John 6.63. This breath of

      life comes from the Lord of Creation.

      However, we must not confuse man’s spirit with God’s Holy Spirit. The latter differs from our human spirit. Romans 8.16 demonstrates their difference by declaring that it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God. The original of the word life in breath of life is chay and is in the plural. This may refer to the fact that the in-breathing of God produced a twofold life, soulical and spiritual. When the in-breathing of God entered man’s body it became the spirit of man; but when the spirit reacted with the body the soul was produced. This explains the source of our spiritual and soulical lives. We must recognize, though, that this spirit is not God’s Own life, for the breath of the Almighty gives me life as written in Job 33.4.

      It is not the entrance of the uncreated life of God into man, neither is it that life of God, which we receive at regeneration. What

      we receive at new birth is God’s Own life as typified by the Tree of life. But our human spirit, though permanently existing, is void of

      eternal life. This is another debate worthy to look into. 😉

      The other scripture was:

      Ecclesiates 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

      Which means after the body ceases to operate, deadly heart attack, brain hemorrhage, or just all over organ failure our human spirit returns back to God with our soul attached to be in Paradise or in Hades then at Judgment Day we will appear before God for Judgment and looked if we are in the Book of Life.

      Here is why I believe or rather am convinced about that artificial insemination could not create a living soul because God is to my discovery only present by His Divine Will expressed in Genesis 3:19 in our “multiplying” as His commandment is to reproduce in that way alone. It takes TWO people, man and female to manifest this in conjunction of having intercourse and also being One Flesh to receive God’s human spirit by His Divine Will and way. Mark 10:7 “FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER, 8 AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9 “What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”…

      That is why it is commanded in that way, not as in: Oh let’s have a nice loving relationship whether man to man, woman to woman, it’s ok as long we love each other, but as man and woman to create God’s in breathed children and then we can follow His ways.

      It completely makes sense to me, I am surprised it is not to you ? I have not read this anywhere, it just has come to me like that when I was sitting down about it and pondering about it. These two scriptures came to my mind about it. I believe it was God that put them in my head regarding this.

      It’s all on purpose my friend, not by conincident but by design and by His Will that is was so since the conception of Genesis 1 onwards. Humans have destroyed this by doing their own thing and we can see all around us what has come from it. And it will even get worse until Jesus is stepping in and come back to set the record straight about all this. Even though the advances of technology and science has progressed greatly and can help us, it is expedient that we are returning back to connect to God’s Spirit to be divinely lead in this maze that humans have created by their increase in knowledge.

      Daniel 12:3 “Those who have insight will shine brightly like the brightness of the expanse of heaven, and those who lead the many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever. 4 “But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase.” 5 Then I, Daniel, looked and behold, two others were standing, one on this bank of the river and the other on that bank of the river. 6 And one said to the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long will it be until the end of these wonders? ” 7 I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed.…

      PS, I am not Catholic, hence my objections of a prayer wristband etc etc.

      • @ Vooke,

        “but as man and woman to create God’s in breathed children and then we can follow His ways.”

        I meant by that after receiving our human spirit we are a living soul in the concept of God’s command in Genesis. And we have an opportunity to encounter His Holy Spirit. Perhaps as written into:

        John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

        It’s hard to tell individually who has an encounter with the Holy Ghost and unless you express yourself into this as willing I suppose it is laid within our in breathed by Him the human spirit that God has given us. I know it is very complex but not weird, maybe you could weigh in to see where our thoughts could meet up and understand it better or perhaps explain it better. Just don’t bang me on it. Thanks. I am open for debate. Because I sick and tired of these crazy stories they hang up from TB Joshua and his disgusting fabircated teachings and their own blah blah and glorification of him that comes with it.

      • Jesse: “…..Here is why I believe or rather am convinced about that artificial insemination could not create a living soul because God is to my discovery only present by His Divine Will expressed in Genesis 3:19 in our “multiplying” as His commandment is to reproduce in that way alone. It takes TWO people, man and female to manifest this in conjunction of having intercourse and also being One Flesh to receive God’s human spirit by His Divine Will and way. …”

        @Jesse, I believe this is the focal point of your post. God is ONLY present during sexual intercourse.

        It is true God commanded men to have sex to reproduce but pray I ask, was there any other way he could have prescribed reproduction? Is there any other way scriptures could have captured in vitro fertilization?

        My brother yours is simply argument from silence; since God commanded all animals to multiply and be fruitful, something which THEN necessarily meant sex, anything else MUST be sin or out of God’s divine will.

        But what about intravenous injection, or assisted aspiration? Or dialysis. We know drugs and food are routinely injected directly through the veins bypassing the mouth and the alimentary canal. We also know that this happens exceptionally under emergencies such as unconsciousness or weakness. Shall we argue that since God told us to eat, any other exercise with exact same goal and accomplishment as eating is out of God’s divine will and way, and therefore sin? Why make fuss of assisting nature on reproduction while ignoring other scientific leaps that preserve life?

        The other point is you are busy conflating CREATION of man(Adam and Eve) with REPRODUCTION.
        While it is 110% clear that God made a man out of soil and it is only upon putting His breath in him that he became a living soul,there is nothing written indicating the exact point God places His spirit during reproduction. So we resort to conjecture, I posit at cell fusion and you add to this two more conditions sexual intercourse and within a uterus.

        Thirdly, sometimes all that is done is artificial insemination(AI) where sperms are injected into the uterus hoping that fusion will happen. This too according to your ‘discovery’ falls short because whereas there is a man and a woman, there is no sexual intercourse.

        Finally Jesse,
        I appeal to EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE. According to Genesis, before the breath of life, Adam was lifeless. He was only animated at the breath of life as you have marvelously explained. This means there can’t possibly be animation WITHOUT a soul. But we know too well that the 5 million+ test tube babies are in every way animated and full of life just as you Jesse. Denying their humanity is therefore a matter of philosophical conjecture devoid of any regard to reality!

        Men have struggled understanding how ancient Egyptians put up magnificent pyramids. Why do they struggle? They first assume that there was no known technology to construct these thousands of years ago. So even think the pyramids were made by aliens. The reason men struggle with HOW is because we have pyramids presently. You can bet that if there were no pyramids around, we would easily dismiss any notion that thousands of years ago, primitive men could manage to make them.

        Likewise, if IVF fails to result in new life, we can easily argue that it is simply because God is not putting the animating spirit into the flesh. But we see the results, we see life. It is unwise to deny this EPIRICAL evidence simply because it contradicts our presumption of ‘necessary conditions’ for God to give life namely sex and uterus.

      • @Jesse

        Let me add two points:

        First: there are children born from rape, fornication & adultery and yet they are just as fully human as you & I. The Bible is very clear that these acts are sinful & therefore obviously they don’t follow God’s Divine Will, and those who are guilty of these are in danger of hell fire. I would assume that you wouldn’t regard people born from these acts as “soulless” even though there is clear evidence that God’s Divine Will was undoubtedly violated in these very acts. Can you see a major contradiction here? Thus it comes down to the point that it is in fact at the fusion of the male seed & the female egg where the soul gets created.

        Second: I think your teaching is very dangerous because in the extreme it gives false immunity from being accountable to God. What do I mean? Follow this: just like you & I, these people know right & wrong, therefore they have free will. Your teaching essentially gives them license to be as sinful as they wish, like Jezebel, Nicolaitans, Hitler, or even the Anti-Christ and they will never have to face God’s wrath & justice in hell (Mat 10:28), they don’t have souls & so even God can’t touch them.

    • @ General,

      Thank you for your reply, let me continue on your answer.

      I never purported this as a teaching or anything. You are laying words in my mouth that I did not mean as such.

      There is still no evidence here in what you say that a human soul is created as being said, nor by any of you or even proven as such. I want to see it in Scripture that proves this. No link to anything.

      What do you understand about a soul ? There is a teaching that a soul is into everything, even animals. Vooke says it’s not in animals. Others call it instinct. There are animals in Heaven clearly. Or are they metaphorical ?

      Anybody is facing the Judgment of God, whether you are a believer or not a believer, rapist, anti-christ or whatever, it just does not make any difference is it ? All will face it anyways, right and be judged of what you did or not do even to what your words were ?

      2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

      Hebrews 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

      What I find particular that I hear lately from several celebrities for as much like Madonna or even Lady Gaga recently whether this is true or not, they have been raped somewhere. I don’t know if they have any children from that as such. But if God cannot violate His Commandment of not giving a soul because I think it is that part of that commandment, indeed they will get a soul as such by the act whether this was rape or by a “normal” intercourse that was said and done from Genesis 3:19.

      I am not teaching anything here, let me just say this. I am just saying this because it would make sense because of that of what I said. To me it does make sense. Apparently it does not to any of you, because none of your can prove to me that taking an egg and sperm in the light of God’s Word is creating a living soul there. I can not picture someone receiving a soul by putting two “dust” parts outside of the act of intercourse that was created in a laboratory then when it was commanded by God from the beginning as in Genesis 3:19.

      If you say God can’t touch them, What does that mean ? God can touch someone because of their human spirit anyways. Spirit spirit. The spirit man. Their human spirit is still there. They still can be judged. You will face God with your spirit, no ? Are souls or is a soul not immaterial subjects of mental properties. Which is the five senses and the sixth sense which is Faith ?

      Hence soullish people, knowledge of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil, not born again people, ruled by their soul and not first by the Holy Spirit when born again and then our spirit, the human spirit that rules the soul.

      How does a sperm and egg in a petridish get this ? I really would like to know. You said it in that way/ To me it would look impossible. The two things that are not alive long outside the womb right but inside the “system” of our bodies about 30 days before discarded. I think that the way we do intercourse is the only way to receive a human spirit first and then become a living soul because something supernatural is taking place there. Why would you fault it ? I think it is designed amazingly well for that purpose. It’s the right way to do it. No ?

      • @Jesse

        Your main point is that they don’t have souls, so I put it to you that Matthew 10:28 is not applicable to them.
        And also what must be done with Matthew 16:26?

        Mat 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

        I put it to you that your belief leads to the obvious conclusion: there is no soul to lose, so they might as well gain the whole world.

        Brother you are contradicting yourself.

        You said in your earlier comment
        “So if you “mine” sperm and an egg, there is only “dust” there because it will perish one day.”

        Later on you said:
        “Hence the soul is the combination of man’s body and spirit”

        You said:
        “…the way we do intercourse is the only way to receive a human spirit

        but in that same breath you refuted your own above statement by admitting that they too have human spirit.
        You also said:
        “God can touch someone because of their human spirit anyways. Spirit spirit. The spirit man. Their human spirit is still there. They still can be judged”

        Don’t you see an obvious contradiction here?

        You said it’s only dust there and that the human spirit is only received through intercourse. So where does their human spirit come from suddenly? You are now finding the human spirit in them because it causes problems for you when you must explain what happens to them when judgment comes.

        So by your own words we can conclude that if they also have human spirit in their bodies, then the soul is there.
        Remember you said man’s body + spirit = soul
        So you have actually disproved yourself here brother.

  62. @Jesse,
    The difference between you and Catholicism is that Catholicism rightfully believes the petridish baby is IN EVERY WAY a whole human being. You, on the other hand would have us believe that they are not fully human.

    The reason I dismissed your arguments as Catholic is because ever since the 60s when IVF was developed,the Catholics were the most rabidly opposed. They used all sorts of arguments including claiming that scientists were ‘playing God’. They also initially claimed the babies were soulless monsters, but they were sobered up by reality. So I don’t believe you ‘discovered’ these arguments by yourself; you read them up somewhere and being convicted, you are packaging them as your own.

    I hope @tbjoshuawatch suffers us to digress a bit further.
    1. Supposing Jesse you killed a petridish baby. Would you be guilty before God of murder?
    2. Does God care for them any more than soulless animals?
    3. Can a petridish baby be born again seeing they have no spirit man to be born anew?

    • @Jesse
      Whether or not you think this view can be supported theologically, I think you need to consider the very troublesome repercussions of the belief. You’re basically creating a subclass of humans who have no more value than animals. People who may be your friends, relations, colleagues, or their offspring are not considered fully human? I hate to be guilty of fulfilling Godwin’s law, but the parallel to Nazi ideology is difficult to ignore. Vooke’s questions above are right on point, I hope you consider them.

  63. @ Vooke, @TBJW,

    Thank you for your reply, give me an opportunity to react as best as I can. I do not have large vocabulary in my English as I wish to have, but here goes:

    Yes, why would that be wrong because after all the Scripture that I quoted is correct in application concerning all this. Genesis 3:19

    No, which Scriptures do point towards this ? Please tell me where they are.

    Everything without Faith is sin. And yes, going against God’s will is sin. I don’t understand your stance about that. Why would you think otherwise ?

    Maybe, I should point out to you that with the end result or the sexual deed something supernatural is happening that is not directly proven by my debate here but if you think about it long enough you will see “that that” is just the case here based upon Genesis 3:19 Scripture. Here is where the breathing of God comes in to give us our Human spirit and after it comes in contact with our flesh (sarx) we become a living soul.

    Or even to point out the word Pneuma which is literally means breath of life, or supernatural life, not life as infused as a soul by putting out a petridish baby. The Soul is not the same as the Spirit. They are separate. Even though others say, Soul and Spirit are the same, it is not. The Spirit is elsewhere in the body then were the soul is.

    We can refer to this to the following Scripture:

    Genesis 6:3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal their days will be a hundred and twenty years.”
    You see with the advance of the above was not needed before Genesis 6:3, it came after when humans started to drift away from God. Death started earlier after Genesis 6:3 than when Adam or even Methusalah were around. You understand that don’t you ?

    This became even worse with later time as in:

    Psalm 90:9 For all our days have declined in Your fury; We have finished our years like a sigh. 10 As for the days of our life, they contain seventy years, Or if due to strength, eighty years, Yet their pride is but labor and sorrow; For soon it is gone and we fly away. 11Who understands the power of Your anger And Your fury, according to the fear that is due You?…

    I did not mention uterus. I mean that during the climax in the height of the sexual deed something supernaturally is happening. If you have done it, you know what I am saying. Just sit down and think about it. If you have not done it, you could not understand, I understand that, I don’t blame you. So this supernatural happening cannot be reproduced in a petridish and inject a sperm cell in a egg by some scientist. Just keep thinking about it again. And Ask God to show you why I am saying this.

    I did not mention infusion in an uterus at all. Where did I say this ? But still it would be the same thing, a mechanized application that has no ability to infuse with the supernatural Pneuma power (Holy Spirit) and the human spirit originated from God to infuse a human spirit in a initial life which causes to be come a living soul after this. Think again and see that it makes totally sense of what I say. Don’t read up other matters what others say. Think about of what I say and do not level it with your own knowledge that is from another source that is their knowledge. Think what the Holy Spirit is saying to you about it.

    Forget about Catholicism because I did not read up on your links you gave me on purpose for that. I am not interested in Catholicism either. I could tell you some very unusual things that I have experienced somewhere regardin this. But that is another story. We are on a journey. They journey to walk and in the end to return to God and being judged upon that.

    That’s great, (use your head by all means) but God is above and beyond Emperical Evidence or Human facts and those Laws He is very easy in to breaking them apart to His Will this is because He is God and can do that at any time in the before past, present future and those things who are after the future. He is the Alpha and Omega. He first finished then He started.

    According to Genesis, before the breath of life, Adam was lifeless.

    It was the beginning of a human with a human spirit breathed in, the command of God was to it by a certain means that was not written there.

    I have not studied Egyptian and Hebrew made pyramids. Have you ? Although I have watched many documentaries about it, opinion is still divided and not applicable here in out example. You feel that I am not on to something ? Don’t discard the baby with the bathwater, my friend. It’s something that would surprise you if it was revealed to you one way or another. You cannot just say with God 1+1 = 2 because you should know that God is beyond that. I know He is beyond that. It’s just that we have not experienced it and if you would be narrow minded it could cause you to miss out that can be something that is true.

    Things come by revelation, I am not saying this is it, but I was just sitting down about it and it was not silent. It entered my thinking process. And it would be for a reason.

    You are saying there is no life with out a soul ? I never mentioned there was not a spirit. But what spirit ? Ever watched for example American Idol or other reality programs. When you watch close you see sometimes two different spirits operating. One that is not from God, one that is. It’s just not only talent or raw intelligence. Some are driven by something else and I am not speaking about the demonic. Others you can see it is a gift. A supernatural gift that others cannot do. As written in:

    Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Behold, I have called by name Bezaleel the son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. God says to you today: Thus says the Lord: “Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name, you are mine.” Isaiah 43:1

    “And he hath filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship; And to devise curious works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass, And in the cutting of stones, to set [them], and in carving of wood, to make any manner of cunning work. And he hath put in his heart that he may teach, [both] he, and Aholiab, the son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan. Them hath he filled with wisdom of heart, to work all manner of work, of the engraver, and of the cunning workman, and of the embroiderer, in blue, and in purple, in scarlet, and in fine linen, and of the weaver, [even] of them that do any work, and of those that devise cunning work. Then wrought Bezaleel and Aholiab, and every wise hearted man, in whom the LORD put wisdom and understanding to know how to work all manner of work for the service of the sanctuary, according to all that the LORD had commanded.” (Exodus 35:31-35; 36:1)

    Same was with Jesus in Isaiah 11

    11 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord; 3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.

    No I did not read them up anywhere. I promise you I have not.

    Why can’t it be soulless people ? We can’t point out who is who about that. But we know that there are soulless people in deed and action. Perhaps these are the one’s ? Why always blame the Devil ? Is it not suffice that most problems come because of our own choices and not by the Devil. There is no such thing as the Devil made me do it. It’s a matter of making the right or wrong choice.

    There is no wrong in Heaven. So all things parallel wrong must line up to that and not visa versa. God does not line up with us, but we line up with God about all these things and matters.

    About soulless monsters, Look how Atheists go about it, they make themselves to a Law as well guide themselves by their own invented moral and immoral compass and not because the Spirit of God is working inside of them as is given in Galatians.

    If that is not so then the Bible would contradict itselves, which is the stick horse of the general Facebook Atheist.

    @ TB Joshua Watch,

    It’s a bit disappointing that you were looking or comparing this as Godwin’s law. No Nazi-ism was taking place was it now. You can only find this in discussions when you are talking to a fanatic fan of a certain cult leader who defends them with that sort of behaviour. And whatever you have seen from myself is not the person that is actually underneath you might have seen in some posts.

    There is two ways to respond on a post of the opposition.
    1 Ignore them.
    2 Argue with them and sometimes go to extremes (perhaps Godwin’s Law) could be applied there. But still would not be an issue when there is a time out for a bit.

    I have considered any question. Except not the crazy questions concerning TB Joshua that are being brought forward if I have to see him as the “messiah of our time, or prophet of our time” because I can easily put that title to myself or on you if I or you just have enough tricks upon my/your sleeve and have many followers to defend myself instead of myself alone saying it.
    It’s the reason why TB Joshua does not say it about himself, he just let others do his filthy legwork for it to become famous like that. Because the last few years are just simple man-made inventions and marketing ploys.

    • @Jesse,
      Am sorry but you have said a lot of nothing.

      The distinction between soul and spirit is irrelevant to this topic. We don’t need to ‘learn’ about that from you…not now.

      You need to explain how petridish babies are different from yourself. What do they lack, a spirit/soul? So why are they alive? If a spirit is necessary for animation, then absence of the spirit means no animation which is contrary to what we know abou petridish babies.

      For your information, ‘soulless’ and ‘heartless’ men are not living humans without these, rather it is a figure of speech. The wicked, even the vilest of all blaspheming atheist are still as human as the ‘holy’ you.

      Orgasms are spiritual? That’s a load of horse manure.
      They say when you dig yourself into a hole the best way out is to stop digging.
      Animals are also known to climax for one, and secondly, even if it has spiritual implications, it would not help your argument seen all orgasms don’t result in pregnancy. Now we have moved from sex to orgasm as the magical moment life/spirit is released into the womb. This is plain silly because conception does not follow orgasm but the sperms have to swim up and it may be up to 6 days before fusion.
      It is silly because you can bet some if not all childless couples get several orgasms with no fruit of the womb.

      I’m using an iPad. iPad Air 64GB, wifi+cellular. this is an Apple product. If Jesse sat down and has an epiphany and he conceives(pun) the idea of an iPad Air in his head today (9/1/2016) some two years, two months and ten days since Apple released it, I’d be well out of my mind to doubt that you stole this idea from Apple. Similarly, when you regurgitate some 50 year old Catholic arguments against IVF perfectly down to their jargon, I’d be out of my mind to call your ideas original

      Finally, I see you entertain another crazed idea that petridish babies have spirits just not from God. The same questions still apply
      1. Since God was never involved in creating them, would He charge you guilty with their deaths?
      2. Did Jesus die for these spirits He never created in the first place? Can they be saved?

      • @ General, TBJW, @Vooke

        No, how did I disapprove myself. You clearly did not understand of what I was saying.

        We are talking about having no soul with the application of a egg taking out of the ovaries and taking sperm and then put them together as one by IVF or whatever means that is possible to do.

        How can there be a soul created there. You are saying that the human spirit of God is already in the egg and the sperm ? Yes or no ?

        Then I said, two parts that are just some matter (I called it future dust as when it dies, decays) could not have the human spirit of God contained, prove me in any scripture that that is so. You can’t. Nobody can in that way. I need evidence, not speculation. But I said with Genesis 3:19 that that is the way as God commanded it and I believe it works like that. For me that is the fact of that God’s human spirit is deposited and that at the moment of the height of sexual intercourse and after that there is a living soul.

        @ Vooke,

        I do not believe that petridish babies can have a soul.
        There is difference from those that are conceived of in God’s commanded way. That’s how our bodies on a spiritual level operate.
        The difference is, is God infusing the human spirit in a petridish, explain me how this can be. It it done because it works to have a baby but it still is put back in the womb right ? It does not stay in the petridish. When will the human spirit then appear and after the human soul ? Why not explain that to me if you say you know it from a Scripture ?

        You say don’t use Scripture. And why not ? Is that not the standard to live by ? For unbelievers not or those with empirical data conclusion to it because it works. Because it works, like as in two wrongs makes one right ? No !!!! It does not.

        You say, “It is silly because you can bet some if not all childless couples get several orgasms with no fruit of the womb.” But that is also not a rule is it now ? You can have orgasm outside anywhere but still you can experience something is happening to you that is regarding this.

        I have no understand of “fruit of the womb”, because that is just a African expression which is just a cultural way of saying things. It means nothing.

        I say a whole heap but you do not (want) to hear it. None of you. You (all) closing yourself up because you think you need to explain it by 1+1=2 which is not the case here. God will determine when the human spirit is deposited inside not because of someone who is experimenting with something and it works. I was focusing upon the soul creation.

        That is important because that is what is all about in the Christian life. No ?

        Yes indeed, gain the whole world but lose your own soul. Something that is very applicable on TB Joshua. Who is gaining the whole world and throw away his soul because he is doing culpable homicide without that God commanded him to build a hostel for someone to live in there. Most of the preachers do so. Most people do so too. They do their own thing and then run with it. Apply the world’s system on it and then say, Glory, Glory to God about it. Saying He was doing it. No !!!!! He was not. God is in the business of illegality ? Where do you read that ? God said, Let’s go and make petri dish babies, hurray ! You succeeded. Where do I read that ? God said something else from Genesis 3:19 and that is how it is done. Not trying to read between the lines and do what can be done because science CAN do it to satisfy a need by carnal ways of their own agenda and plan. That is what I am saying too. Is anyone listening here or what ?

        There is a good plan and it works, IVF, there is God plan and works because it was God’s Plan for you.

        Now nobody can check out what happened in SCOAN after they have so called “fruit of the womb” because I know people who got their “anointing water” and prayers in SCOAN and did they did get nothing. Even if they did IVF and it still did not work. That is why I am fed up about the SCOAN parade of shenanigans of their so called miracles.

        Nobody sees what happens after. Where do they go and what is happening 24/7 right after that with a camera on it.

        It’s the total reason why they don’t want TB Joshua to go to Court or be in prison because nothing will happening as is staged in SCOAN. Period. That’s my story about it, AGAIN !

        And I now have noticed that online in the African media outlets they are on purpose removing my posts and putting the articles that I respond upon they remove them from Google search as well. It is clear how scared they are of me. Because one can never say anything negative about this serial liar TB Joshua and his serial liar gang he works with. I am the living proof that he incapable to do anything with his fake god he allegedly serves that can do all these remote thing but it never reaches anywhere than falling on the ground in his stupid snake head swamp, plus all the idiotic follower he has. He does not serve anything near of the true God. He is a marketing scam with workers in it to succeed to deceive you.

      • @Vooke,

        You say “Orgasms are spiritual? That’s a load of horse manure”

        Really ? Why are doing Tantric Sex then ? It’s not anything that I support, but it is exercised for that kind of reason. To connect to the spirit world.

        And again you misunderstood me. There is a spiritual thing, matter or situation (if you like) happening with an Orgasm which is the part what God does. And that can only happen if your have intercourse and I believe there is the way where the human spirit is released by God.

        I want concrete evidence from you or anyone that the human spirit is released or is already there in two parts egg and sperm with a petridish fusion.

        Genesis 3:19 is proving it because it says in the second part they became a living soul. Is it God’s Word or not ? What is so hard to understand there ? There was no petri-dish available in Genesis was there now to replicate that.

        If it is not true than God’s Word is lying there. Or God is lying there, or Moses the writer is lying there. You say it because it possible that is why it happens that way. Think again. Sit down and think, is it really happening this way just because it works ? Was it a command from God ? No, it was not.

        pléthunó: to increase, to be increased

        Original Word: πληθύνω

        Part of Speech: Verb

        Transliteration: pléthunó

        Phonetic Spelling: (play-thoo’-no)

        Short Definition: I increase, multiply

        Definition: I increase, multiply.

        HELPS Word-studies

        Cognate: 4129 plēthýnō – properly, made full, especially to maximum capacity (potential); hence, “multiplied; to increase, multiply” (A-S). See 4130 (plēthō).

        Where did it say in Multiply, take petri dish and create a billion people like that and in that way. There was no such thing there, but because it is there, you say it is the right way to create a living soul ? Really ?

        Please again tell me where did God command it like that ? Do we live by God’s command or by our own capability to do what we want ?

      • @ vooke,

        Finally, I see you entertain another crazed idea that petridish babies have spirits just not from God. The same questions still apply
        1. Since God was never involved in creating them, would He charge you guilty with their deaths?
        2. Did Jesus die for these spirits He never created in the first place? Can they be saved?

        a. No because it was just two parts of matter. Egg and Sperm. Nothing was there was it ? No living soul. Does it begin to breathe already after the fusion ? No. It does not.
        b. Jesus died, but you say there is a spirit there, I say there was no soul, get saved does need your vocal confession according to:

        Romans 10:9-10 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

        9 that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

        Where are they confessing in the Womb then ? Here ?:

        Psalm 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother’s womb. 14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

        Is that the answer to it ? No I don’t think so.

    • Jesse,you really think these beautiful children are not fully human and are soulless???
      How terrible and heartbreaking that can be to their parents if they ever hear you claiming that but i hope they won’t ….

      These women were desperate to have babies ,and IVF was the only option for them ,so consider that God had blessed them too as any other family because they too deserve it.


    • @Jesse
      Seeing a certain category of human beings as being less than fully human (in their case Jews/Gypsies/disabled, in this case petridish babies), is the root of the Nazi’s evil ideology – so I don’t think the comparison was inappropriate. I’ve not read every word of your subsequent responses, but from what I’ve seen all your arguments are conjecture, there aren’t any scriptures that link the creation of a soul to the act of sexual intercourse. I’ve also not seen you attempt to answer the very pertinent questions that vooke and General have put to you, for example:
      1. Supposing Jesse you killed a petridish baby. Would you be guilty before God of murder?
      2. Does God care for them any more than soulless animals?
      3. Can a petridish baby be born again seeing they have no spirit man to be born anew?

  64. @Jesse,
    Let’s cut to the chase.

    Specifically answer these questions;
    1. Do petridish babies have a body,soul and spirit?
    2. If yes to #1, is any of these three ANY different from those of the naturally conceived babies?
    3. If yes to #2, briefly and explain the differences

    Please, to keep it short, don’t mention or even quote any scriptures. Just state your views in the fewest words possible . we will require your scriptural basis if at all later.

    Cc @tbjoshuawatch, @General

  65. The people who are commenting against prophet TB Joshua are the same people and you are less than 10. Go for delivarence at SCOAN Prophet TB Joshua he is the one going to deliver you. Prophet TB Joshua is not just a prophet but he is a great PROPHET a general in the kingdom of God, a prophet to all nations, a prophet of our generation, a humble prophet who only speaks the truth. Hate him or love him you wont change him, you can talk bad about him, lie against him but you wont change him. There are many prophets in the world but Prophet TB Joshua stands from the crowd. He is different, highly annointed, demons hates him, you too hates him.

    Oh I forgot you are full of depression thats why you are criticising my spiritual father, a father to many. Prophet TB Joshua is protected. Read Psalm 91.

    • @ Nkateko,

      Everyone is under that Psalm 91. What are you on about. God did not write the Bible for TB Joshua alone, but for everyone who is believing it. My father always quoted it day and night by heart. You are full of rubbish. He is protected because of people around him who carry him on a platter because they all eat from him of what he steals from others with trickery.

      But I tell you what, let TB Joshua come out to a designated place that I will assign and we will set up cameras right there and have observers around and then he can try to deliver me.

      But I am telling you I will deliver him right there and then. I will show the world that he is just a mere man with no powers at all.

      Jeremiah 13:23 “Can the Ethiopian change his skin Or the leopard his spots? Then you also can do good Who are accustomed to doing evil.

      Nobody is depressed here then him alone. After him laying hands upon me in 2007 and 2009 I never felt in my life such a depression had come upon me that I never had. So if it comes from anywhere that “depression”, it comes from him and this spirit that he carries around inside him that is transferring from him to others. He just transferred all his depression he had himself that day about that his power generator had broken down for the ump-teemed time again and was leaking in which he need quick 30,000 dollars for. So he came in with a lovely made up story of that we all had to give that it hurts a little. Scam prophet.

      A father to many with stolen money from his brainwashed people. Anyone is doing it including Atheists. You can always be a “father” to anyone if you get sacks full of money to throw around what you siphoned off from other people. Because money buys people. Especially when you are poor.

  66. @Jesse

    You said: “No, how did I disapprove myself. You clearly did not understand of what I was saying.”

    Actually you did disprove yourself. You clearly did not understand yourself. You said test tube babies too have human spirit.
    You said: “Their human spirit is still there. They still can be judged.”
    Please do tell us who is the provider of this human spirit, so that we can show you from scripture that you are pushing nothing but a fallacy here.

    You said this to avoid the embarrassing theological problem which is this: if they don’t have the human spirit/soul (which is your actual claim) then surely God can’t execute His Divine judgment on them as He would on those who have souls.
    I don’t like using this example of them being cast into hell, but I have to use it to illustrate a point. I put it to you once again that they can get away with their sins because God cannot punish them in hell. You can’t refute this without contradicting & disproving yourself.

    You are accusing us of bringing speculation instead of evidence, but your theory of “…God’s human spirit is deposited and that at the moment of the height of sexual intercourse…” is devoid of evidence and it is nothing but speculation, I’ll show you:

    I have been married for 7 years now, I understand that ejaculation & orgasm are actually different processes. They usually happen simultaneously but they are different process. It’s possible that one can happen without the other. It is possible for the male sperm to get released without reaching the “height of sexual intercourse”.

    Having said this, here is a case study:
    A man & his wife are in bed together and the above scenario happen. His sperm gets released during the act. He unfortunately suffers a heart attack during the intercourse and he never reaches the “height”. He is hospitalised for a week & then allowed to go home, and he is told to take it easy for 2 weeks. However his sperm inside his wife managed to swim & fertilise the egg. She became pregnant & they have a healthy child.

    Does this child have a human spirit/soul?
    Whether you answer yes or no you would be contradicting & disproving yourself. But I would like to know.

    BTW, Genesis 3:19 says nothing about reproduction

    • @ General,

      The problem lies here with me that I am not able to express myself as I wish to, I simply do not have the right sentence construction and enough words to perhaps make you understand.

      What scenario was that ? Is there actually a case study like that or was that just a hypothetical scenario ?

      Even though it is good scenario to try to debunk this, but did this actually happen this way and do you know somebody personally like that and if so I would like to see a referral to that scenario.

      I apologize I meant Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

      I do understand that Adam means (to be Red (Soil, Earth)). But after that he turn to flesh right ? The same with Adams rib turned to flesh and Eve was created.

      and Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

      If it is not true, then could you tell me where then the human spirit comes from and where ? It can’t be equally divided in either in the sperm or in the egg. And when the fusion takes place, it’s not a breathing human as in a living soul. With emphasis on breathing. You have to breathe to become a living soul. Breathe what ? Pneuma in Greek, anapnoí in Hebrew, It’s called Chi in Asia, Prana Yama in India, etc etc.
      Just a few examples.

      Holy Spirit is Breath of God. How do you make one become a living soul without the dynamics of intercourse and God is not involved, because the heart attack did not happen by the first stroke of intercourse was it ?

      But my return question is, does the child indeed have a human spirit according to you and why ? Just because it is alive and kicking ? I am not talking about breathing as in and out with your lungs to sustain yourself with oxygen.

      Your human spirit is not telling your brain and lungs to breathe in an out is that what you are saying ?

      • I was not trying to do private interpretation as in:

        2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

        But I still don’t understand allegation of the fallacy as such because there is still no Scripture that actually points out that you conceive in a petri-dish and that there will be a living soul coming out of that.

        I am not satisfied about what has been given as evidence about that. Besides that if SCOAN claims that they can “produce” with barren people with “anointed water” or “morning water” a baby, how can it be that the “anointed water” or “morning water” cannot heal Racine still wearing glasses for example or someone else who is there I know still have autistic tendencies. Or somebody who was so called prophesied to and they would have a baby next year and it did not happen. She still (the womb) discarded the conception and went on bleeding. I really don’t get that. Can you ?

        So there must be another thing taking place there, clearly. People are being whisked away or going home or whatever and are not been shown 24/7 of what they do then so we could see the “miracle” they claim they have taking place.

      • @Jesse

        If you don’t understand that ejaculation & orgasm are actually different processes which can sometimes happen at different intervals and that sperm can be deposited without the “height”, it shows that you are just speculating without full understanding of how human reproduction works.

      • Jesse: ‘….But my return question is, does the child indeed have a human spirit according to you and why ? Just because it is alive and kicking ? I am not talking about breathing as in and out with your lungs to sustain yourself with oxygen.

        Your human spirit is not telling your brain and lungs to breathe in an out is that what you are saying ?….’

        If you wish to understand how we can tell the presence of a human spirit, you may want to study its absence from the body.

        In Genesis, you conceded Adam was lifeless before God breathed His Spirit onto his body. This means the spirit is what ANIMATES the body.

        In Ecclesiastes and Luke we learn what happens at death.

        Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV)
        Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

        Luke 16:22-23 (KJV)
        And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

        So before the spirit is put in man, he is a mere lifeless body, and at death once the soul leaves the body, the body is effectively dead.

        These two points mean spirit=life=animation.
        When we look at that petridish baby living, we can tell they have a spirit even when we can’t see it. We in short can tell the presence of the spirit of a man in him by the presence of life.

        If the petridish baby is alive without the spirit, this means Adam was equally alive BEFORE God put His breath in him. This is contradicted by what Genesis records.

        Your ‘discovery’ while commendable for applying some effort to arrive at it, is clearly not only illogical but it contradicts scriptures

  67. @ Vooke, TBJW, General,

    Here is another matter that I want to bring forward regarding petri-dish babies.

    What is next ? Designer Babies, Hybrids, Changing DNA so our personality alters or even intelligence, Graft on DNA to create a new species, Cross breeding between races, Cross breeding with animals, Breed one type of race so others die out ? How would God Judge that ?

    How does a human spirit get in there from the beginning as you all said and become a living soul then ? Do you see what I am coming from ? It’s much more complex than it just stays with one discussion.

    PS. I have not read anything up about the Catholic stories you were referring to. I never did, I never knew about it. I have no reason to lie for it. I appreciate the comparison regarding the Apple iPad, but it does not stick on me.

    • No @Jesse,
      There is nothing to see where you are coming from am sorry. For purposes of this discussion, stick to IVF.

      IVF and artificial insemination produce life contrary to your prediction that it shouldn’t. Where does this life come from?

      • @ Vooke,

        You were the one that stuck to IVF. I am not promoting it (IVF) to prove your point you claimed you had or have. I agree to disagree.

        Because I believe they could not have a living soul. Even if you claim that God is the spirit of all flesh. Yes He is of all flesh but that means something totally different. It means that all humans are under his control but it does not mean they have a living soul in the case of IVF treatment. I don’t know why you scampered out of my other questions of What’s Next ! It is clear that the science will go that way at some point, it’s only time that is between and how the church is thinking about it. Because if it is concerning Science, this is already what they want to do but are stopped on it because of morals from Christian people who would vote against it. But it only takes time and those morals will be broken and destroyed and then they move on. First it started with Cloning, the next thing is Designer babies and so forth.

      • @Jesse
        “Why do I have to repent ? So with other words, if TB Joshua is teaching false teaching and lies, he must repent too. No ?”
        Come on, that’s just silly. Everyone in this discussion agrees TB Joshua is a false teacher and needs to repent. That doesn’t mean we don’t all have wrong beliefs to repent from too though.

        All the rest of your responses gives me flashbacks to debating with the likes of Soe or Kiki (before he went mad). Long, meandering responses that completely dodge the pertinent questions that would actually move the conversation forwards. I don’t know about @general and @vooke but I don’t think there’s much point continuing this conversation until you have given a simple answer to the questions posed a while back:
        1. Supposing Jesse you killed a petridish baby. Would you be guilty before God of murder?
        2. Does God care for them any more than soulless animals?
        3. Can a petridish baby be born again seeing they have no spirit man to be born anew?
        These questions are extremely important because they get us straight to the heart of the issue, and clearly demonstrate the dangerous trajectory this thinking could go on. This isn’t just a matter of theological differences, it’s a matter of human dignity and value.

      • @ TB Joshua Watch,

        I hear what you are saying, but trust me I am not mad or crazy like they are. It’s something that was I pondering about. I understand it is meandering. That’s just me. Nothing to it. I am very different than most people. I just don’t like injustice and unfairness and things that are swept away under the carpet with a religious sauce on it. I am very disappointed myself in how much Africans are thinking in general and their expression. When I read the replies on these African Media Outlets. I am just surprised in how much they want you to be destroyed or killed when you oppose them regarding TB Joshua. If they had no restrained, I am sure they would kill me straight away if I would turn up at SCOAN’s front doors or at Prayer Mountain and I am super good swimmer. I swim in Oceans, Rivers and Big Lakes without fear to the worry of many who see me doing that. Because if TB Joshua thinks he is safe I will be there in five minutes on his front steps and confront him. But of course they won’t let me do that. So I won’t try for now. 😉

        Sorry, I apologize about having a ping back to Soe and Kiki, I understand a little where you coming from because I have been wondering where they get all their inventions from. I guess, I am just a bit angry about the injustice (it’s a thing that I have generally over all when that happens) and is muffled away with religious excuse drivel from TB Joshua that he claims and his followers he is innocent in what he is doing now with his Offense stories. I can’t imagine how perhaps Just Wonder is or would be feeling. I hope Just Wonder is alright. I would not have liked either to have my family somewhere knowingly being brainwashed somewhere.

        I think or believe that if you put a sperm and egg together and you destroy it the same day, it’s not murder. Simply because there is no living soul there. So sort of nothing is lost. It could be that if after several cell divisions that that changes.

        I believe God cares a lot about animals and has given us these as our close accompany in all sorts and forms. The world would never be the same without them. Just looking at how many are already have been made extinct makes me furious in thinking about it. I love animals. They are fantastic and sometimes even better company than humans. 😉

        I might have to think about your third question perhaps a bit more to figure out an satisfactory answer for all of you. I might have run too fast with it.

        It’s just thoughts that I have had for a few days about it. It’s just how to formulate my words better hopefully next time. Not sure if I could figure it all out. I guess I shall have to pray and ask God about it why I got these thoughts. Maybe there is a reason, maybe there is not.

      • @Jesse

        Thanks for the reply. I think you’re missing the wood for the trees though. You’re right, we all have views that others deem heretical, but the issue we are talking about is not equivalent to differences about spiritual gifts, or baptism, or church structure (for example). The issue we’re discussing is about human value. General, Vooke and I believe that ALL human’s are made in the image of God, no matter how they were conceived – they all have value because of their humanity. Whenever people start questioning whether a certain subset of humans are “fully human” which whether you mean it or not is how your “soul-less” argument comes across – people will react very strongly against it, because there are so many lessons in history teaching us how dangerous this kind of view is – think Nazi Germany, the slave trade, apartheid South Africa etc…. You say you are angry at injustice – well that same instinct is what is driving the strong reaction against your point of view.

  68. @Jesse,
    You keep on excusing your incoherence and contradiction as inability to express yourself yet you keep on rambling (sorry to tell you this) on and and on about the same point which means you have comprehended.

    Is there any point of debating with somebody incapable of expressing themselves while at the same time they cling to some views strongly?

    Can I suggest that if you can’t express yourself you don’t attempt to express yourself?

  69. Jesse: ‘Vooke,

    ‘…I do not believe that petridish babies can have a soul….’

    Since they don’t have a soul, can you explain to us why and how they live like any other zygote and are born and LIVE?

  70. @Jesse

    Let me make a few points & hopefully lay this issue to rest bro

    The Bible tells us that God is the giver of spirits of ALL FLESH

    Numbers 16:22 “And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of ALL FLESH, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?”

    Thus it is folly to argue that some flesh don’t have spirit, especially if this is coming from a Bible believing Christian. And then in another post admit that “their human spirit is still there”, but you can’t tell us the source of this spirit.

    I put it to you that ALL FLESH, that means ALL HUMANS have the spirit which comes from the God of the spirits of ALL FLESH, who is the God of the Bible.

    The Bible has warned about all sorts of evil that will come to pass. We are warned about false prophets & how to identify them & avoid them. The Bible warns about the mark of the beast & the beast’s deeds. All sorts of predictions are written in scripture to make us aware & prepare us. We are never warned about “soulless” fellow humans. That means we are not invited to make such claims & it is silly to try & “identify” them & mark/label/discriminate them. This is nothing but diabolical. We ought to love them, pray for them, encourage them and share the gospel with them like we do with our friends, relatives & neighbors.

    Imagine a person using Genesis 1:11 to refuse to eat fruits/veges whose seed wasn’t initially planted on the ground, but started in the lab. God designed that a seed will germinate and grow to be a plant/self replicating food source. It would be silly for a man to add extra requirements to make the plant acceptable, like the seed should have germinated in the ground & not in a pot/vase. This is exactly the pattern of your argument.

    In 1952 Stanley Miller and Harold Urey tried to create some sort of life [bacteria/germ] in the lab using water, methane, ammonia, hydrogen and an electrical spark to simulate lightning. The attempt failed. God of spirits of ALL FLESH did not give spirit to this toxic mixture. This proves that you don’t just create life. Life has a way of getting started which is designed by God.

    God designed that life should begin when the male seed fuse with the female egg. When this happens, life as we know it develops – the spine, brain, limbs, lungs, kidneys, heart…basically all organs, form harmoniously & work exactly as God had intended for them to.
    If you look through scripture you will see something interesting, children being referred to as the “seed of…”

    Seed of Abraham my friend (Isaiah 41:8)
    Seed of Jacob (Isaiah 45:19)
    Seed of Ephraim (Jeremiah 7:15)
    Seed of Zadok, (Ezekiel43:19)
    Seed of evildoers (Isaiah 1:4)
    Sons of the sorceress, the seed of the adulterer and the whore. (Isaiah 57:3)
    The seed of the righteous shall be delivered. (Proverbs 11:21)

    Take care to notice in the previous point #3 that it doesn’t say the “breath of…” but rather the “seed of…”. So your theory of “breathing dynamics of intercourse” as necessary to create life is just grossly out of sync with overall scriptural language.

    If you want to appeal to Genesis 2:7 as the pattern for means of reproduction, then obviously we are all doing it wrong. We should all follow Genesis 2:7 and make sculptures of our children from the dust of the ground & breathe through their nostrils.
    Genesis 2:7 is not even talking about sexual intercourse, this is just bad theology! Sorry.

    Hitler declared that Jews are an inferior species (ape like) therefore are not persons. This allowed him to slaughter millions of Jews.
    Earlier you said test tube babies are soulless and therefore nothing but “carriers of demonic entities”. Can you see the trajectory your belief is taking? You are laying a foundation for extremists to start taking out these fellow humans? No bro! You need to repent of this non-sense!

    The male seed & female egg are enough to get life started. This becomes the flesh as referred in the Bible and ALL FLESH get the spirit from God (Numbers 16:22). There is nothing like “soulless” flesh which is clearly alive. Your view is a fallacy & is unbiblical. Please desist from this unscriptural belief & love your fellow humans, this is your duty as christian:

    James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

    • @General,
      Your point #4.
      I had raised it but Jesse totally ignored it. I told him he was busy conflating between CREATION (of Adam) with REPRODUCTION

      We have the exact point where God placed the breath/spirit in man during creation but not so with REPRODUCTION. We can only posit that it happens upon conception/cell fusion. We do this because we know God considers a pregnancy as human as any other human.

  71. @Vooke,

    “Earlier you said test tube babies are soulless and therefore nothing but “carriers of demonic entities”. Can you see the trajectory your belief is taking? You are laying a foundation for extremists to start taking out these fellow humans? No bro! You need to repent of this non-sense!”

    You are wrong here, because that is not what I meant or trying to say. What is then the reason to be so obsessed to be delivered of what ? Is that not what SCOAN constantly brings forward that everyone needs to be delivered (of) ?

    Another person into that is Gary McGoff who constantly says this on his videos on his Youtube site. His obsession is the same (as) (with) TB Joshua. That is why he gets all hay wired when there is a “deliverance” is taking place and especially when there is “Satan” speaking there or whatever is taking place.

    That are the absurdities that is constantly been promoted in all these new African churches, which was never the case before. Nor is this practiced in the times of John Wesley, Spurgeon, Martin Luther, George Whitfield, John Knox, John Calvin, John Wycliffe.

    I feel sorry for all those Africans who are dragged out in the public to promote these idiocies week in week out. It’s a business. Because they woke up to the fact that the white man in US, Europe was not supporting them in their struggles so they invented these scandalous practices and lies to deceive them. Now it is common practice and they are laughing big time about it how they con me, you and everyone with their inventions.

    That is what I am steering at here. All kinds of false teachings that are all over and then be justified because you all of sudden need deliverance. One must start thinking of those who do these things they need deliverance from their own mindset, lies and practice of it all.

    • @Jesse

      “You are wrong here, because that is not what I meant or trying to say”

      You said:
      So if then in future will be designer babies they would be soulless individuals. These would only be “programmed” or “learning” to be knowing a moral and immoral compass because of intellect and self-righteousness. Even up to be a lawless human individual and be a more convenient vessel to be a carrier of demonic entities because there is no soul there.

      This is what you wrote bro!
      @Vooke is right, maybe you should stop trying to say anything about this topic.

      • @ General,

        Don’t you see there how SCOAN basically is teaching the same. You need deliverance, all of you, with other words, who has appointed such outrageous claims that that is necessary.

        And yes still in a later state of development it is highly likely that they will be a vessel of either way by their own sins. Why would you disagree ?

        You don’t speak for everyone, nor an I, nor can SCOANs methods speak for everyone as long as you go there, they will take your money and give you an “experience” which they claim is from God.

        Because it is clear for me if you question it all everybody has an answer to it what they validate. You tell me, do you beieve anyone would think like this ? No they dont because in their own limitation of what is possible they restrain matters to what they think is correct.

        And because they don’t give a hoot whether two wrongs are right in SCOAN and in other African churches they will continue to do this marketing package. And if you don’t get anything out of it, you can go home and thank you for the money we will expand on your cost anyways. Hahahahaaa!

  72. @ Vooke, General

    Thank you for your reply.

    Why do I have to repent ? So with other words, if TB Joshua is teaching false teaching and lies, he must repent too. No ?

    Why does he not do it ? Why does he keeping up the lies as I have written in so many thing he has said, which he did ?

    Did I say that we should not love our neighbor ? If God abhors liars, should we not abhor liars ?

    Another thing:

    Seed of Abraham my friend (Isaiah 41:8)
    Seed of Jacob (Isaiah 45:19)
    Seed of Ephraim (Jeremiah 7:15)
    Seed of Zadok, (Ezekiel43:19)
    Seed of evildoers (Isaiah 1:4)
    Sons of the sorceress, the seed of the adulterer and the whore. (Isaiah 57:3)
    The seed of the righteous shall be delivered. (Proverbs 11:21)

    Seed means in all those Scriptures offspring, not literal seed of the sperm.

    seed used of offspring

    seed of the serpent Genesis 3:15
    Seed of the woman Genesis 3:15 (cf. Hebrews 2:14)
    seed of Abraham Genesis 22:17-18 (cf. Acts 3:25); Psalms 106:27; Galatians 3:16, 19
    seed of Israel 1 Chronicles 16:13; Psalms 105:6; Jeremiah 2:21
    seed of David Psalms 89:3-4
    seed of man Jeremiah 31:27 (cf. Daniel 2:43)
    seed of beast Jeremiah 31:27

    Nowhere it talks about that the human spirit is deposited there.

    seed used with other representations

    the holy seed which represents the elect remnant of Israel Isaiah 6:13; Romans 11:5
    seed which has parabolic representation Matthew 13:18-40
    mustard seed which represents faith Matthew 17:20
    seed which represents the word of God Luke 8:11; 1 Peter 1:23
    sown seed which represents the buried body that is raised in a different form 1 Corinthians 15:38-44
    seed for sowing which represents Christian giving 2 Corinthians 9:10
    the divine seed abiding in the believer 1 John 3:9

    The only Scripture where the human spirit was deposited and the Holy Spirit was:

    Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

    Still none of you have been able to explain what I said which is, After the Human spirit is deposited as you claim that is done in a petri dish, thereafter was a living soul. Which is not. It can’t ever be. It’s out of the question. There is still no proof from anyone of you about it. You are all speculating or guessing it is. Mind you, human spirit and living soul are two differing matters.

    • @Jesse

      It is clear you don’t understand scriptural language. Of course it is based on the literal sperm seed, watch this:

      God talking about Solomon, David’s son
      2 Samuel 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

      Abraham’s heir will also come out of his own bowels
      Gen 15:4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

      The writer of Hebrew (possibly Apostle Paul) understood it exactly like this. Here this idea is even taken to another level by stating that Levi paid tithes to Melchizedek while he was in his father’s loins.

      Heb 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
      Heb 7:10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

      Mustard seed, virgin birth, etc, are not relevant & it is obvious from their contexts that they are not talking about human reproduction.
      The burden of proof is still on you to show us where children are called the “breath of Abraham”, or the “breath of David” or “breath of whoever”.

      • Heyyyy, General,

        I never stated breath of this person or that person, I spoke of breath of God initiating the human spirit and I stated that I believe that in putting “someone” in a petri dish (which to my opinion is a sin) because all things without faith is sin…..That someone coming out of there is no living soul.

        See and here it is where you see no followers of TB Joshua wade in because all they are intereste into is playing off their broken record. TB Joshua is a man of god and he will take your money and expand his empire with his own lies. Because nobody asks anything g but go with the flow as the menu is presented of so called spoirtual manifestations of you being full of demons and have to be dragged out of the crowd for that to put up a stupid scene.

        Africa’s new ministry’s lies is the bread for those that deceive you day by day and have no shame or simply don’t care than how they get hold on your money to deceive another person who walks in foolishly. That is why he had nothing on me to prophecy or tell because I prayed I right there and then for Jesus to hide my spirit and soul in the Blood of Jesus. He was speechless.

  73. Here another thing.

    If you feel or believe that you have brought me down with saying I have to repent of what I am thinking. Why is no-one of you able to project the same thing on TB Joshua ?

    Because he is not accountable to anyone because he thinks or feels his position is greater than everything ? Proving himself to be the Lawless man and above the Law of the Land believes his own lies and that of his staff that supports him of whatever he does ? Yet still takes recourse to the Law opportunities in which he divert the course of Justice. Because he feeds the poor, the underprivileged, is so called a “father” to whoever he chooses to give money to, but can do and take a non command from God and build illegally and without building permit and he calls still himself a man of God as well his followers. And as a result 116 people died because of his decisions and his staff. So he can allow murder by his own actions by none action and resist justice at all costs by resistance to testify himself why he allowed to build illegally and without building permit. Such a man is not a man of God, but a distorter of God’s Word and keeps lying in the face of myself, you, others, his followers, the whole world and the world still promotes such a man.

    So what did I do ? I just told something, did not harm anyone with it at all. I did not allow to let 116 people die because of it. While he can do this day in day out. How fair is that ? You can come upon me as a ton of bricks but why is this con man still in the seat of his scam empire ?

    That is why they don’t want him to be isolated all by his own because he will fall down like anyone else who would be confronted like that.

    Shame on the Law application of Nigeria. Money and fame triumphs. Justice is corrupted by the distortion of God’s Word for own benefit. And the people love it so.

    • @Jesse

      Really? This post is irrelevant. Even christians are told to repent for embracing false doctrines, go read Revelation 2 & 3.

      • @ General,

        No it is relevant because after all its not about me here but about TB Joshua who still walks around and got away with choosing by his own actions with murder.

        They camp is divided in two still. Those who are also full of sin in heir own lives and lies, say yes TB Joshua is man of God because he does all charitable works and supports the economy. So we should let clever marketing themselves murderers run the country to get by then, becauserved they are an asset.

        Where do I read this in the Bible to apply as such. If it is not there, why is it not applied to TB Joshua who lives in the middle of it and don’t care that because of his choices another man is on death row by hanging.

        More VICTIMS ? Does TB Joshua also go out there and then compensate their widows ? With Bible money of which he stinks of. More than the time he did his chicken pen cleaning. Does anybody hear me ?

        Why can he get away with sins in the natural and we can’t ? Just because we are no assets fr a whole country. So the blood of victims fallen to the ground is just ok.

        If I have sinned in te natural and I have killed someone in the natural by my choices, should the law not apply according to Deuteronomy 16:18 no matter who they are. It’s clear it’s all about economic progress and not wipe out your personal sins be compensate it by your own meas IF you have the money for it.

        This is how it is. They have mad my Saviour Jesus again to a spectacle over personal gain and personal glory. Step down TB Joshua you are a very bad example to follow like that. Why dont you repent of your sins publicly as I have to.You have no shame.

      • @ General,

        I never made it that it was a doctrine. I thought out of the box which is OK to do. But not entirely absurd, because no one knows when the human spirit is deposited and you become living soul. It’s only written in Genesis as I pointed out. Creation or reproduction came from you all and not from me. After all the question still is there at what stage you become a living soul.I do not believe it is with two pieces of perishable matter outside a womb. God designed it as doing with intercourse and no other way. If you don’t get children, what faith are you showing to ask and believe God for one. So with other words humans just take their own moral and immoral compass to be justified by it all. It’s the same for every sinner including TB Joshua and staff who think that man of God means loads of dong things for others. So do Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, Scientology church and whatever cult does for their own. Tat is why I bring this up. But no one is listening anyways. Proceed with murdering your fellowman and glorify yourself is the way forwards.

  74. @Jesse you are not a serious debater. You are hopping from one point to the other. If somebody did this to my face, I’d rightfully conclude they are out of their mind.

    I honestly have no idea how you can jump from IVF to TB Joshua.

    • @ Vooke,

      The reason is because you are not listening whatsoever. You want your convictions supersede mine because you feel that yours are the better answer to it.

      The reason I bring TB Joshua into it, because he does exactly the same things. Whatever he says, they accept it. Let me ask you, do you accept what TB Joshua says ?

      Which side are you on ? I have not lost my mind. I can’t help it that it does not make sense to you, maybe you have lost your perception and cognitive abilities to understand. Why blame me for your lack of understanding because it does not fit your frame of thought.

      Is that not what SCOAN and TB Joshua always does. Always say something different and then deny they said it or not even acknowledge it ?

      And keep building a carnal personal empire that God did not command them to do.

      If Islam, Hinduism, Bhuddism, Scientology Church is not from God but thrives like crazy is it because of my choice or somebody else’s choices ?

      I hop because I show you the ways of those that deceive you and millions of others. You say no because whatever you say only stands in this discussion. And you get support from others because they value more that me. Because they feel or believe that you are more intelligent than me. So do TB Joshua followers. The value this liar more than me or you or anyone and they do what they want anyways and they say, nananananah and put their religious drivel connected to it to justify their means. Does it not disgust you ? Does it not appall you ? Because they can play church in a building or a stadium and get some actors standing up and pretend they are possessed with the most bizarre stories ? That is what I am saying, you are not listening because you probably like TB Joshua better than me because he has a big scam empire.

      Why is it that TB Joshua claims and others that his reach is all over the world and is incapable to even reach me. What god does he serve then ? And all the others with their lies. It shows their overblown inflated ego there by their followers because they are in a book, African media outlet but when I write the have to delete it because Don’t touch their god. Their pacifier and liar and make financial gain from people like me when I went there with manipulating stories that I have to give so it hurts a little. But he never gives himself. He gives from another’s money, yours, mine, somebody else and slams himself on his chest with his followers of how great he is.

      So if everybody would give me all their money for the funny stories I hang up then my followers can also promote me ? Can I then chose what I want ? Is it ok for me to build illegally without building permit and 116 peopled die ? NOOOOOOOOOOO ! I can’t and I am not allowed and I will be put in prison and have to stay there because of what I did.

      You still don’t get it. You never will. None of you ever will. Why is this website here ? Is it about me ? Or is it about TB Joshua. Because he does not care about it anyways. Because they are with the majority and want to keep up a lopsided thinking process to make progress economically and by lies and to deny blind girls to stand in the prayer line and tell them to go home and watch this hell inspired Emmannuel TV. To make himself the pinnacle of it all. With the Name of Jesus attached to.

      I have not lost my mind. I say it as it is. You say, I have lost my mind when I say, Why can someone not be accountable when they made a choice and 116 people died.

      I have something to say, Nigeria does not listen, the world is not listening because I am saying it as it is. The world wants LIES ! And spit in God’s Eye ! And say, we do it our way, God sit back and let us show you what we achieve with 116 people dead. This is applicable to ANYONE. Including myself.

  75. What @Jesse is doing is usually done by students who don’t have answers in a test paper. My classmate many years ago said it’s a technique to “steal points”. You just write a lot of stuff & hope some of it is right & the marker will give you some points. Perhaps he thinks by filling this thread with lot of off-topic text he can trick readers to think he has articulated his points well?

    Here is a summary of @Jesse’s heresies.

    Test tube babies are soulless/spiritless (no Bible verse was quoted to support this),
    Test tube babies can’t be saved by Jesus, (because it is the soul/spirit that is saved).
    Test tube babies are immune from God’s judgment. God can’t touch them.
    Test tube babies are nothing but convenient vessel to be a carrier of demonic entities

    • @ General,

      It’s not about my heresies and lies, it’s about TB Joshua who does exactly the same and in the decisions he made so that 116 people died because of his own heresies.

      The idea behind this is:

      Romans 3:18″THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.” 19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God; 20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

      Ok I quote from you:

      Test tube babies are soulless/spiritless (no Bible verse was quoted to support this),
      Test tube babies can’t be saved by Jesus, (because it is the soul/spirit that is saved).
      Test tube babies are immune from God’s judgment. God can’t touch them.
      Test tube babies are nothing but convenient vessel to be a carrier of demonic entities

      That is what you read out of what I said, but it does not mean that whatsoever. The same do the TB Joshua followers, no matter what you hold in their face, TB Joshua is god. He is above all and everything, including everything what:

      Romans 13:1-7 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God’s wrath but also for the sake of conscience. …

      If I can’t do it, I don’t have to be Pastor, Prophet, Shepherd, Apostle, because that is a human title, it means only something on earth for my followers and on a piece of paper.

      It just means I with such titles I can built illegally without building permit and if 116 die then I can just go walk freely. Because I am a Pastor, Prophet, Apostle and I am changing the economy with my philanthropy and have sustained a country with my own lies and deception toward people such as:


      And much more. It does not matter if I lie, make heresies, I won’t listen because TB Joshua can and he is my example in all what I am saying now. Correct ? So whatever TB Joshua says and does is always put away because he is god.

      Then II Thessalonians 2 is true. He is put above everything and walks about as being god in prayer mountain because all people have to bow down before his house in the middle and be on their knees.

      He is god because he can make any decision he likes because his followers will always hold him up for their own gain and peddle their country forward to feed the hungry with lies and corruption because that is what it boils down to.

      Tell me why can’t I make a decision if I was millionaire and beg for money all over the world and let people die because of I did it illegally and say and stand before the people and followers, I never build illegally, I never lied, I never did anything wrong. Then Jesus said, Go and sin no more, but they still do and cover up and think with their money they have paid their debts.

      That’s disgusts me.

      You said about test tube babies, I said before, I don’t condone test tube babies. Just as Jesus said, you shall not divorce but because of the hardness of your heart.

      You have not proven that test tube babies have a soul with any bible scripture because you don’t know the moment when they get a soul. No bible verse is quoted to support this. With God’s is the Spirit of all flesh has to to with that all humans are subject to God, whether evil or good. It has nothing to do with being a living soul after artificial conception.

      If test tube babies are not immune to God’s judgement, then cross breeding with animals who have no soul according to you, how can they be judged ?

      I never said convenient. What I meant is in a later state in their life by their own choices they could become carrier of demonic entities. Because if they had a soul, they had the will to choose between good and evil and apply to their choice. So they could never blame Satan, they were led away by their own lusts.

      1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

      • @Jesse

        I’m sorry but you are confused. I must say you have disappointed me brother.

        The burden of proof is still on you not on us. All throughout the Bible people are referred to as souls. If you see a human walking in the street, Biblically that’s a soul. You are the one who claimed that some humans are soulless and you never even quoted a single scripture to support this claim. Gen 2:7 says nothing about soulless living humans.

        I find it interesting that now you do say test tube babies are immune to God’s judgement.
        But earlier you said their human spirit is still there, they can still be judged.

        This is a mind of a confused man! Disappointing!

        Please bring up some Bible verses that prove that some humans can’t be judged because they are soulless. Bible verses NOT #TB Joshua #MH370 #BokoHaram #Chibokgirls #Ebola…blah blah blah…
        Just Bible verses.

      • @ General,

        Where am I confused. Is this a health care worker speaking who is specialized in confusion ?

        Because you can’t understand of what I am saying how come it is my problem now as being confusion.

        What you are saying is something like:

        In physics, the relativity of simultaneity is the concept that distant simultaneity, whether two spatially separated events occur at the same time is not absolute, but depends on the observer’s reference frame. That is how your way of thoughts work or operate. It’s how TB Joshua operates. He steals from you and me so he can be great because money answers all things. He has enough people running around with PHD, DR title to run that kind of things that are systems of the world.

        The same was with Professor Makinde, one of the guys who is a Professor in Mathematics and knows all about that. Except he can’t control his snoring that is so loud that the eleven days that I was there he had to snore the living hell out of our room. So that you are dead tired and can be ridden with this demonic spirits that are living in TB Joshua and go inside of you and rape you spiritually. Burn your brain out with whatever is going on. Why can’t you agree he murdered 116 people ? Why do you attack me about it ? Did I do it ? Why can’t you agree that the MH370 is not found by his personal “prophecy” relating to 15th of March 2014 that never materialized in any way or form. The MH370 is not found or has not been found. TB Joshua said and after all it was a lie that it would be found by the end of the week of 15th of March 2014. Is it a lie or what ? And so I can go on about it. I am not allowed to lie, but he can. I am not allowed to make a choice of building illigally, but he can. I am not allowed to use lawyer to defend my case but he can. I am not allowed to stand in church to tell funny story, but he can. I am not allowed to slap somebody on the head and tell funny story, but he can. I am not allowed to get him out there to drag him to Alzheimer sufferers because he has a white line to obey and the prophecies are written upon someone’s chest while David Duplessis said the same. He gets it from there or someone tells him and he does the same. I can’t say he is a con artist and masturbator on someones chest that has said this to many people. Everything is ok with TB Joshua, he can do anything and is fine. Nothing confusing about that. He is a serial liar and a cheat. He is supported by liars and cheaters. They are a cult. Nothing confusing about that.

        You know what I can’t stand ? People that do that. Millions of people love it. If I can’t do it, why can he ? When will he say this in public and before the whole world that he is actually a con artist and takes your money to be in the worlds books. Everybody knows when you have billions of dollars, YOU ARE KNOWN all over the world. Mark Zuckerberg, Warren Buffett, Bill Gates, Carlos Slim, Steve Jobs. Yeah, sure very confusing. Manmade glory. Manmade good plan. And all the followers run after it because they get money of it because they use the worlds system and pass it off as God doing something for them. Very confusing. Not to me though. Not at all. Very much as it is.

      • @ General,

        You say it is disappointing. I say, I think that is because I am. Why should I be brainwashed by anyone ? Why can’t I not look to right and then to the left or up and down ? Do I have to be in harness that TB Joshua lays upon me because he has even worse heresies. What were you thinking ?

        The story goes, take this “anointed water”, “wrist band”, “authentic card” and you are becoming the greatest man or woman on earth. Millionaire, private jet, 10 bedroom palace, 13 cars in the garage, 25 children by “supernatural intervention” because with Faith all things are possible. Why is not the whole world Millionaire or have what I describe above. Because he is a con man and his followers are con artists and liars because they don’t live like that. Only a few live like that. So do Atheists, Unbelievers, Satanists, Witches, Celebrities as some of them are millionaires because they milk out the worlds system of money and materialism and everyone is boasting about it.

        Well congratulations. I suppose everyone in TB Joshua Watch is millionaire. Especially Domi DG.

        I write a lot, but is passed off as saying nothing. You can’t tell me that nor convince that that is so. It’s as I am. Probably hated for it because it does not fit in your frame of thought because you have been taught by the system of the world in how to catergorize it so and so.

    • It’s not about points.

      It’s about being honest. I am not looking for approval from who ? Who is my standard ? Is it not God ? I can’t help it that I write so much. I just don’t have enough intelligence and brainpower like others who always squash me down because they are better articulated and can put things better in their pigeon holes and trays nicely or have more theological bible knowledge because of greater brain power and memory.

      I don’t have the ability like many in this world who can star with lying to them and walk around in grand glitter clothes. I have a pair of oars in my boat and I doing my best to get where I believe I must go because I don’t understand it why I am like as I am. I do not fit in any frame. Not because I don’t want to. Just because it’s unnatural and very annoying for me to be into it.

      That is what these lying scam prophets do, they put you in their frame because they tell you God is telling them this that and so and come up with inside information not from God but of media sources and pass it off because they are being told to say this to the masses. Crowd control they call this. Deceiving you on purpose to make themselves big and huge and loads of money and private planes. While 99,99 % must fly inside the pigsty of others.

      Did you see Elijah go around like it ? Did you see Nehemiah do that ? Did we see Jesus do it ? Jesus could have every cart to His disposal if He wanted to. Jesus could all the money of the whole of Israel. But He never did.

      That is why African Prophets thief from the white man and those that are rich with rubbish stories everyday and give it to others and make themselves big huge humongous so they can rip you off more because of the size they are. Because PEOPLE made them like that. Not God.

      TB Joshua disgusts me not because of what he has but because how he acquire it.

      My entire life I have come across these pastors and dislike it to the core of my being.

  76. Jesse : ‘….I do not believe it is with two pieces of perishable matter outside a womb. God designed it as doing with intercourse and no other way….’

    Well Jesse, I also believe all sorts of stuff but seldom will I cling to an ‘out of box’ idea that is contrary to common sense, logic, reason and scriptures, and especially WITHOUT ANY BASIS.

    Once again, since a sperm and ovum in a petridish can’t give us a soul, how do you explain the LIFE of petridish babies? Are they
    A. Dead
    B. Lifeless
    C. Undead
    D. Animated by other spirits?
    C. You don’t know

    • @ Vooke,

      You belief is that as long there is LIFE, then there is a soul.

      Where do you get this ? It’s not written anywhere. Yours is then also without any basis. You believe or think it is.

      I was not talking about a fully developed baby yet. I was talking about an egg and a sperm. You are saying they have both the human spirit inside of it because after your claim or others, perhaps doctors, scientists conception they have a human spirit and as well a living soul.

      I say no, because the Holy Spirit of God is not involved. It’s not a God idea, but a GOOD idea and because it works, it goes against God’s commandment to do it by intercourse as He designed it in the first place. You disagree. Why ? I want to know where you get the commandment from God to take petridish and take a sperm and take an egg, even from different parents and then put back in another just because it works, is the way God wanted it. That is the reason I doubt there could not be a living soul in there because it’s our ways of applying it and not as God said it should be. Do we obey God or do we obey Science ? Is Science for our convenience when it goes against God’s will. God’s will is multiply and then by what ? Intercourse as He designed it from the beginning. What right you have to say to God, sorry but I am going to tamper with your command and do it for my convenience so I can have a baby. Can you imagine how this would come over in God’s Presence ? Like you say to your father I am not doing what you say, I am doing it my way and when the consequences come, you blame God, make up a lie and use the Law to wriggle yourself out of your responsibilities because your were a irresponsible person that did his or her own agenda and program for the sake of gain, material acquirement, getting rich, glorify in yourself, let others peddle your around and put you on a pedestal because you are able to turn around a bad situation for yourself and others and tell them, look do like me and disobey God and put out your petri dish and make any baby you actually wanted because without it, you are a shame in peoples eyes. Why bow for peer pressure and not rest in God whether have gave you a baby or not. Why play God and say, look I can do that and spew God in the eye and say I did what I wanted anyways because I can, Nananananah.

      You are still not listening, nor millions of followers of TB Joshua who finds that his achievements must overshadow 116 people being dead. Now there is a great opportunity to blame God for those lives to be taken by willful determination to keep standing up and say.

      Proverbs 30:20 Such is the way of an adulterous woman; she eateth, and wipeth her mouth, and saith, I have done no wickedness.

      Like prostitute that says, I tattoo grace upon my neck because I live under grace so I can sin more. Really ?

      Romans 6:11 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

      Should we lie more and continue to lie so grace may abound ? Should we allow to build illegally and without building permit so we can build more buildings that were designed for 2 stories and make 6 stories out of it ?

      No, because that is not what God had said we must do. So someone need to be accountable, whether they are in the highest rank in the world. How will the Law be appeased ? How will Jesus be crucified again because of our sins we keep doing ? While Jesus said, I never put away with Law, what are you on about. Do we listen to man ? Or God ? Do we listen to smart clever stories ? Or God ? Do we obey what He tells us to do ? Or do we do our own thing and keep moving because we can and are pushed forward with human and carnal means because a good plan just works.

      You still don’t get IT ! I write for a reason, I write not because I have lost my head but because I have something to say. If God can speak to donkeys and stones, so He speaks through me.

      Can anyone trespass the Law and get away with it because they are big shot ? Then I also should get away with anything that I see fit or feel great and put the Name of Jesus attached to it and run with it because I just find it great to be religious and deceive the world with my deeds.

      • Jesse,
        More incoherent ramblings.
        The morality of IVF and AI is not in question, what we are disputing with common sense and simple logic is your baseless claim that products of IVF and AI are not humans, that is they don’t possess human spirit.

        Since they lack a soul or the breath of life, could you explain WHY and HOW they live?

  77. I want to write the following regarding of my other thinking that I have.

    Involuntary manslaughter

    Involuntary manslaughter arises where the accused did not intend to cause death or serious injury but caused the death of another through recklessness or criminal negligence. For these purposes, recklessness is defined as a blatant disregard for the dangers of a particular situation. An example of this would be dropping a brick off a bridge, landing on a person’s head, killing him. Since the intent is not to kill the victim, but simply to drop the brick, the “mens rea” required for murder does not exist because the act is not aimed at any one person. But if in dropping the brick, there is a good chance of injuring someone, the person who drops it will be reckless. This form of manslaughter is also termed “unlawful act” or “constructive” manslaughter.

    Manslaughter by gross negligence

    Under the law, where a person owes a duty of care (either by statute or by the neighbor principle) and is negligent to such a degree that consequently the law regards it as a crime (namely the person has been grossly negligent) and that person causes the victim to die, he may be liable for gross negligent manslaughter. The defendants in such cases are often people carrying out jobs that require special skills or care, such as doctors, teachers, police or prison officers, or electricians, who fail to meet the standard which could be expected from a reasonable person of the same profession. In R v Bateman the Court of Criminal Appeal held that gross negligence manslaughter involved the following elements:

    the defendant owed a duty to the deceased to take care;
    the defendant breached this duty;
    the breach caused the death of the deceased; and
    the defendant’s negligence was gross, that is, it showed such a disregard for the life and safety of others as to amount to a crime and deserve punishment.

    Don’t you all think TB Joshua should stand trial for that ?

    • After all by his own claims he said he knew about it from God by “prophecy”. <~~~ Liar, he did not know anything.

      He should be asked directly: Why did he do nothing ? Or why he sat upon his hands ? And his staff for ignoring everything that has to do with the approval of the plans to build the illegal hostel.

      Because there is no way in hell that neither knew something about it the illegality or had been involved into that by their own presence of it all.

    • Jesse you have all the time in the world to lecture us on zoology,history,Law…….., but for now, explain how and why IVF and AI yield LIFE. If God has not put His breath of life in petridish babies, who did?

      • @ Vooke,

        Did I say that IVF does not produce life. Why have you not read what I really said.

        My point was a living soul. I believe that IVF is a sin, and any other application in tampering with human eggs, sperm, genes, dna. It’s perfect. It does not need tampering, adjusting. It is because of sin that our creation is broken and has problems. It was not in the beginning like that. At least you could agree with that.

  78. @Jesse
    You are no different from SCOANITES who even in the face of incontrovertible proof that TB is a liar, they still choose to die with him.

    It is perfectly possible to have erroneous beliefs, but cling to them even after overwhelming evidence that they are wrong is silly and dangerous stubbornness

    • You can’t compare me with any SCOANITES whatsoever. And I am not willing to die with a charlatan called TB Joshua neither. Please do not add to that.

      Listen I brought it forward as a discussion. There could be many other things that you believe in that are also heresies. I plainly sat down, this is what came to me. 2 Scriptures were heard in my mind about it. I went from there. You three made a big hype about as if the world was collapsing. I can understand you all are on edge. But please do not compare me with any SCOANITES ever.

      I am looking for answers here, there is no need to become hyper. At least you all went go looking inside the Bible for it. Unlike SCOANITES they never do but always curse you for it or make sure that their idol is ranked on Ranker.com as super prophet which they did by their own means, not by anyone else’s. They opened an account, put the people in there, suggested it to Ranker or whatever they did and voila it’s in the Ranker.com website. It’s a human defense not a Godly defense.

  79. “Soulless” myth debunked by scripture

    Act 17:25 “Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;”

    If a person is alive then God gave that breath of life”

    Act 17:26 “And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;”

    If a person has blood, and there is only one blood, then it is God who made the blood of that person

    Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

    If the life of the flesh is in the blood and God made the blood, then anyone who has blood within themselves has life from God

    Moses understood what we all know
    Num 27:15 “And Moses spake unto the LORD, saying,”
    Num 27:16 “Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation,”

    Job lost everything but never lost his mind, he knew exactly what we know
    Job 12:10 “In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.”

    All flesh have spirit & God is the Father of spirits
    Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

    Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

    Sorry @Jesse scripture disagrees with you

    Tit 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

    • “Soulless” myth debunked by scripture

      Act 17:25 “Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;”

      If a person is alive then God gave that breath of life”

      Now my question to you is, is when a human is alive you are convinced by the above scripture that is proves it is human spirit and a living soul inside ? With that Scripture you do prove however that if you do it in the way God has commanded that it is like that. I have no problem with that. But I still want to maintain that if you do it by petri dish method, the scripture is not proving here that it is a human spirit with a living soul. And I mentioned also to you that this would be impossible because the method is done by human means and not by God involved into it. If that was so then all things that are sin is God involving into it and you and I know that that is not so.

      James 4:17 Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, sins.

      Act 17:26 “And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;”

      If a person has blood, and there is only one blood, then it is God who made the blood of that person

      There is blood in a egg and sperm ? Since when ? Nor either do breathe on their own. Flesh is not spirit, my friend. Spirit is something completely different. It’s separate from our bodies.

      Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

      Yes, that would be applicable if you follow the command of God, be fruitful and multiply. Not when you sin and make petri dish babies. You need to understand from me that petri dish babies in my belief do not have a living soul. You need God involved into that. It would mean that everyone one that does something on that level it is God inspired and it is not. It’s the self invented moral and immoral compass with the knowledge gained from experimenting on these things to satisfy a question who wants to go and sin with it.

      If the life of the flesh is in the blood and God made the blood, then anyone who has blood within themselves has life from God

      I would like to understand from you if you would be having the life spirit of the Anti Christ. What life is there you say, is the life of God ? That’s weird. Please explain yourself there.

      Moses understood what we all know
      Num 27:15 “And Moses spake unto the LORD, saying,”
      Num 27:16 “Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation,”

      Yes, I said to you before, it means that all flesh (humans) are under His control if He wants to or has to. But we have a free choice. If the man does not want to take over the congregation, God will respect that, but could decide to do something else instead. He gave us that free will from Genesis onwards.

      Job lost everything but never lost his mind, he knew exactly what we know
      Job 12:10 “In whose hand is the soul of every living thing<~~~, and the breath of all mankind.”

      That means animals have a soul. In whose hand is the soul of every living thing,…<~~~. Of every animal, of every brute creature, as distinct from man, in the next clause: the life of everyone of them is from him, and it is continued by him as long as he pleases, nor can it be taken away without his leave; two sparrows, which are not worth more than a farthing, not one of them falls to the ground, or dies without the knowledge and will of God, Matthew 10:29; of the soul or spirit of beasts, see Ecclesiates 3:21.

      Someone said that Animals don’t have a soul. I said instinct but clearly when you quote that Scripture in Job, it proves that animals have a soul too.

      All flesh have spirit & God is the Father of spirits. With your own words you admit that all flesh have spirit, but you don’t mention a living soul. The problem I brought forward, that I believe that making babies out of the commandment of God does not have a living soul. You deny this, Vooke denies this, TBJW denies this.

      Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

      Yes, if we do it as God commanded, I have no problem with that. Again I come back God is not involved in Petri Dish babies.

      I have even proof about something else. There is a video online of someone who has cut off the head of a fish for an half an hour and the fish is still alive and even some fish can be cut off their heads and are alive for SEVEN DAYS ! Go look it up. I can’t do all your home work can I ? 😉

      Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

      That scripture again does not prove to have a living soul. I am not sure if you understand the fact of human spirit and a living soul. These are two different “entities”, I don’t know the right word for it.

      Sorry @Jesse scripture disagrees with you

      Tit 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

      Oh come on, for this alone you could not call me a complete heretic would you now. We were discussing this freely and not because I am teaching this in a church and tell people believe of what I told you there.

      I am sure you have things of your own that are heretic or heresies. You can never be perfect with everything. Maybe you do something that also needs to be discarded.

      Also you can’t deny that it is a genuine good question and interesting to look at from all angles.

      Unlike TB Joshua followers they don’t wade in because they only are brainwashed to say TB Joshua is a man of gosh.

      You at least and others engage. I appreciate that.

      • @Jesse,
        You keep on denying petridish babies have soul and spirit from God. Who/what else can give life to them? What is the other source of life that is found in them?

      • @Vooke,

        I just gave you an example in the post that I replied to General.

        If a fish can still live with the head cut off and keep moving or even other fish move for seven days when you throw salt on them and is said to be “alive”, so what is causing that then ?

        I would like to know, what makes you alive ? The human spirit deposited in you or the living soul ? Or do you need both ? Or can you have only the human spirit and then be alive ?

        Do you agree with the fact that there is no blood in a egg and sperm ? And if you put them together and the first cell division takes place and there is still no blood. How can they be alive as such ? The above scriptures is telling us that General wrote that you have to have blood. Because then you have the life of God in you. Again, maybe I am not clear enough. How can there be a soul inside the fusion if there was no blood in the egg and sperm from the beginning after it was fused by a scientist ? Does it not take the Spirit of God to accomplish this ? How can a scientist replicate God’s spirit ?

    • @Jesse

      Unbelievable ! You’re the most unreasonable person ever seen in my life . Really ,how can you compare humans to Fish???

      -Num 27:16 “Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh*, set a man over the congregation,”

      The word flesh this verse refers to ,is the flesh* of HUMANS not of animals ! So why are comparing the incomparable ??

      The beautiful people you label as ”soulless” are ONLY HUMANS like you whether you like it on not. I can’t imagine people who think like you exist really .

      This is stupidity as its highest .You must stop it !! You’ve already gone too far now !

      We have heard enough of these nonsense, please STOP IT unless you are heading to become a new Adolph Hitler !

      • @ Liesse,

        Hey, if you find this strange, why do you not find strange that TB Joshua compares some people half man, half fish ? Those things are interviewed by some journalists.

        I am not the one that says this that people are half human and half fish.

        But anyways. So Fish is not flesh ? So what is it then ? Amphibians are not flesh ? Reptiles are not flesh ? Sheep are not flesh ? Cows are not flesh ?

        Please update yourself over here:


      • @Jesse ,

        Why you always trying to diverge from the main subject?
        These days ,It looks as if TBJoshua has suddenly become so useful to you ?? You are now using him as an excuse while making ridiculous statements against some people.

        As far as i know, in tbjoshua ministry ,the word ‘fish’ / half fish is compared to demons but NOT to humans .

        And if Jesse truly believes that TBJ is very wrong in doing so, why is he now following tbjoshua’s foot step??Even going as far as calling some humans soulless ?? Don’t you realize how much you are wrong??

        So you mean , to you Numbers 27:16 also refers to the ‘flesh’ of Fish, Amphibians, Reptiles , Sheep ,Cows ? Are you serious ?!

        Jesse,really i don’t think you even understand what the Bible is all about and why it was given to the humanity!

  80. Jesse you are increasingly sounding crazy, silly and incoherent.

    When cell fusion happens inside the uterus there no blood in either the sperm or the ovum yet to you God places the spirit in them.

    If you can force your head to concentrate for a few seconds, light would break through your ‘discovery’

    God put His SPIRIT in the man He had just created and he became a LIVING SOUL.

    This means there can’t be LIVING SOULS without SPIRIT of God.

    The opposite of LIVING SOUL is DEATH. So it also means without the SPIRIT of God there is DEATH.

    At DEATH, the SPIRIT departs from the body.

    If God does not plant his SPIRIT during IVF and AI, the petridish babies would not LIVE. They would never GROW.

    But IVF and AI gives us LIVING zygotes~~>embryo~~~>fetus~~>babies===LIFE!

    So Jesse, where does this LIFE come from?

    • @ Vooke,

      I have not mean putting a fused cell in a human body. Again I must put your back to the fact that I said and you came with it, not me.

      There is no living soul in the putting together of a egg and sperm and done in a petri dish. Don’t twist my words and then put it back in a uterus. It was you that puts it like this. We were talking about your suggestion scientist, then petri dish, then egg and sperm and then put together. There is no blood there at all. Because none of the egg or sperm have blood. So there is no living soul manifesting there. Don’t start to put extra things there that I did not say.

      • @Jesse drop this idiocy please!
        You are making up more and more nonsense as you go along.

        You claim ‘there is no living soul in the putting together of an egg and sperm in a petridish’

        Our position is simple, regardless of where the fusion happens, in or out of the uterus, we get LIFE and this means a living soul.

      • @ Vooke,

        “Our position is simple, regardless of where the fusion happens, in or out of the uterus, we get LIFE and this means a living soul.”

        That’s your opinion with Scripture X, Y and Z while none of those Scriptures are pointing out when there is no blood involved.

        It simply could mean that whenever the blood system is developed the embryo receives a human spirit and then becomes a living soul.

        As I said I was of opinion that it was initiated in normal coitus and to you lot coitus interruptus is the moment when that happens because God has made us one flesh. Man and Wife. Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. There was actually one person in SCOAN that was telling me that if you take two circles and overlap them half it happens in the middle of that. Whatever he meant by that. You think I am the only one that has different unknown views on it ? There are loads.

        With the normal intercourse there is total evidence that the human spirit will be deposited and a living soul during the intimacy of two people together. I still can’t imagine how a scientist is replicating this with a blunt object as a petri dish and a needle how a living soul is beginning to exist. How do you measure or know there is truly a living soul in anyone ? It’s not because they are alive. It’s because the miracle takes place that was commanded by God in Genesis as it was intended.

        Maybe you have a child out of IVF. You do not say. And if you have, then think about it if you have sinned before God in your own quest to insist that you must have a baby at all costs. And if you do did it, then please repent of your actions that you disobeyed God at His initial command to be fruitful and multiply and if it did not come you should have left it and not be ashamed of it.

        1 Samuel 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

        If you feel and 5 million others find that it is no big deal to do this, I would ask myself, when is this sort of experimenting going to stop and where does it stop ? I could not imagine that God is rejoicing over such ways that mankind thinks it’s just ok as long as I am satisfied with my need being met, not matter the ways I apply or wanted it. After all God will have the last Word on all of this whether you like it or not. I trust into that that He will. Just because God is allowing it, does not mean it is right in his plans for your life. To me it would be better to do what He said I must do, instead I did something that I need later to face Him for in Judgment.

    • @ Vooke,

      I quote “At DEATH, the SPIRIT departs from the body.”

      So the Living Soul does not go with it then ? Because both are separate astral bodies.

      Would you agree with:

      God treated man’s soul as something unique. As the angels were created as spirits, so man was created predominantly as a living soul. Man not only had a body, a body with the breath of life; he became a living soul as well. Thus we find later in the Scriptures that God often referred to men as souls. Why? Because what the man is depending on is how his soul is. His soul represents him and expresses his individuality. It is the astral body of man’s free will, the “organ” in which spirit and body are completely merged.

  81. @Jesse

    Sorry, but your questions are really stupid!

    You said: “when a human is alive you are convinced by the above scripture that is proves it is human spirit and a living soul inside ?”

    Really??!! Yes I’m convinced because the scripture says God gives life to all. It’s up to you to prove other wise ****FROM SCRIPTURE**** .

    You said: “With your own words you admit that all flesh have spirit, but you don’t mention a living soul.”

    Come on Jesse!! This is really getting increasingly ridiculous!! You are making this discussion impossible. You said yourself “…the soul is the combination of man’s body and spirit”. Even by your own words you should conclude that if the spirit is there, then the soul is there.

    You said: “Do you agree with the fact that there is no blood in a egg and sperm ?”

    What are trying to prove with this question?
    All petri dish babies have blood!
    Who gave them that blood?

    I believe the spirit of Anti-Christ is working through many false prophets. But they are alive not because of the spirit of Anti-Christ, but because they have breath of life from God. Paul was anti-Christ at some point but he was saved. It doesn’t mean he was soulless/spiritless or didn’t have life from God. So I’m not really sure where you are getting at with the spirit of anti-Christ.

    You know, at some point I really thought you were a rational man. But it is clear now that really there is no difference between you & @Kiki, @Newman, @Pearl, @DOMI DG…
    You only differ on perception of TBJ, other wise your mentality is the same – stiff-necked!
    You are putting your own theories ABOVE the ever reliable, ever true, inspired, inerrant living Word of God.

    @Vooke, @tbjoshuawatch

    This is going nowhere.
    Jesse is taking this very lightly & he doesn’t understand why I called him a heretic. The consequences here far-reaching. The only conclusion that flows from his heresy is that there is no point in preaching the gospel to petri dish babies, ultimately they can’t be saved, there is no soul to save. This is no different from what is happening in 1 Thessalonians 2:16. This is a major division. Are we not told to mark & avoid such characters (Rom 16:17)? Another character who stood against someone else’s salvation was called “child of the devil” (Act 13:5-10). This is very serious.

    Just because we agree about TBJ it doesn’t mean we can’t call you out. I still stand by what I said.
    The precious Son of God brutally suffered for all humans, and you want to stand here suggest it wasn’t for all humans? This violates 1 John 2:2. It also tampers with Mar 16:15, “preach the gospel to every creature”. You also said God won’t hold you guilty for their deaths. Your view violates not one or two verses but many scriptures. It does not harmonize with the Bible at all that’s why I’m of the view that:
    ****You are a heretic for advocating the unbiblical idea that petri dish babies have no souls to be saved!!****
    There is no such thing as “soulless/spiritless” human and you have failed to prove it ****FROM SCRIPTURE****. It would take inconsistencies, contradictions & denial of scripture for a christian to maintain this view as we have seen you do here so far.

    • Correction @General,
      There is a ‘soulless/spiritless’ human; a dead one.

      Jesse is just having fun with all of us here spewing nonsense,denying it and then contradicting himself before digressing. Quite an insincere fellow

      • @Vooke,

        That is not true, I am not having fun with it at all, I am dead serious and it is something that has come to me while I am alive.

        You make it to nonsense by your standards that you believe is the true standard of your interpretation of the Scriptures. You could very much be as wrong as anybody else would be. Just because you have company with General and make a front to me, it does not mean that your view or the Scripture is the right one.

        You should not compare me to any SCOANITE because I do not share any of their biblical views they have. I had only one thing there and it is to my observation blown out of proportion by the both of you.

        Again, does a petri dish baby with the initial fusion of an egg and a sperm (both have no blood) have a living soul immediately ? I believe it does not. Just because you say they are alive in a later state does not prove again not that they are having a human spirit or/and a living soul. You both cannot tell me that God commanded it in that way and that is functioned like that.

        You must see it as: I put my two wires of electrical wire in the local lamppost and I have illegal electricity with out the bill coming to me. Then you both say, Oh but it works, because the principle of electricity is minus and positive is working. While you both know it is illegal to do so.

    • @ General, @ Vooke,

      You both were running ahead of everything. It was you both that came up with the continuation of the petri dish fusion as a baby in a uterus. What do you understand about petri dish baby ? I understood, ONLY egg and sperm put together at the fusion made by a scientist. I did not particularly go further than that. It was both you who went then further to the next stages in which you claimed that that is the right way to do it and it is no sin. I said, it is sin. You both said it was not sin ? Yes or no ? Because if you are silent about it, you agree.

      Next, you can believe anything about me what you want. Just because we disagree about one thing I am insincere fellow ? Why ? That does not make sense. That means all that disagree with each other are all insincere fellows or ladies, children ?

      I disagree because of the following reasons. I am not sure if anyone of you is a petri dish baby. Could it be that that is why you are upset or angry about it ?

      You can’t just throw Jesus for all those sins done on purpose. This is only when you REPENT of your sins it is applicable. As far as I understand from you both that creating Petri dish babies is not a sin. Why is it not a sin ? Where is the command of God to make petri dish babies ? You tell me ? I can’t find any command from God about that anywhere. That’s a major point here. Nothing insincere about that.

      And further some of your interpretation of Scripture clearly lies into your own private interpretation. It does not mean it is acceptable as the correct standard.

      If I said, you do this or that but by the standard of such and such Scripture I reprove you of you of your own heresies that Petri Dish babies are a command from God and that He said DO it. Because you all know it is not what He said in Genesis.

      I am not going back and forth, I am getting at a point here. Living soul, sin, disobedience and doing your own thing is not what God wants from us followers of Jesus. It seems to be that you both do not agree about that instead you call me a heretic and the next Hitler. Now what is funny. Please go back and do not tear my initial proposal to shreds because you both kept adding and adding to it and made inflated as it is now.

      • Isaiah 29:23 But when he seeth his children, the work of mine hands, in the midst of him, they shall sanctify my name, and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the God of Israel. They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.

  82. @ General,

    I quote to you “You said: “With your own words you admit that all flesh have spirit, but you don’t mention a living soul.”

    Yes that is what I said only in the case of a petri dish baby when the egg and sperm are initially fused together. Like ermm 1 minute. You say it has a human spirit and living soul.

    Vooke says it is nonsense. Why is it nonsense. It’s 1+1 = 2. If God has set out the law of be fruitful and multiply why do you add to it oh but petri dishes have also a human spirit and a living soul and the initial state of fusion which I rejected as such. And you can put a billion scriptures here about it, none of them were applicable in my debate here concerning of what I initially started with. You both kept adding on it and building your own case and then put scriptures to it that when it is alive it must have human spirit and living soul because of Scripture X, Y and Z. That is not right and you know it. And it is not nonsense. You can make anything to nonsense because I can say everything must be nonsense because it comes humans. Humans are prone to say nonsense. Whether in small or large quantities. 😉 including yourself.

    • What I see here is that we all look at it from a different angle to my question or even statement.

      Please tell me with practical evidence (not with Scripture) that when you fuse an egg and a sperm together (both have no blood or flesh) in the initial state of fusion of 1 minute whether they have a human spirit and then become a living soul immediately and how that would be possible.

      Maybe I should have written it like that.

      • @ General,

        If you want to now if you like add then your personal question which is:

        When I destroy a initial fusion of an egg and sperm in my petri-dish, am I then a murderer ? Was Jesus crucified for that ?

        Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

      • @Jesse drop silliness.

        As we have amply pointed, we have no evidence of WHEN God places his spirit in man. We only speculate it is at the earliest, at the fusion of the sperm and ovum. What is clear is God regards a pregnancy as human and causing miscarriage by malice is punishable by death.

        Our position is simple; whether the fusion happens inside or outside the uterus, it leads to human life. You on the other hand are claiming that if it happens outside the uterus, there is no soul/spirit in it.

        We have consistently challenged you to explain how fertilization can happen outside the uterus and still lead to life and you just go around in circles and lengthy diatribes full of nonsense.

      • @ Vooke,

        You are adding things to your posts that is not necessary. What is for you is silliness is for other their goldmine. You are not the standard of to set my conviction by. I have put a simple thing forward in where you have added, subtracted, divided and multiplied with.

        You and anyone have still not proven in any way or form and by your own admission that you actually do not know when the human spirit of God and a living soul will be deposited. You call it nonsense because it does not fit in your square thinking mindset. You put everything to what data and facts must be, while they are not with the things of God. You keep fighting this. We started out with 2 Scriptures that was concerning this question that I proposed. None of you were happy with that. Because each of you said or were convinced in your theological view or conviction that creation is not reproduction. What do you mean ? Is dividing of cells of a foetus not creation ? It is, it creates new cells and new gnomes, dna, etc etc. So if it comes to that then reproduction is also creation. Some might even say colloquially We are making a baby. I am not dancing around anything. You just want to make yourself superior to insult my intelligence in calling it silly and nonsense.

        If you have no clue don’t try to add, subtract, divide, or multiply on my question because you have evidence from Google that IVF is working. What do I care about IVF ? It’s not in my interest. I would never do it. But you said, it was your way of proving it is evidence that there is a human spirit and a living soul are inside of those people because they are alive.

        You know an Amoeba is alive too. It moves and does things all by itselves. Go look closer to it. It does not HAVE BLOOD ! So my stance was since it was imperative for each of you all that if it has blood that is why it has the spirit of God and a living soul and that is why it is alive.

        Now that is what I call NONSENSE !

    • @ General,

      How do you know she has a living soul ? Is she born again ? I never would say, Jesus does not love her, or that Jesus did not die for her. But do you have to sin to make a point that it can be done ?

      While things are legally been satisfied by the law to have children like that, I do not feel that or am convinced that that is the way to go for as a follower of Jesus Christ.

      Two wrongs cannot make one thing right. I have said that before.

      You never have any personal heresies or thoughts which you ponder about ? Let me ask you some of you will tell you are not like that or do not have, but some of you are same the way and don’t tend to think out their own actions and thought processes and fantasies, just like TB Joshua because he and his staff have the same thinking brain as we have but they are using it to manufacture weird things after the fact of their own rationalizations for emotional decisions he and his staff have taken with the collapsed hostel, some of these decisions which they may not like themselves for and did all in their personal power to let no other look in further or what they did by hindering it to come forward in Court.

      It’s a shame that the so called men of gosh have to behave like that. Pretending they are innocent and misdirecting everybody with their mental brainpower and cunningness to get better off the hook and by telling you all kinds of agenda points they have and then run with it to acquire a new set of financial assets with their new cunning trickery of having for example an “authentic” membership card. What’s next ? A special chip with “supernatural” powers ?

      Funny that you can “transfer” so called “power” on a plastic card, just like on the prayer wristband and “morning water” to make one man have a stiff erection after 5 years of no affection and another to be delivered of a so called “dog spirit” and then pass it off that God was doing this by this kind of medium. Hilarious.

      • Jesse: ‘…..How do you know she has a living soul ?……’

        @Jesse, how do you know you have a living soul?

        The answer is simple; because you are ALIVE

  83. @ General, @ Vooke, @ TB Joshua Watch,

    I went to this website and asked my question there if there is any blood involved already after fusion in IVF.


    They said no but did not wanted to take the question any further. I am sure it has been asked before and/or they just don’t want to say it because of religious ethics or morals.

    Guys, I appreciate your replies about it, I really do. Sooo, Do I take the red pill or do I take the blue pill ? Or do you all take the red pill or the blue pill ? I would like you to slightly take it a notch down and less forcing me in a corner about it.

    It seems to be a very sensitive topic between both of us, but calling me heretic is not on it’s place. Let’s say I just have sat down and were pondering about it and that came to me. Maybe something is coming out of this for all of us. Do not throw the baby away with the bathwater. I know everybody would ask this about how this would be put together if they were asking where it all started which each of us.

    • Jesse,
      When you ask silly questions don’t be surprised you get silly answers.

      The reason this topic has generated heat is because it has amply demonstrated how presumptions and scriptures can lead an otherwise rational being down the rabbit’s hole in a New York Minute.

      Yours is not a theological position but nonsensical conclusions that are both illogical and baseless. I really have no idea why a grown up would subscribe to such

  84. Jesse you are losing it.
    You don’t even understand what IVF or AI is. Allow me to educate you

    Sperms are injected into the uterus by a device with the hope that they will fertilize an ovum. Once they do, the zygote develops into an embryo, then fetus and finally a human baby

    The sperms and ovum are extracted and placed in a petridish in the lab. Once they fuse, the zygote is placed in the uterus, and it develops into an embryo, fetus and a human baby

    Your point all along has been that the product of either of these two processes is less than human since they products of processes ‘outside God’s will’

    You went as far as claiming they are soulless since God ONLY places His spirit during orgasm and there is no orgasm in either of the processes.

    Our position is simple and so commonsensical that only the brain dead would miss it;IVF and AI gives human life/living souls, and since living souls necessarily mean there is a human spirit, petridish babies are in every way human as any other.

    Here is your dilemma; either petridish babies have a human spirit and are living souls or they don’t. If they do, then God must have given it to them for He is the giver of life and this is pour point so we don’t understand why or what you are insisting otherwise. If they don’t, then they should not be living, unless somebody else other than God plants the spirit in them, in which case we have ANOTHER giver of life other than God.

    The Catholic Church strongly opposes IVF and AI,and they once held that petridish babies are less than human. They quickly dropped this idiocy and presently they only hold the processes as immoral but the product as human in every way.

    Why are you a heretic? You subscribe to a totally unbiblical doctrine that concludes some humans are not human and therefore unworthy of the blood of Jesus just like cows

    • @ Vooke,

      Listen you are steering this discussion in your direction and favour and try to convince me this is not a theological debate, which it is. We are talking and comparing the Scriptures or what they say. You do yours, I do mine. It is still a theological debate for looking int the truth. You can’t just say, oh this does not make sense. It does to me and others.

      I have no idea what Catholics were purporting, neither am I interested of what they have to say on this subject. This is between you and me and other in looking how IVF as you wish is doing to people.

      Now I will put that in the next post. And I will give you an email address and you can ask it yourself to those for your own information. Will you do it ? Then come back here and tell me what you have gleaned. Then we continue.

      Kind Regards,


  85. @Vooke, TBJW, General,

    This is an excerpt of a woman that went through your proposed IVF and her experienced. Put yourself in her shoes and see what she went through. Is this what God wants from us ? She is even a Christian.

    Seven years ago I was trying to get pregnant, but it wasn’t working. After undergoing a series of tests, doctors found an issue which was making it very difficult for me to get pregnant naturally. They said that if we did In Vitro Fertilization (IVF), however, this issue should be easily bypassed and I should get pregnant from the procedure. We were supposedly the “perfect” IVF candidates.

    For those of you who are (blissfully) unaware of what IVF is, here are the basics of what is involved:

    The woman injects herself in the stomach daily for about a month with drugs that control her hormones and stimulate the production of multiple eggs.

    During this time, she goes to 5-10 doctor appointments for bloodwork and ultrasounds to monitor her “progress” (i.e., whether the drugs are having the needed effect).

    When the eggs are “ripe,” she undergoes outpatient surgery where the doctor removes the mature eggs. It’s possible there are no mature eggs and the cycle ends here.

    The doctors in the lab inject each of the eggs with the husband’s sperm to create embryos.

    The embryos either grow “normally” or die. It is possible for all the embryos to die and the cycle to end before a chance of pregnancy.

    After 3 or 5 days of growth in the lab, the doctor takes 1-3 of the living embryos and transfers them back to the woman’s uterus. (Other healthy embryos are frozen for later pregnancy attempts.)

    The woman injects herself with further hormones for two weeks while the embryo(s) have a chance to implant and form a pregnancy. This is the most stressful two weeks imaginable.

    After those two weeks, a pregnancy test is given to determine if it worked. If it worked, it takes another two weeks to determine how many of the embryos transferred successfully implanted (transferring two embryos does not automatically mean twins, for example – one might not have survived).

    It typically costs $10,000-$20,000 dollars for a single pregnancy attempt.

    If you haven’t gone through infertility, it’s hard to explain what makes an otherwise sane person go through this. You just have to understand that for many people (not all!), a level of desperation sets in where you will do anything to have the family you always assumed you would have.

    We went forward with IVF as recommended by doctors. After completing everything I just described, I anxiously started taking pregnancy tests at home each day.



    Nothing. Then the doctor called to confirm it: Nothing.

    Thousands of dollars. Boat loads of shots and appointments. More emotional investment than the dollars and shots combined.

    All for literally…nothing. I remember the shock of that first IVF result. I remember lying on my bed literally screaming in sadness/anger/frustration/agony/disappointment, rolling back and forth, pulling at my own hair. I share this soul-baring image simply to offer a small glimpse into the deep, dark pain that accompanies a failed IVF cycle.

    A single IVF cycle.

    I went through IVF four more times.

    I never got pregnant.

    On paper, “four more IVFs” is a simple sentence, an objective numerical summary of two years of my life. In reality, four more IVFs depleted my soul. I was left with more anger than one could reasonably imagine. I was left with more envious hatred toward people who got pregnant easily than any Christian would ever care to admit.

    And here is the promised Email address, please write my question as I said. Is there any blood in semen and the egg when put in the petri dish and fusion is applied. Then we talk again.

    If there is no blood in the fusion then there could not be a human spirit be deposited in that fusion, nor will there be a living soul according to your, general and TBJW X, Y and Z scriptures. Because you all claim that there needs to be blood in it to receive a human spirit and have a living soul. Do not stretch it further as what I have said. Do not add to it as well.




    • @ Vooke,

      My next question to you, is this how God wants it ? Did He command it to do IVF ? I am not sure why you keep pressing on IVF as a means to reproduce as a Godly valid means to have children. It seems to be that that is one of your stick horses you go around with and try to corner me in your debate.

      Forget about cows, Cows are also flesh as we have discovered in our link with the Bible study tools. Not sure if you have read it all or you just steam ahead and have only your own story in your cross hairs.

      Maybe you just don’t want to hear or see it or what I said. Both parties have offered their point of view. Now you never see SCOAN people engage in it unless you are one that is and just want to be a wind up and try to condescend on me I am not worthy to discuss this as an individual or not learned enough to see the difference. And that TB Joshua is the only one on earth to reveal this to us. But clearly he steers away from this all because he is busy to carve a name out for himself and have his letters in Neon Lights upon the Media Outlets but does not want to take responsibilities with his actions then paying out bribes to those who stretch out hands to him.

      Anyways, can you agree if there is no blood into a egg nor a sperm and even after fusion there could only be a human spirit and be a living soul in it if there was blood. Correct ?

      I don’t know why you are hammering so much on IVF. Is it not enough when I say it is sin ? Perhaps even evil. Because where does it all stop ? Every time the boundary needs to be extended as if that is the way out of what is going on with us. The more you temper with the original the more people try to be God in their own way and remove all ethics away from what a follower of Jesus Christ is about. Others would say, why stay in the dark ages. I did not say we should, but it is clear that we have a much more unstable world now because of the tampering we do with things and it now brinks upon threatening each other on a world scale because of the advance of technology.

      This is not the Message from God to do this. We have increasingly created distance between Him because many feel that God is outdated and that we have to go with figures and numbers on anything to have an existence. On look around show us how much we are destroying things instead of replenishing.

      Are you of opinion Vooke that it is better to do Science or stay with Natura ? You tell me. Is it our need to greed or is it our need to be met with patience and with dignity. If we then have to destroy all boundaries of morality why not drop it all now and see where it brings us ? And see how chaos will take us over and moves us down the drain. Because that is mostly what I am observing. As in anything goes as long as it is in the name of progression.

      • Jesse: ‘….My next question to you, is this how God wants it ? Did He command it to do IVF ? I am not sure why you keep pressing on IVF as a means to reproduce as a Godly valid means to have children. It seems to be that that is one of your stick horses you go around with and try to corner me in your debate……’

        These are super stupid questions. Did God command Caesarian section? Is this HOW God wants where women belies are all torn up as a ‘Godly valid means’ to have children?

        Nobody is ‘pressing on IVF’ bro.
        We all wish you learn to use your head and be a critical thinker. Think through the logical conclusion of your beliefs before you cleave to them

        Jesse: ‘….I don’t know why you are hammering so much on IVF. Is it not enough when I say it is sin ? Perhaps even evil……’

        Why am I ‘hammering so much on IVF’? It is because you did not stop at claiming IVF is a sin, you went further and repeatedly claimed that its products have no spirit nor soul and are not humans as such. This is the most nonsensical thing I have read in this blog.

        1 John 3:4 (KJV)
        for sin is the transgression of the law.

        You don’t go around calling things sin; you show the laws that are violated.
        If IVF is sin, you need to demonstrate what Law of God it transgresses. So far you have not.

        My broda, IVF to me is a normal medical procedure as any other. It is a last resort not the first one. IVF is for those who can’t conceive naturally yet they desire to have babies.

      • @ Vooke,

        “These are super stupid questions. Did God command Caesarian section? Is this HOW God wants where women belies are all torn up as a ‘Godly valid means’ to have children?”

        Now you come with Caesarian delivery ? What about it ? How do you think it all comes about such procedures ? Did you see Anyone in the Bible being delivered by it ? Please tell me where ? Was Jesus delivered like that ? Paul ? Peter ? John ? James, Ruth, David, Solomon ? Is it not because some other reason there is to it ? You yourself should start critical thinking dude. Why is it ? Why is it that we are sick ? Why do they have Ebola ? Why do they have AIDS ? HIV ? Why ? Oh come on, man. You are driving it now because mankind finds a man’s solution and not God’s solution to anything anymore. Is it not because everybody has drifted away from God ? Do their own things. Cannot live by Faith ? Walk with God. This is another thing where you blame me for the mistakes of others of their own choices ? Why you think it is they need a Ceasarian or whatever people need now. Is it because of me pointing them to God and have Faith in Him ?

        Ceasarian is a means to an end and because of people who think that sin will not affect them in the future. Sin crawls through generations if you must know. And in my time when I looked inside the Medical Encyclopedia there were plenty other solutions in doing this.

        Genesis 3:16 To the woman He said, “I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you.” 17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life.…

        Why are people so much in auto immune diseases ? Or have a load of autism on their plate. Why ? Because they want to live without God and do not want to see the consequences of their sins that moves through their linage and do not want to repent of it. After all they just keep crucifying Jesus day in day out and think it will not affect them, but it will ONE day. Not in your generation but the next on or the next one. You will reap what you sow. Come of it. You can go on about it until it is sore. Don’t blame me for it, or God, blame yourself for your actions and those in the past. Even though it says that they will not suffer for the sins of their fathers. But clearly everybody does and is. And it is not because of me, but because of their own will and choice.

        If there is anyone not thinking it is you !

      • @ Vooke,

        “Why am I ‘hammering so much on IVF’? It is because you did not stop at claiming IVF is a sin, you went further and repeatedly claimed that its products have no spirit nor soul and are not humans as such. This is the most nonsensical thing I have read in this blog.”

        Because perhaps you will not understand that:

        1 Corinthians 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence.

        Maybe your own intelligence is in the way ? Who knows. You can’t tell me you know all things, just because you looked more in to IVF and Caesarians you can think you have the upperhand here. Think again.

        You are using the intimidation that you have the greater intelligence here by putting another one down by being convinced that if the majority joins you it must be true.

        There are exceptions on the rule you are trying to set here. It’s a pity you can’t wriggle yourself out of a paper bag with all of it. All things are permissible and all things are sometimes not as though they are.

        You should stop batting your eyes down upon me in contempt. Instead you should think about that your foot in the world is greater than is should be and that you should come back to what Faith can offer you if you would believe that all things are possible for those that believe. Have Faith in God. That is what Jesus said. But I totally understand your actions as you did or think now. It’s not easy to live by Faith. And sometimes it is more suffering than answers to any part in our lives. But you will not get there if you call me stupid or ignorant. Please try to compress yourself rather then try to overpower another who had just a proposal. Have you even notices who you inflated yourself about it all ? And even some of you too. Because ? Is it because you find you have a superiority complex over others ? Or is this only manifesting when you feel you are in the upper hand with some knowledge that comes from things that are possible and you acquired yourself a shedload of information about it and then throw it at my feet to digest ?

        You bring in all things that I was not even interested into. Why should I ? Go ahead, do all your IVF and Caesarians that you want. I really don’t mind, it’s something that you advocate as the answer on all things naturally. What do you want, do you want Sicientia or do you want Natura ? Maybe Caesarian came about because women don’t want big hips anymore somehow and and men only look for women with no hips at all so there will be more women with genes with small hips and no birth canal. How could you even blame me for that ? That’s just preposterous. Stop looking everywhere man. Look what I said and give me a reasonable answer that satisfy even though you already have by saying that you don’t know when the human spirit actually descends in a body. Nigel(a) KnowitAll.

      • @Vooke,

        “You don’t go around calling things sin; you show the laws that are violated.
        If IVF is sin, you need to demonstrate what Law of God it transgresses. So far you have not.

        My broda, IVF to me is a normal medical procedure as any other. It is a last resort not the first one. IVF is for those who can’t conceive naturally yet they desire to have babies.”

        All things without Faith is sin. Ok. Do you have faith in God or in a Scientist ? Who of the two is better ? A Designer Pro or a Tinkerer ?

        This Law. Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is His good, pleasing and perfect will. Romans 12:2.

        You are saying here that God was writing out the IVF programme ? How ? How can you compare a Tinkerer with the Designer Pro ? Just because you wanted one because you can now go to the Clinic and buy one. Really ? Come on man. Think, Think ! Stay with God. If you receive one Be blessed, if you have to turn up side down all things to receive one because you can now, what are you doing ????

        Please, don’t even start there. It’s very clear is it not ? Get down and think about, was it not enough what I wrote up there of a Christian woman’s experiences ? The desperation ? The Pain ? Really man, step off from all of this. If you are looking for a baby, Look to God not to Tinkerers that want to be God.

        I read about prostitutes who write Grace in their neck and then tell you because it is there, that is why I can continue to do what I am doing. Really ? You want to put the boundaries like that ?

        Ecclesiastes 10:7 I have seen slaves riding on horses and princes walking like slaves on the land. 8He who digs a pit may fall into it, and a serpent may bite him who breaks through a wall. 9He who quarries stones may be hurt by them, and he who splits logs may be endangered by them.…

        Please stop your own folly now. Read what God wants from you, not what you always want or must have from God at all costs.

    • @Jesse
      Please please you are silly and at this rate you need deliverance.

      First, there are all sorts of things that can go bad with ANY medical procedure including the most ‘harmless’ dressing a minor wound. Drugs made my men (not God) have side-effects and some of them are quote adverse. Just talk to anybody undergoing chemo. So don’t you ever rehash this garbage ever in my face about how ‘bad’ IVF is because it never worked for somebody. Those idiotic arguments you may want to share with your fellow bunch of illiterates.

      Secondly, about the sperms and ovum. There EQUALLY is no blood in the uterus where fusion takes place. You really sound like a moron asking if there is blood in a petridish.

      Thirdly, you have been busy flapping gum all over here that you had an epiphany and you ‘discovered’ that petridish babies are ‘soulless’

      Fourthly, you lack ANY stand on anything you claim. In fact you appear not to comprehend what you are saying yourself let alone what we are trying to explain to you. Scriptures talk of those ever learning but never coming to knowledge of truth. There is no better description of your moniker than that. Am so greatly tempted to believe am either dealing with a kid or a serious joker out to be as a nuisance to everyone as possible.

      • @ Vooke,

        Oh Pulleasseeeee. You know what you do ? Go 40 day fast, pray, come on over and show your prowess regarding deliverance. You will see I will deliver you.

        Look man, you now even go to chemo. Go ahead. Do chemo. Enjoy. Let everybody enjoy their chemo. Just because the grocery is selling Mangos it does not mean I want them.

        Yeah how about your own trust and flapping your own gum into the world alone as your only answer to all your problems because it is available to you.

        Ohhh no, no ,no don’t even start with this comparison as being Jannes and Jambres, this is the same with so many that tell you they know everything and have nothing to show for themselves for it.

        Of course there you go again, the condescending batting of your eyes as if you are so awesome in your own sight and others support you with it. Is it because you feel you can’t really flag me down and that is why you now begin to invent things that are not even there. How come you can’t even give an answer that by your own admission you don’t even know when the human spirit descends or ascends in a body or out of a body. There are people who tried to measure that with something and they came up with 21 grams of difference. Yet you are here and think you have it all under control by using this pathetic reverse psychology in putting someone down because you have and issue with your superiority complex that has not been able to answer the most simplest question I made on the spiritual level. You only have attained to your own amount of knowledge you have of something that is third party information of textbook stories.

        Well since you are so awesome why is it Oh thou great Sage of speshul have you not been able to bring TB Joshua down with your IFV knowledge and Ceasarians or whatever natural knowledge you have acquired. If there is anyone a joker it’s you and it is from my side of the screen hilarious how you put your own knickers/pants in a pathetic twist.

      • @ vooke,

        Secondly, about the sperms and ovum. There EQUALLY is no blood in the uterus where fusion takes place. You really sound like a moron asking if there is blood in a petridish.

        There is no blood in a uterus ? Really ?

        The uterus is the medical term for the womb. It is the Latin word for womb. It is about the size and shape of an inverted pear. The uterus sits quite low in the abdomen and is held in position by muscles, ligaments and fibrous tissues. The uterus is joined to the vagina by the cervix that is also called the neck of the womb.

        Each month in women of the reproductive age group the female body secretes hormones that causes ovulation (release of an egg from the ovary) and periods (menstruation). The lining of the uterus is called the endometrium<~~~. It is made of several layers that include surface epithelium, blood vessels<~~~, glands and other tissues.

        Each month the endometrium grows thicker <~~~ to prepare for pregnancy. This is synchronized with the ovulation. If a woman does not become pregnant, the top layers of the endometrium with blood <~~~~ from the blood vessels<~~~ are shed. These flow out through the vagina in the monthly period. When a woman has her menopause the body stops production of hormones that cause ovulation and periods.

        You clearly have no clue Dr, PHD Know Nothing about Utereses.

        The embryo is planted WHEN IT HAS BLOOD in the Uterus sides. But here you come with something else again.

        You keep skitting left as the Skit guys on Youtube, right, up and down. When are you going to admit that there is no blood in a egg or a sperm put together in a petri dish. That is what I want to hear from you. All you have come forward with is a load of bunkum about IVF, Caesarians, Utereses and more.

        Is there blood in the egg and/or the sperm ? You don’t answer, you keep loading, stacking or whatever to want to overrule of what I was saying. Why don’t you drag the whole Encyclopedia Britannica on here so we are complete with your argument about it.

        Stop dragging things in here to build your case upon that was not asked from you. Blood, Egg, Sperm, Petridish you tell me. Then we can settle account.

  86. Jesse: ‘……Now you come with Caesarian delivery ? What about it ? How do you think it all comes about such procedures ? Did you see Anyone in the Bible being delivered by it ? Please tell me where ? Was Jesus delivered like that ? Paul ? Peter ? John ? James, Ruth, David, Solomon ? Is it not because some other reason there is to it ? ……… You are driving it now because mankind finds a man’s solution and not God’s solution to anything anymore. Is it not because everybody has drifted away from God ? Do their own things. Cannot live by Faith ?…..’

    Is there a better definition of stupidity than ignoring technology because it was never mentioned in scriptures?

    Jesus never used a blog; he read scrolls and so did all the apostles. Does it mean that iPads and computers are ‘without faith’?

    Only a hyper-moron thinks like that. What about transport? They only used four means; horses, donkeys, ships/boats and walking. Nowadays, we have added another called flying. Is flying against God because nobody in the bible flew? Do you fly? Is flying a ‘man’s solution and not God’s solution’?

    Faith is not living like men did 2000 years ago, that’s foolishness.

    An activity does not become ‘man’s solution and not God’s solution’, it is sin because it transgresses God’s eternal law as I showed you, otherwise brushing your teeth, driving, using lifts, microwave and ANYTHING not mentioned in the scriptures is sin.

    My friend you need to start thinking.

    • @Vooke,

      See that is now what you do. You take one thing and then you think I am saying the opposite or something that I never said in the first place. Ugghh. Where am I denying about technology is not benificial. I asked you the question regarding IVF, you went all overboard about it. I really don’t give a hoot about IVF. You can have it, go run with for my part get a three wheeler and skate around in a uterus womb with it, see if I care. Who do you want to give you your baby ? God or the Scientist Tinkerer. I am sure you don’t think one moment about it how you can get your own designer baby very soon or one with the DNA to your liking, perhaps an Overlord baby with special qualities so you can show off how you are so excited about technology. You seem to be a progressive sort of believer that defines themselves in how much they know and can deploy in their advantage. So tell me, what advantage has a Ipad over a pen and paper ? Is the greatest Book ever written not written on it and by it ? Of course you will set apart your iPad whatever Air 2-3-4 to make such an endeavor all by yourself as a sort of Franciscus of Assisi to rewrite your Bible with your Apple iPad and Apple IOS 9.2 version 11203 is it not ? What is it that you feel you have advantage into ? While people for thousands of years were living better than we do now and were more relaxed. I am constantly being approached by that kind of individuals that are burned out because of their great technology they have adopted. It seems that you can do more with your iPad than Peter or Paul or how about John on Patmos writing Revelation in a grotto. You are such a joker too all by yourself. Any idea what is next ? With your iPad under your arm ? I wonder if you can live with out it. Perhaps you are completely addicted to the thing and you need deliverance of it. 😉

  87. Jesse: “…..All things without Faith is sin. Ok. Do you have faith in God or in a Scientist ? Who of the two is better ? A Designer Pro or a Tinkerer ?

    You are saying here that God was writing out the IVF programme ? How ? How can you compare a Tinkerer with the Designer Pro ? Just because you wanted one because you can now go to the Clinic and buy one. Really ? Come on man. Think, Think ! Stay with God. If you receive one Be blessed, if you have to turn up side down all things to receive one because you can now, what are you doing ????….”

    I have given you a biblical definition of sin. If you have a better or a more innovative definition, please share it.

    May I suggest that God never ‘wrote out’ automobiles do aviation technology. God designed man to walk. Shortly thereafter man started using animals to move around, and then after that boats. Nowadays man flies through planes. Is any of these ‘tinkering’ with God’s created order?

    I’m sure you have ever used a plane in your life. Did you ever stop and wonder whether it was God’s will for you to fly?

    Does Boeing or Airbus design their jets ‘by faith’? Can we conclude their machines as sin as they are designed without faith?

    Utter idiocy!

    • @ Vooke,

      “Does Boeing or Airbus design their jets ‘by faith’? Can we conclude their machines as sin as they are designed without faith?”

      Yes they do use faith, they have to believe in what they have designed will stay in the Sky not just make a square box is it now ?

      And again, I don’t have to use anything if I don’t want to. We were not talking about inanimate things but about human lives. Different matter completely. You tell me what you need to improve on what God has created ? You want to give humans wings ? Or ship hulls, or how about rubber wheels so they don’t need a Sedgway. It should be possible if you change some DNA here and there, no ?

      You seem to be so impressed by it all that you can do what you want unregulated. Why not start picketing for let’s throw away all our reservation regarding ethics, morals and immorality and let’s go. Why put any restraint on anything and mess it up as good as we can with tampering with human genome and make it to Superman and Superwoman. Please go check with God what He thinks about all that ? It’s like going to the best Architect ever and kick him or her in the backside and say, Hey, you dork, and poke them in the eye and say, I will do it now by myself and you back off because you were useless. I guess that is your best shot you can give to me is it not ? Enjoy your progress. Do you feel empowered already ? What’s next for your vision ? World domination ? Manipulation ? Poke everybody in the chest, like you do to me and call me substandard names and being disrespectful because you have a sort of belief that your have arrived or so ? Weeeeeeeehhhh. Please go back to bed and keep dreaming will you now in how you thought your whipped my backside real good. Well goodnight, alright, I need some rest now from all your poking in my chest for no reason that makes us go like a merry go round of how we can best spend our time with an iPad, Mobile Phone or Youtube than with God.

      • @Jesse,
        A Boeing takes ‘faith’?
        So does IVF and Caeserean Section. This was in response to your claim that IVF procedure lacks ‘faith’.

        You don’t have to use IVF but you have no right to peddle nonsense that borders on blasphemy in the name of ‘discovery’ and scriptures.

        Flying is equally ‘improving on what God has made’ my friend. God could have given you wings if He wanted you to fly.

        They say everyone including fools are entitled to their opinion. So you are perfectly within your right in subscribing to patent nonsense. What is clear to all reading here is that there is zero scriptural and logical basis for your claims.

        Good night

  88. @Jesse you must be in your forties or more seeing you were busy chasing ministers in the 90s and 80s like another spiritual nomad. So I’m addressing an adult here.

    So I don’t understand why you mock modern science yet you are a product of it. Chemotherapy is for those trying to survive. So is Caeseran Section.

    Let’s talk about you and your family. Are you in ANY way a beneficiary of modern science and technology? Were your children born in a bush? Are they immunized? Do you fly or use lifts?

    Stop this foolishness of mocking science while you are its beneficiary.

    • @ Vooke,

      Don’t ask hypothetical questions. What can I do ? Ofcourse you can benefit of Technology. But Technology and many other things is designed to make you act by reflection. The more power, the more the reflection and the more a person becomes irresponsible. You see that all the time. People live in concrete jungles. And they can’t really live there. It’s like a diver that has to go deep in the water they need a special suit otherwise they die. So they do in concrete jungles. They need entertainment, technology, transportation, and many more distractions. And they do not reflect on their live anymore. Run, speed, fast, more power. And see what it brings. Sickness, disease, impatience, war, manageritis, scrupules machilus all kinds of issues which create mental illness and the like. Who is going to fix it ? The red pill or the blue pill ? You tell me ? No you rather run to IVF, Caesarian cuts, and iPads and think you have advanced in personality. Have you really ? Think again please, it just proved that you have become a herd replicator of the masses and that progress is your medal to prick on your chest for it. What mechanized genetically modified crops have done is now showing in many crops with blight in it. Great, let’s progress folks and not think whatsoever or even reflect anymore. Just do ! We look back later. First shoot from the hip then see who is still standing. Right ??

      • @Jesse,
        If Ceaserean Secrion no IVF are ‘bad’ because they are not mentioned in the bible and nobody in the scripture is a product of such, why don’t you stop flying as well seeing NOBODY flew an aeroplane in the scriptures?

        Do you see how silly and hollow your arguments are?

        Critical thinking is the one thing that sets humans apart from other animals and I’m surprised you are allergic to this

      • @Vooke

        Lol,may be Jesse and his household walk ONLY by Faith ..they must have never gone to hospitals when they are sick nor use any medicines since according to him, science and technology are SIN ??

        But I m wondering why is he using internet which is a also a ‘sin’ since its technology too??
        So Jesse should stop ”sinning” first before he points his fingers on ‘IVF , Caesarian cuts, iPads ‘…ect because he does use science and technology if not he must not be living in this planet earth since everything we use on our daily basis is all science and technology !

        Vooke,please ,don’t waste much time with this man,its clear there is something not right in his brain ,he is only trolling to annoy you and others.

      • Ok Vooke,

        You have made up your mind about IVF and other altering matters regarding what you think is best for your life or believe is good for you.

        And I have made up my mind that I am not into it or do want to do it. I have explained why and I find it a reasonable answer.

        You do what you need to do whatever you are happy with. I don’t have to follow you in your convictions about IVF or anything application that is regarding that. I would not do it even if it meant to be childless. Nor will I adopt children so others can just keep doing what they must do and encourage others to do the same.

        Everyone does there own thing nowadays and put their consciousness by talking to themselves ah, what does it matter, it’s ok and for me it is best that I don’t do these things.

        Because the next thing is then there is no reason to stop at anything just do it as long they can put the moniker love connected to it in however it is skewed in their head. Anything goes today. Go ahead, enjoy living in your sins and don’t come to me whining that you get it all on your plate because of your choices you made. It’s you that has to stand in front of God for your own choices. Don’t drag me into that. To condone that I do not find any command from God about tampering of what He has not designed in this way.

        There could be reason why certain things are not going as they are. People want to be their own God and keep stretching the boundaries of telling themselves things that it is just Okay…… What is next ? Help yourself, it really does not matter because I can or it is available.

        People think that if I do so and so and have such and such THEN only THEN I am defined of who I am. Why be under peer pressure ? Condemnation of others. Oh I have no baby, I must have one and you cry day and night and make your life miserable about it ? Thinking it is a shame, I don’t have one because maybe something wrong with me because it’s not coming. Now that is stupid. These kind of people keep changing the boundaries of their own consciousness in telling themselves. Well God would not care would He now ? Just a little sin here and there and a white lie here and there or compromise here and there and then get angry at you as if I am legalistic and no fun to be around. Well if you don’t want to be around then leave, go your way, please don’t drag me in your compromising lifestyle of yours ?

        I can so clearly hear Eve and Satan speaking with each other now. Go on, Eve, take some of it, why not, don’t you think it’s unfair from God not to give you all ? God just don’t want you to be like Him. Look, it’s great, don’t you see, a shiney lovely tube to get your Baby. Go on Eve, it really does not matter. Bang !!!!!!! Kablammo !!!! Ooops, me eyes gone open now. Why did I do it ? Why did I want what was not mine ? And ever since we suffer under such choices. NO, THANK YOU !!!!! Stop let the Devil take you for a joy ride that was temporally. Because your compromised and drag me into your trap you have been sucked into already. You are on your own. I really don’t need that.

        People like your have an self invented moral and immoral compass that suits their own train of thought. And cover it up as long they get their own benefit out of it and encourage others to wade into the area that might just be that God did not wanted from you. Stay away !

      • @ Vooke,

        “Critical thinking is the one thing that sets humans apart from other animals and I’m surprised you are allergic to this”

        Your can do your own critical thinking as you wish, I do not have to share it with you because you want me to. I am my own boss of myself and I think whenever I want to think critical if it is necessary. And yes, I am extremely allergic to certain people especially those that compromise, use lies for their benefit and deliberately want to sin for the sake to silence their own consciousness because they are telling it to themselves and because they think when others do it, I must do it too. If they ask me for help, I will help them, but I do not want to be part of their personal choices, lies and sins. You are on your own. And because of that, lots of people come to me all the time for advice and help because they always have loads of trouble (surprise, surprise) all the time and because they know I do not compromise with them and I speak my mind if it is wrong. What they do with it, is their own responsibility.

      • @ vooke,

        “@Jesse why do you use technology that Jesus and the apostles never used?”

        Just think now yourself what kind of question you are asking me ? Was there such technology in His day and age ? So that kind of question is useless to ask.

        Why does Jesus come back on a horse ? Why not on a motorcycle, monorail, cruise ship or a private Jet or a Lockheed Martin C130 Gunship with a infrared laser gun made by Tesla ? Hmmmmm.

      • @ Liesse,

        Maybe you should go through this article so you will understand what my against points are regarding IVF.


        The same thing will follow with human IVF down the line. Do you want to be still an advocate of such ?

        And yes, we all need to stop sinning. Including you. Because your brain is not right concerning this either because you want to continue to sin as say, Ooops I did it again. SINNER, YOU ! Don’t you ever tell me you don’t sin.

        1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

        1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

      • @ Liesse, General

        No, really?!? And here was I thinking that Bulldogs and Shitzus with their pushed in snouts and concomitant breathing difficulties, the curved spines of Bedlington terriers, the congenital deafness common to Dalmatians, hip dysplasia common to Golden Retrievers, Shepherd dogs, etc. etc were all signs of good healthy genes<~~~~….and all because some people like to put trinkets on their mantelpieces and win bragging rights over their friends. They make me puke. And you are for IVF with this future scope that will develop in such ? Which is the same you are into. You disgust me. And you General are on the forefront with it all. You should be ashamed calling yourself a follower of Jesus Christ. Much less a Christian.

  89. @ Vooke, TBJW, General,

    Can you look at the following and I quote in case you don’t think that IVF is not sin

    Medical clinics advertise IVF with the emotionally laden promises of taking home a new baby, but what they do not reveal are the long, painful <~~~ procedures that lead to complete fertilization. Drug therapy, invasive and time-consuming treat­ments, the ethical considerations of masturbation <~~~, destroying fertil­ized embryos <~~~~, aborting implanted embryos <~~~~, and a low success rate should all be considered while mak­ing this decision.

    It is sin. See how many things are done there in the name of God and being condoned to have a baby through IVF that IS ACTUALLY SIN ! Period. So let’s close this conversation after you have answered it.

    • @Jesse

      So in summary:
      Ya you see…all the problems with IVF…this proves Louise Brown & other 5 million children are soulless/spiritless

      You want me to engage with logic like this?
      Your constant contradictions, incoherence, veering off-topic, completely idiotic & incredibly stupid questions/arguments have killed my appetite for further discourse with you.

      Sorry mate, I’m done talking to you about this topic!

      Lol…you want us to talk about the wrong topic, and then you can make it look like you’ve been right all this time. You remind me of this quote:

    • Mindless rambling again and again.
      It’s a simple question, ‘Are petridish babies as human as any other?’

  90. @ Liesse, General

    No, really?!? And here was I thinking that Bulldogs and Shitzus with their pushed in snouts and concomitant breathing difficulties, the curved spines

    of Bedlington terriers, the congenital deafness common to Dalmatians, hip dysplasia common to Golden Retrievers, Shepherd dogs, etc. etc were all signs of good healthy genes<~~~~….and all because some people like to put trinkets on their mantelpieces and win bragging rights over their friends. They make me puke. And you are for IVF with this in the future scope that will develop that as such ? Which is the same you are into. You disgust me.

    And you, General are on the forefront with it all, unbelievable. You should be ashamed calling yourself a follower of Jesus Christ. Much less even a Christian. And if you are not, why are you here ? Repent of your sins and give your life to Jesus Christ.

    Even Richard Dawkins a total and complete Atheist in his latest book discusses “artificial” selection in dogs and the ramifications thereof knows better than you all together combined. Is that not a shame then ?

    PS Liesse, I know who you are, OK. Why are you hiding behind multiple different ID’s to pretend andn think that I don’t see you Aimee Joshua

    • @Jesse you are puking over your own idiocy so blame yourself.

      STICK TO THE TOPIC: IVF and AI. Are the products of these technological advances human or not? If they are humans, then we have nothing to argue. If they are not, prove they are not humans. So far you have flipflopped between these two positions like only a jestering idiot can do and. You don’t have a position on this matter and are unworthy educating or debating

      ‘IT IS NOT IN THE SCRIPTURES THEREFORE IT IS UNGODLY AND NOT OF FAITH’: Again it takes a moron to dismiss technology merely because of its absence in Biblical times or records. When you stop flying and repent over all your flying, come back here and pontificate on the ‘ungodliness’ and faith-lessness of IVF

      IVF & AI ARE NOT PERFECT: How silly of you! One can make the same argument of ANY human endeavor. Millions perish each year on our roads. This does not make motor vehicles evil. Closer, millions perish in the hospital theatres undergoing various procedures. None of these make surgery sin.

      MORALITY OF IVF & AI: After seeing the utter foolishness of your initial claims that petridish babies are not human you have decided to go for the PROCESS to ‘prove its evils’. While I can easily take you on this, I choose not because it is premised on a faulty logic; the products of an evil process are evil. On example suffices; the Chibook girls were kidnapped, raped and impregnated and gave birth. All these are pure evil, worse than anything you can imagine yet the babies are as human as yourself conceived and brought forth probably out of love.

      @General was right; fools not only drag you to their level but they beat you with experience. The reason you don’t find anybody responding to you is because they are thoroughly amused by your baseless illogical and inconsistent positions. I can bet they are praying that you will use your head for once.

      • @Jesse,
        When you see the asthmatic and their inhalers, rebuke them for trying to change what God created. Tell them if Gid wanted them to breath easily He should have made it easier for them.

        And when you run into the bespectacled, tell them it is sin tinkering with their eyesight

        And finally when you run into the elderly with pacesetters, tell them to roll over and die

      • @ Vooke,

        Maybe people that have asthma have it for a reason. According to a SCOAN staffer, he had Asthma because he believed that his father was in the Freemasonry. And I am not surprised about that either because I have seen it up close in some other people who’s family were in Freemasonry. Now that does not mean that all people who have Asthma, my brother had puffers in the last time before he died. He never had it. But that puffer DID NOTHING ! He still died anyways. My uncle had these things and it did do NOTHING he died a terrible death with choking. To hell with your rotten puffers. I know what I am talking about. It does do Jack nothing.

        About pacemakers. I was in the hospital people were waiting for pacemakers. I have seen them put in, their heartbeat increased, but they still died anyways. I know all of that first hand. You piece of nothing. You clearly have not been anywhere whatsoever.

        My own father in the hospital with a stroke. Nothing that they did worked. He died anyways, You piece of nothing. You sick twisted maniac. You are mentally sick follower follower of Jesus Christ.

        My mother gone in the hospital with a big hole in her stomach needed to be operated upon because all the food was going in her stomach cavity. Next day she died because of all her organs giving up which were perfect. You sick twisted maniac, you evil nasty piece of work.

        I know all first hand and in my neighborhood about your so called technology advance how they all died from all those advances you talk about. Day in day out there are Ambulances in my street and all they die like flies. Please stop now will you. You have no idea what you are talking about. You are sick mental maniac. You need help in your stuck up mind. You are no Christian whatsoever.

    • @Jesse ,at least i don’t go copy and paste other people’s ideas and pass them as my own ,and when caught up you persistently deny you never read anything and pass it as your own ??

      Let see how you wriggle yourself out of this one too

      When will you stop your craziness ? Calling some humans as soulless and spiritless is godless ! So you re the one not Christian and you will never be until you repent..

      Jesse,you are only animated by a spirit of selfishness .As long as it does not affect you and your family ,thats ok for you ,you will go on with your nonsense irrelevant justifications that those innocent people are not real humans?? how EVIL!

      If i had a petridish baby and you describe her as an animal ,i would sue you for sure.

      • @ Liesse,

        Go ahead sue me. For I never called anyone an animal. These words came from all of you. Don’t put anything that I did not say in my mouth.

        Yes, it is different if you use glasses or contact lenses, you are not growing lab rats or mice are you as in IVF or AI. You are tampering with deliberate masturbation and looking and porn to achieve your pot full of sperm. And carry it around as if you bringing the milk around.

        How about distorting and disturbing the perfect cycle of a women’s period with injections, just so you can have a baby. Or how about destroying the eggs of a harvested like about for example 10 and then you use 1 and destroy or freeze them in while they are developing and the rest as you see fit, with tampering more than is necessary. Removing DNA and fit in the better one’s for Uber beings. And then you call me Mengele ? I would not do it. I would never do it. My wife would never do it. Because of the above standing reasons. It’s going too far and if you are for it, you smack God in the Eye for your deliberate sins. You even let the parents sin for you to become a test tube baby ? They can’t help it. Born in sin because of doing sin. What’s wrong with you all !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You call yourself followers of Jesus Christ ? Far from it.

      • Yes, some people are not human. People like you. People that are slaughtering this world with their own selfish personal agenda and as long they can have what they want. The greed you express that it is all about you and your baby or whatsoever. As if the world is evolving around you and your family or whatever that is.

        You move forward with your so called technology and destroy the environment by flying day in day out, or drive day in day out with big gas guzzling cars, make the ice cap melt by your own doing, ruin endangered species, trample on those that are standing up for your own evil and when you are written to you tell me that I was calling you an animal. You are worse than an animal. You are a nothing an empty bag full with air. You disgust me, I despise you, you need to be exterminated from this world, why don’t you just piss off and die ! Now sue me ! Then I can see your despicable face of blown up piece of meat.

      • @ Liesse, General, TBJoshuaWatch, Vooke,

        Yes, saying such things is uncalled for. Why can’t I do it, while you can ? Why can’t I do it and TB Joshua can build illegally without building permit and tell the world he saw it and did nothing and all died and then blame God for his choices ?

        Liesse, You got this link because I did send it earlier to you. It had nothing to do of calling human animals. It had to do with the effects what it does on the gene pool, DNA of our mutts.

        I quoted it because to me it is comparable to those that do IVF and AI. Tinkering believing they can do better than God did in the first place.

        Vooke, I was pissed off because of your ignorance. Go inside hospitals, I do this on a regular basis because I visit sick people in their pain, grief and problems. You should do it for a change. I see most people that are bedridden, like with Alzheimers, Dementia and other serious stroke, brain problems, heart problems. What I see is this, I see loads of admissions of medication, BUT NO CURE for it. It’s rare that certain type of people come ever out of the hospital. Is that the progress of your technology you are talking about ? Like when I saw my father pooping in his trousers at 83 he never did in his life because of the medication. I see his mouth turning all so bad that he barely can eat. That because of the side workings of the medications. The side workings are worse than the medication is doing. It’s prolonging life who are actually already dead. I hear people when I visit screaming, I want to die, I can’t take it anymore, I can’t stand this being in my bed and lay here. Where is my family, (They just have been there) and they are pumped full with medication of what you are find so great and never get better. Months pass by, years pass by and they stay the same. Mentally dead, physically not able to do anything. I would recommend you to go on a daily basis to those people and see what their medication is really doing. NOTHING ! They are all litterally zombies. Thanks to the medications. But no cure. No healing. No getting back up and do what they did before, only to die unshaven, hair unkempt, sores all on their bodies. That is why you disgust me, because you don’t know anything clearly. Please go and do some visits for 3 months and come back and tell me more about your fantastic progress in medication, vaccinations and the like. They all these things. Vaccinations. And it is proven that those who had it there were more sick in the population than those who did not get anything. There is no flu jab that stops any flu happening to you. You will see you always will cough, sneeze, blow your nose or have sore throat and ask why you feel like a wet cloth in days. There is a natural defense in your body it only needs proper nutrition and rest and it works fine. Why don’t you expose yourself for a while to MSRA with all your vaccinations in place. All of them. You will die. Period. Just go touch the toilets on the floor in the hospital and start eating with your fingers in your mouth. See what happens. Please don’t do hand washing because you had all your vaccinations.

  91. @Jesse you are the biggest moron on this blog. If they give oscars for that, I’d nominate you in all categories

    Inhalers, pacemakers and glasses don’t give eternal life or immortality, they save men from early avoidable deaths just as vaccines do and help them lead normal lives. Whether there is a ‘reason’ or not for some people having these ailments the point is medical science readily come to their aid with all its limitations which is far better than nothing.

    Medical science is not perfect just as other human endeavors but only certified board idiots are blinded to its merits by its imperfections.

    It is hypocritical to follow ‘natural’ reproductive measures to the t, only to have your kids delivered in hospitals by scientists.

    @Jesse you are an embarrassment to all black Homo Sapiens for harboring such sickening beliefs. You know not the scriptures nor the power of God.

    Matthew 22:29 (KJV)
    Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

    You are mentally unstable to say the least and for this we forgive you.

      • @tbjoshuawatch, I know all about antivaccers. This and HIV conspiracy theories are up there with UFOlogy and Illuminati nonsense. I should probably drop it to avoid needless digression.

        Kenya was declared polio free in 1984. That’s when the LAST Polio case was recorded. Nowadays only immigrants, Somalis and Sudanese bring it with them.

        I really wish @Jesse had not attempted to explain his stance. The moment he did, he invited us to pick his brains over it.

        Happy Lord’s Day

  92. @ Vooke,

    I am mentally unstable ? Is that the best shot in the wrong golfcourse hole you have got on offer ? So eh, why don’t you go on a 40 day fast and pray for me so than I can be free from my “mentally being unstable” if you feel that that is so. Because after all you all say you have been praying for me or even so many have prayed for me over the years. So how come I am still mentally unstable as your purport. You claim you know the power of God and God is your personal Errandboy and does everything what you pray for when you say so, right ? Why does it take so long to get my so called in your head only and some others “mental unstable mind” into order ? Is there not an IVF and AI treatment available for me in that respect ?

    So I can be cloned and the bad “mentally unstable” DNA, Genes, put in somebody elses vagina and womb so that next time we speak again, I can speak as you like me to be.

    Yes, I started a question about IVF and AI, only hoping you would have said the bad sides of it and that it was a sin…..Not envisaging that some of you dragged the whole world inside this debate regarding the simple question I put forward after that. And you clearly went on a spree of promoting IVF and AI as one of the most greatest things on earth as being believer in Science and God that it is expedient that every childless person and especially followers of Jesus Christ should definitely go down that route to acquire a test tube baby so they can have what they need or want.

    The stance you all have taken is SIN is great to do by all means and do it heartily at any time you want, nobody cares, because you as an
    individual feels like it doing it for the progress of Science. And if I say something about it, you call me mentally unstable. Eh !

    Apparently you find sin fascinating in such a way that you believe that unraveling DNA, genes, fiddling with zygotes and tampering outside the womb and then putting it back in with a strange man doing it, with blunt instruments through somebodies vagina is a total recall and justification of having such done. Since you want that so eagerly on the basis of other facts in Science, why don’t you open a clinic, make your videos close up or all procedures and put them on your personal website and tell all Christians to succumb to your promotion of this evil application that is actually sin.

    You know that it is sin, right ? If not, then take it from your alleged “mentally unstable” imaginary patient. It is sin, because you want to play God. Because that is what you want is it not ? You want to say to God. Hey, You, you tardy Handler of making anything right and say now God, stand on the sidelines while people are suffering I know better than you, stand aside, I will choose IVF and AI and all other scientific “breakthroughs” as my means to satisfy my ego and defining myself as the superior human being in all of that, because I can and let me poke you in the Eye God because after all I am better than you in not giving a childless couple no children. You are on your own with it if you would ask me to join your dastardly evil quest and say God told me to do this because I have silenced my self righteous voice in my head that I am now ready to condone it because the rest of science is palpable for me and technology is such a benefit of it all for me to peddle myself forwardly at all costs.

    Science has broken down and destroyed more than it has fixed. How about a lovely scientifically H-bomb upon your backyard or how about a daisy cutter bomb in a group of people that have no defense by their own means than actually cutting somebodies head off because of religious reasons they practice. That’s not evil ? Or is it with you, Oweeee, they had it coming ? An Eye for and Eye and a Tooth for a Tooth. Why don’t you put the Law of the Bible into action if you know the Word of God so well ? Why not start killing people because God commands it in the Word of God in Exodus, Leviticus ? Why not ? What reason you have to disobey God ? Did God put His Law way ? Did Jesus put the Law away ? Paul ? Peter ? John ? You are now caught in hypocrisy, you do your own thing because it is available and your boast into it, but your don’t do actually what God commands ? And you call me mentally unstable ?

    Why ? Why can’t you go out and say to gays and lesbians. Repent or otherwise, I have to kill you according to God’s commands in the Law of Leviticus ? Why are you such a coward then and keep weaving around it all when it comes to obeying God at His Commandments ? If you say you know the Word of God then do what it says then ?

    Here, I am on my own proving hands down to you that you know nothing about the Word of God either, nor about the power of it as well, because IF you say you are such a righteous man/woman as you say you are why does God not hear your in vain offered prayers and takes action on my behalf so that I can live “mentally unstable” free from now on. Oh wait, you will come next time with your answer, go take your Prozac, Xeroxat or Paxil in case you have a mental brain fart again on TB Joshua Watch. For this I will forgive you. You are nothing more than a bragger about the power of God and knowing the Word of God but your actions show nil too and have no effect upon, if you want me to be a mentally stable person that is. But since you are only pro yourself and your mateys. It’s unlikely I will ever see the result of your so special prayers. Oh Thou Great Word of God Sage and Power Pusher.

    • @Jesse,
      Drop theatrics and arrant nonsense
      The morality of IVF and AI was NEVER in question, that’s an afterthought you cooked to salvage your pathetic argument.

      Here is the point; petridish babies are humans in every way. But you insist they are soulless/spiritless

      Your mental instability is evidenced by your inability to focus on any point and to hop from one topic to the other, contradiction in your stance and basically incoherence. But I don’t know, it could be your hobby😉

      • @Jesse,
        Rape is immoral, you’d have to be insane to be cool with half a dozen men raping your wife, right?
        But God forbid should they rape her and she conceived, the rape child would be as human as any other she conceived through consensual sex. One can argue against rape without making silly insinuations about rape children. In fact, arguments against rape seldom if at all touch on the product of rape.

        Debating morality of IVF and AI is therefore irrelevant to your dumb claim that petridish babies are spiritless/soulless monsters who Jesus would never save.

        Once again, as long as you persist in claiming that petridish babies are not humans, that they lack a spirit &/ soul, you will remain the biggest moron on this blog. You will remain an incorrigible idiot because common sense, logic, empirical evidence,science,SCRIPTURES are all against you

      • @Vooke

        Exactly ,nobody can go on and again calling a human being an animal or soulless/spiritless unless he is mentally unstable.
        The most chocking thing is ,Jesse does not and seem will never get how godless that is while pretending to be the one following God’s commandments than us.

        As a grown up person,Jesse’ s character and behavior really seems very strange ,he is unable to control himself hence we should for sure forgive him because it seems he does not know what he is saying.

        What he only wants and is aiming to ,is to always win in every conversation/ debate even if it means to hurt others ,he will not care .That is Jesse for you.

        Helas ,Vooke unless you let him win ,he will not stop wasting your time with his nonsense incoherent justifications against petridish babies.
        Please let us appease him and let him win as he likes ,lol…

      • @ Vooke,

        Ok, Can we at least put the name calling aside now. You and me and anyone here.

        You like to bring in extra things that I was not focusing upon at that moment. Just because you have something in a petri-dish and it grows to something whatever it is. From Amoeba to a Person. You derived out of my debate that they Amoeba or the Person was not human. It was said here in the debate because of what I said and asked you all. How can you have a living soul into a person if God did not make it breathing. Breathing in an out of your nose is not your spirit is it, is that what you are saying here ? A tree or a plant breathes. Does it have a spirit now too as well ? Because that is what you are saying to me.

        How can you say to me and including General. There is no blood at all anywhere near a sperm or an egg. So how can it receive then a human spirit right there ? Much less a living soul. You both are still moving forward to the next stage of a full grown person as being one with a blood system in their bodies. I never reached that far at all. You were all on the fast train to Timbuktu while I was still in the train that stops at all stops and looks what is happening there. Then it blew up because of what I said must be derived that doing IVF (which is a sin to my conviction, but not to you, or anyone else) that when then everybody has grown up with a blood system that is why they have a human spirit and a living soul. Why did all of you run that fast while I was doing is catching up because you all raced to the end conclusion for yourself and not what I was saying ?

        I really need to ask you one more time again. Does the human spirit and living soul enter in the two parts into the moment that the scientist is putting these two together ? And just stop there and stop running ahead of the pace that was set. By throwing already things of you heretic, you mentally unstable person, you this, you that. Because it clearly puts everybody at logger heads here about this. And the Devil is laughing about it because we can’t agree about anything then pushing another person away because it was something that came up and put forward as a proposal. When you all went out of your head about it, dragging in about the end result, you left everybody behind who was watching it all. I.e, you all had your tinfoil heads on and went Berserker to shoot it all down and make another person not eligible to even have a normal faculty to think with……. Vooke I am not here to compete with you because you will not give any room to anyone. Nor does General. You really do give the impression that you think in your conviction that you are superior in everything. Let me make clear. Nobody of you were thinking about this, because I can see you all clearly went out to go study it how it is all put together.

        And it is also clear that getting at each other throats because of discussion is helping no one here.

        And if you feel that you think this word is better because of all the advance we have made think again. We are hurting the world more because of our advance. There are still Billions of people who are going nowhere with all of this. The advance has hurt many tribes and clans to destroy there way of living because we are of opinion that what they were doing in their environment was not good enough. Then the west came in and were saying Oh we need to put this all upside down because these are illiterates and know nothing. When everything was in balance through nature, we advanced and made everything by reflex not by reflection. More power means driving fast in cars without thinking that it spirals out of control when somebody crosses the street. So if we make cars safer because of what we do. So how will be do the operations for people who are dying with fresh organs who come out of car accidents ? Hmmm. So we are starting to grow human ears on the back of mice so we can put them on our non existing ear. Then the genes that are being created through this will also get inside of our bodies and the next time we reproduce ourselves we bring that with us in the next generations. And…. down the road it all goes wrong and we are with our hands up in the air what happened here. Dolly the Sheep, cloned, but hey where did that Arthritis come from and she died very soon after that. Tampering ! That’s my point. Desperation that comes out of it. Rejection, Pain, Grief. Substituting with substitutes makes one happy, better because now you have an ear that grew upon a mouse’s back ? Playing God. Bragging of how great it all is. And much more. And then the bullying that comes from the class room, Nanananana, you have a mouse ear, you have a mouse ear and then all the organizations against bullying stand up. Where do the problems stop when you are all going to do this ? With Tampering. Fiddling. Rummaging. Making someone satisfied because without it they are not complete. So they say.

      • @ Liesse,

        Did you hear me saying and stating that people are animals ? Or not human. You take the sum of:

        petridish + sperm + egg + scientist + jesse saying where is the human spirit coming from and the living soul = Jesse saying people from Petridishes are not human and are animals. Which he did not, that were your all conclusions of what I said. Wrong !

        PS General,

        Tt appears that in Leviticus 17:11-14 God is essentially saying the soul of the flesh is in the blood. That is why Biblically a living human is a soul. So you couldn’t possibly be a living human being with blood circulating & be “soulless”, it’s ridiculous.

        So you are saying here that the blood is our soul ? So the blood goes back with the human spirit to God ? I do not read that anywhere.

        According to Clarence Larkin that is completely wrong what you are saying there.

        As well the Scripture says: 1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless <~~~~ unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

        I don’t see any blood there as “the soul”.

        That is Godless ?

      • @Liesse,

        I believe in God, I am not an Atheist. I talk to atheists but I don’t really discuss with them my belief in God. Because all they do is shooting you down of how “mentally ill” you are and they are not. Same as Vooke is behaving here. Telling me that I am hopping from topic to topic while Vooke is exactly doing that too. As well General. As well TBJW. As well Liesse.

        So hey ! Nothing different there is it not. Look who is taking you all on ? Me ! And the “mentally unstable” can just be applied to anyone. Who is mentally stable ? Go on tell me ? When I am among people I hear the most bizarre things and they laugh about it but if they have to admit it to a standard of psychological or psychiatric assessment, it will show they were mentally unstable just like everyone else was.

        Did you know that insane people are highly intelligent and are misunderstood because they are thinking outside the box that everybody has to be framed into. Conformity. Deceiving you that you must be like this or such and such. By whose standards ? By their dictatorship and bullying ? You have to be conform what I say or else you are out of the group and you don’t think same like I do ? Really ? By whose standards do you want to live ? The new law re-writers and moral and immoral compass producers ? Like we all have to live together and accept another just the way they are but actually breaking down all good morals and rather be immoral and constantly provoking another person. And standing in their face. I am right, you are wrong, you are wrong, I am right. Is that not where all the discord comes from ? If for example a bully says, Let love lead. He says it because he want to be the boss of it all, not the leader. Deceiving you how to propel themselves forward in making a name for themselves.

  93. @All

    I would just like to draw your attention to something interesting, the two words; Life & Soul

    Lev 17:11 “For the life (nephesh) of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls (nephesh): for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul (nephesh).”
    Lev 17:12 “Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul (nephesh) of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood.”

    Lev 17:14 “For it is the life (nephesh) of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life (nephesh) thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life (nephesh) of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.”

    In this passage the Hebrew word used for Life = nephesh [neh’-fesh] נפשׁ (Strong No. H5315)
    The same word is used for Soul = nephesh [neh’-fesh] נפשׁ

    The same word nephesh is used for soul in Ezekiel 18:4

    There is another Hebrew word for ‘Life’ used else where, e.g.
    chay [khah’ee] חי (Strong No. H2416) = Gen 18:14, Gen 47:9, Gen 3:24, Lev 18:18, etc

    It appears that in Leviticus 17:11-14 God is essentially saying the soul of the flesh is in the blood. That is why Biblically a living human is a soul. So you couldn’t possibly be a living human being with blood circulating & be “soulless”, it’s ridiculous.

    I just thought that was interesting, worth sharing 🙂

    • Thank you @General,
      That’s a powerful scriptural proof that all humans have life. This is almost a silly truism until you run into Jesse-types who insist that we have living soulless(lifeless) monsters around.

      I just googled when blood starts circulating in a fetus. You won’t believe it is day 22!

      This of course serves pro-life movement some flesh seeing if we were to define life by the blood, a 22 day old ‘thing’ is alive. Topic for another day

      • @ Vooke,

        See what I replied to Liesse,

        Do not add, subtract, divide, multiply out of what I initially said as an end result. You are rubbing shoulders because you have an agenda for your self to be the bully here. Why are you bullying ? Are you the boss here ? General, are you the boss here ?

      • @Vooke

        Day 22, that is interesting. That’s less that a month. That explains why God regards pregnancy as life.

        Fact #1 –> Nephesh = Soul = Life
        Fact #2 –> Life is in the blood
        No amount of your typing will ever change these scriptures.
        If you think this is wrong, then tell that to God. He is The One who said these things, not me. You can take it up with Him because I am not getting into this with you.

    • @Vooke,

      If you paid attention. I did mention some of these words before.

      “chay [khah’ee] חי (Strong No. H2416) = Gen 18:14, Gen 47:9, Gen 3:24, Lev 18:18, etc”

      Go look in my posts. You are trailing.

      And the last link you gave is showing the development of the stages in growing a fetus. It does not show when the blood is really starting until a heart is able to pump it around. So that is day 6. Not day 1. I don’t know why I have to repeat myself so many times.

      Is there any BLOOD in when you put a sperm and egg together in day 1 and how is the human spirit and the living soul entering at that stage ? Sheesh, why is it so hard to understand.

  94. @Jesse,@General,@tbjoshuawatch,

    Jesse is now whining about being misrepresented and misquoted. I wish that he answers these questions with a simple yes/no;

    (a).Have you at any point on this post indicated, insinuated or suggested that petridish babies lack either a spirit or soul and are thus less than human?

    (b).Have you claimed that there are some humans who are soulless and therefore not humans?

    (c).Have you claimed that God is not involved in IVF &/AI in giving life since He only gives His spirit where there is sexual intercourse and orgasm between a man and a woman?

    Please, once again, answer these questions with a simple YES or NO. If you are not sure of the answer, if you don’t remember what you said, go through ALL the comments you have made

  95. @ Vooke,

    Jesse is now whining about being misrepresented and misquoted. I wish that he answers these questions with a simple yes/no;

    I am not whining at all, I am telling you what I said, you were adamant and others to draw me into further something that I did not want go so far as you forced me to do. I asked about IVF and AI and you all went so far to involve 5 million test tube babies while I was talking only about the sperm and the egg fusion.

    (a).Have you at any point on this post indicated, insinuated or suggested that petridish babies lack either a spirit or soul and are thus less than human?

    Yes and I have explained where at what point that would be the case, you can’t say I did not. You all stretched it to a full grown person, while I had not even reached that far and I told you all you ran ahead of what I said.

    (b).Have you claimed that there are some humans who are soulless and therefore not humans?

    No, because drawing me into saying that I did was because most of you said this was the case with full grown people and babies. What I did say was, no soul or human spirit could be in there at the fusion of the sperm and the egg done by a scientist.

    (c).Have you claimed that God is not involved in IVF &/AI in giving life since He only gives His spirit where there is sexual intercourse and orgasm between a man and a woman?

    Yes, because when the egg and sperm are fused together how is God involved in than besides just standing next to it and watching somebody sinning ? God is involved in sinning ?

    Romans 3:23 For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard.

    1 John 1:7-9 But if we are living in the light, as God is in the light, then we have fellowship with each other, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, cleanses us from all sin. If we claim we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth. But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness.

    Colossians 3:5-6 So put to death the sinful, earthly things lurking within you. Have nothing to do with sexual immorality, impurity, lust, and evil desires. Don’t be greedy, for a greedy person is an idolater, worshiping the things of this world. Because of these sins, the anger of God is coming.

    Galatians 5:19-21 When you follow the desires of your sinful nature, the results are very clear: sexual immorality, impurity, lustful pleasures, idolatry, sorcery, hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, dissension, division, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and other sins like these. Let me tell you again, as I have before, that anyone living that sort of life will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

    Fertility clinics do not create only one embryo. They create MANY embryos. Some are selected for implantation, some are selected to be frozen, for possible future implantation. And the rest are DESTROYED. This deliberate direct destruction of living human embryos is the grave sin of murder; it is a type of abortion.

    Please, once again, answer these questions with a simple YES or NO. If you are not sure of the answer, if you don’t remember what you said, go through ALL the comments you have made

    I did, now be happy.

  96. @tbjoshuawatch,@General, @Jesse,

    I did not need lengthy diatribe. Please answer the next question in less than 10 words.

    A petridish/test tube baby is one whose fertilization occurs either outside the mother’s uterus (IVF) or within but aided by artificial means (AI).

    @General gave us the name of the world’s test tube baby, Louise Joy Brown on this post;

    Do petridish/test tube babies such as Joy Brown possess a soul/spirit at ANY point in their lives?

    • @ Vooke,

      If I say no, can you prove practically with something like whatever except Bible Scriptures you need to use for it that she has ? Can you even prove your own soul ?

      If I say yes, can you disprove me practically without using any Bible Scriptures that she has ?

  97. @All

    For those who find it exhausting going through @Jesse’s incoherent babbling, here is a fresh sample of his contradictions. This is why it is impossible to hold logical, healthy debate with him.
    Jesse says:
    January 19, 2016 at 6:37 pm

    “Fertility clinics do not create only one embryo. They create MANY embryos. Some are selected for implantation, some are selected to be frozen, for possible future implantation. And the rest are DESTROYED. This deliberate direct destruction of living human embryos is the grave sin of murder; it is a type of abortion.”


    So he just told us: “This deliberate direct destruction of living human embryos is the grave sin of murder
    This is an incredible U-turn!!
    Check what he really believes:

    Jesse says:
    January 13, 2016 at 6:11 pm

    “When I destroy a initial fusion of an egg and sperm in my petri-dish, am I then a murderer ? Was Jesus crucified for that ?”


    @Vooke asked him if God would charge you guilty for the deaths of petrish babies.

    @Jesse replied:
    “No because it was just two parts of matter. Egg and Sperm. Nothing was there was it”

    So it’s only murder when Jesse sees it convenient during the debate.
    He changes his stance whenever it is convenient for him during the debate & then he accuses us saying things he did not say. These are his absurdities.
    Very insincere guy! How do you debate with someone like that?

    • @General
      So basically Jesse’s no-soul without sexual intercourse theory completely nullifies his objection to IVF. I hadn’t noticed that glaring contradiction, very astute observation.

      • @ TB Joshua Watch,

        No it does not nullify it. Because I quoted that from another website about IVF and AI rejection as being from God.

        I should have put the source with it, but I did not. I copy and pasted it. As if you never copy and paste anything ? You do, so can I.

        That website was confirming your and others stance about it to be murder. I should have said, this is coming from so and so website.

        And then said, I do not think it is murder. I said it was sin because other things I mentioned before. Stop threading water about this. Because if you think you can label me. Think again. You know a lot of it is just a thing I brought forward and you all go haywire about it to disprove it. It must be the frustration of not been able to nail TB Joshua in a corner. Maybe this is a good exercise to do so. But he will not come out to spar with any of you, he hides, scuffles, deflect, dodges, uses the law against the law. Why not step up your prowess to make it more clear instead of focusing upon me and see yourself doing line dancing the thin line of a gray area.

        Here is the LINK:


    • Yep @General, he likes claiming many things but will deny them all after whenever he sees his claims are turning against him while he will accuse us of adding, subtracting, dividing, multiplying out of what he initially said ..

      Hmm, wait you see him blaming you you the one who forced him into these contradictions or he will find away to twist the meaning of his claims again and again

      James 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

      • @ Liesse,

        No, you are wrong, what I claimed is that by sexual intercourse the human spirit and soul (as God was involved in it) was deposited into the fusion of the sperm and the egg. None of you have been able to disprove that. You all claimed it was not true. You all came with blood, we need blood for to have human spirit and a living soul. Was that the discussion in the first place ? No, it was not.

        So with other words if you take all the blood of a human and then put it in an animal does it have then a human spirit and a living soul ? Because that is what you are saying now. All of you.

        Then you all started to say and claim, Oh but then all IVF and AI test tube babies are without human spirit and without a living soul because that was the logical add, subtract, divide and multiply formula = Jesse is NOW saying that Test tube babies are without human spirit and are soulless. That is what you all said and agreed upon and put it on my screen.

        I had nothing to do with test tube babies as a full grown person. So the next step was to drag innocent Joy Brown by the sins of her parents into the picture as you all did and abused her for it to make your story stick. And there became the discussion totally warped and twisted to the benefit of your own selves which made you all very insincere people to talk to because of your own give it a turn into the debate in the hope you cornered somebody. ( Why can’t any of you do that to anyone that is pro TB Joshua ? and even himself ?)

        I set the stage of the sperm and the egg being humanly spiritless and void of a living soul at the initial fusion with IVF, you all made a whole director cut production out of it and now you want all the credits for yourself in crying foul over me that you made your own movie out of it and broadcast to the world that I am double minded now.

        What a ridiculous dumb conclusion. You know what ? Why don’t you make an anointed sticker out of that and post it to the world. So they can put it on a car, house, window and the like and make it look miraculous.

      • Jesse: ‘….No, you are wrong, what I claimed is that by sexual intercourse the human spirit and soul (as God was involved in it) was deposited into the fusion of the sperm and the egg. None of you have been able to disprove that. You all claimed it was not true…..’

        @Jesse, you are quickly wearing your morons’ crown.
        Nobody has denied that ‘human soul and spirit is deposited in the fusion of sperm and egg’ during sexual intercourse. What we have all along stated is, sexual intercourse is NOT NECESSARY for this to happen.

        Evidence for this is IVF and AI, where without sexual intercourse, sperm and ovum fuses and in some cases go on to develop into a human. You have rejected this but you have no explanation how Joy Brown came from this process into a full human.

        Your fickle defense is to claim that Brown and others like her does not possess a human soul and spirit. But this is idiocy incarnate for how else did she grow into an adult human without a human spirit?

    • @ General,

      When I quoted this, this came from a website. I did not write that. Somebody else did. I copy and pasted it elsewhere from. I should have put it in quotes which I did not. I should have but did not.

      I took it so to confirm what you are saying in the other posts that it is murder according to you all.

      When I said the second part did I not put a question mark behind it. I asked you all and you did not answer it.

      And yes, it is not murder clearly of what I think because these two parts are separate from each other nothing and even put together they are still not making a blood stream in that so how can than the human spirit enter into the fusion ? Or even the soul ? You all have no answer to that. Because you all base your conclusion on the following that you need blood to have a human spirit and that is why you are living soul.

      You clearly twist it to your own benefit so you can label another person like so called US neuroscientists call Donald Trump a “text book narcissistic.” to discredit him in his Presidential election to have an advantage to put another person in a better light.

      • @ General,

        Are you saying we are doing murder when spermatozoa are going down the urinal tract and peed out in the urinal because you believe it has blood ?

        And, are you saying we are doing murder because the egg in the womb is shed by the monthly period because it is sitting in a layer of blood ?

        Because that is what you are saying which makes you also a very insincere person to talk to. Because you claim that in blood there is the human spirit and when attached to a body (flesh) sarx there is the human spirit descended into.

        So when the blood goes into the period pad and you throw it away with the egg attached to the blood, (I want even to put the following even if it was fertilized with a sperm but still ex-pulsed because of whatever reason), you are doing murder with throwing away the period pad.

        Can you say a simple Yes or No ? Because if you can’t you are an insincere person to talk to because that is what you were saying that the blood there is the Life and if it is Life it has a living soul and if you throw it away, it is murder. That is exactly what you are saying with the explanation of those Scriptures.

      • @ General,

        If by the link you gave by Day 6 there is a blood stream present and a beating heart. Then one should be able to discard the embryo for over 5 days because if your theory was correct about the human spirit and the living soul comes/descends in when there is the blood according to those Scriptures you all have quoted because you all say that there can be only a human spirit and a living soul when there IS BLOOD.

        Which makes in turn all theories undone and you and I are wrong about it all in any way you look at it.

        What is clear in this debate that nobody actually knows where the human spirit or soul enters the body. And doing the math of adding, subtracting, dividing and multiplying has nothing to do with any of you all calculating minds. It simply eludes you all by your own admission of putting up that link and when the blood is appearing and many theories have fallen to the ground about it all.

        So my conclusion is:

        a. There is no blood in a sperm or an egg even by fusion, so there is no human spirit or human soul present because it is done by a scientist without the involvement of God and His Spirit.

        b. There is only blood present in day 6 after the embryo is developing a blood stream and a pumping heart.

        c. However when it it done by sexual intercourse as God has designed it as it has to be executed by His Precepts then the human spirit and the living soul will merge as soon as there is the fusion and nestles in the womb.

        d. That scientists mimicking this is not a Godly plan but a Good plan it can work but many times fails. Hence it is a sin by tampering with what God has ordained from the beginning in Genesis as a command go forth, be fruitful and multiply as by using intercourse and no other means.

        You can take it or leave it. I stand by it that is well.

      • @Jesse,
        Your Stupidity is catching up with you

        If you disagree with what that source said, WHY DID YOU QUOTE IT?

        Now @Jesse in case the argument of blood escapes you, whether cell fusion happens inside the uterus or outside, the zygote has no blood at all. So you can’t argue that since a petridish zygote has no blood it has no spirit for similarly, the one inside the uterus has no blood!

        The blood argument was used by @General to demonstrate that PETRIDISH BABIES like Joy Brown have a human soul and spirit, because they have blood coursing through their veins.

        Question for you

  98. @ TBJW, Vooke, General, Liesse,

    I am asking you, you ask me how can they than be saved or judged if they have no human spirit and be a living soul.

    Are we saved by our human spirit and living soul or are we saved by the Blood of Jesus as His sacrifice for us ? As in did we pay for our own sins with our blood ?

    Romans 3:24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; 26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.…27 Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith.… 28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.…

    Anyone of you can try to prove that animals will not be in Heaven since it is not by our works but by the Works of the Cross of Calvary and the Blood of Jesus Christ and not by our own blood.

    • Jesse: ‘….@ TBJW, Vooke, General, Liesse,

      I am asking you, you ask me how can they than be saved or judged if they have no human spirit and be a living soul.

      Are we saved by our human spirit and living soul or are we saved by the Blood of Jesus as His sacrifice for us ? As in did we pay for our own sins with our blood ?……’

      @Jesse honestly you are totally dumb. You badly need critical thinking classes. There are some free podcasts on iTunes

      It is not the ‘human spirit and living soul’ THAT SAVES but it is the ‘human spirit and living soul’ THAT IS SAVED!

      This means if a humanish creature lacks the human spirit, then the blood of Jesus can’t save it because the blood of Jesus saves human spirits! So if according to you Joy Brown has no human spirit, then there is nothing in her that the blood of Jesus can save.


  99. @All

    Just to cut through Jesse’s vain babbling here is another latest sample of his classic contradictory non-sense!

    Apparently now WE CLAIMED that test tube babies are soulless & then WE put it on Jesse’s screen.
    Look what he says:
    Jesse says:
    January 20, 2016 at 10:17 pm

    Then you all started to say and claim, Oh but then all IVF and AI test tube babies are without human spirit and without a living soul because that was the logical add, subtract, divide and multiply formula = Jesse is NOW saying that Test tube babies are without human spirit and are soulless. That is what you all said and agreed upon and put it on my screen.

    Once again he changed his stance & then he accused us of saying things he did not say.
    Here is a summary of what he really believes; in his own words explicitly & implicitly:


    In response to the picture of 37 years old Louise Brown, the world’s first test tube baby,

    Jesse says:
    January 13, 2016 at 7:54 pm

    How do you know she has a living soul ?”


    Jesse says:
    January 12, 2016 at 6:45 pm

    You need to understand from me that petri dish babies in my belief do not have a living soul.”

    Jesse says:
    January 11, 2016 at 4:38 pm

    What I meant is in a later state in their life by their own choices they could become carrier of demonic entities. Because if they had a soul, they had the will to choose between good and evil and apply to their choice.”

    Jesse says:
    January 11, 2016 at 12:17 pm

    …I stated that I believe that in putting “someone” in a petri dish (which to my opinion is a sin) because all things without faith is sin…..That someone coming out of there is no living soul.

    Jesse says:
    January 4, 2016 at 2:42 pm

    So if then in future will be designer babies they would be soulless individuals. These would only be “programmed” or “learning” to be knowing a moral and immoral compass because of intellect and self-righteousness. Even up to be a lawless human individual and be a more convenient vessel to be a carrier of demonic entities because there is no soul there.”

    So if anyone is misrepresenting Jesse here is Jesse!
    Very confused & dishonest guy! How do you engage a guy like this??!!

    • Very right @General

      It all boils down to this;

      • @ Vooke,

        Can you prove that she has a human spirit and a living soul ? In real time. Not because she is walking around, but practically and not by a scripture. I have proved to you practically that sperm+egg+scientist = no human spirit and no human soul. Because it can’t, because God is not in it.

        How do you prove someone is human ? That they walk around and do things intelligently ? Try to explain that to a biologist, an unbeliever or a staunch atheist.

        How do you prove she is not an animal ? Since you all said that animals don’t have a living soul. A Chimpanzee has only 2 DNA’s difference with a human so what are you saying ?


      • @Jesse,
        Don’t be an idiot and a moron rolled into one.
        The very fact that she is alive proves she has a soul and a spirit. Adam was not moving and reproducing before he received the breath/pneuma. So any human moving and reproducing MUST have a spirit and a soul

      • @ Vooke,

        Answer the question.

        DO CHIMPANZEES HAVE A LIVING SOUL ? Yes or no and stay away from Google.com and other search engines to find your answer.

    • @ All,

      No the same kind of reverse psychology is what you all apply. All of you say that so and so us what I have said, while I did not say those things. When you all said the following.

      When I said that sperm+egg+scientists = no human spirit and no soul. You all translated this and coerced me into that I had said that Petri dish babies did not have a human spirit and living soul. Again, when I was at trainstation 1, you all went to trainstation 10 to prove to me that Joy Brown had a human spirit and soul which makes you all very insincere and dishonest about my first proposal see above.

      Where did I bring in Joy Brown ? You all did. It has nothing to do with my sperm+egg+scientists = no human and no soul. Not one of you did want to think about it. Instead of moving on to the next trainstation with me you all thundered along the track to reach trainstation 10 and left me behind in my proposal. Now that is not sincere and also unfair. Could anyone of you even think for one second that I had not even thought about a result of a test tube baby.

      And the the other issue is that none of you want to accept it as a sin to apply. And I quoted the man from the website because he was the person who agreed with you all it was murder. But on what ground did he establish his thinking and blog ? He did it because Vooke first give me two links about something to do with Catholic IVF etc etc.

      Did you engage before with others about IVF and AI on other forums ? Is this the reason why you are so violently aggressive about it ? Because you feel that you are just right and the others because of a exegesis in doctrine explanation that you all looked at put back at me ?

      How would you ever explain this to an unbeliever or even a die hard atheist ? You would have no foot to stand upon with them because they don’t share your beliefs in the Bible. How would you practically then explain to them how it would go into practice. Because you have not proven for one second the above sperm+egg+scientists = no human spirit and living soul.

      You all took (the) blood coming in touch with flesh (nephes) and say, this is where the life is and it is a living soul. That is what the Bible says, but if you would tell a Biologist this, they would say, you are nuts. Plus you all denied that creation is not reproduction which is just a fallacy. Because as soon as the fusion has taken place, it starts to create new cells with the information codes of all that is necessary to create a new baby. You clearly don’t understand cell division is then and creating a blood stream, a heart, lungs, bones, etc etc.

      If you want to know if Joy Brown has a human spirit and a living soul why don’t you go ask God about it because how could I possibly know where she got it from. Saying that she got it from the blood in contact with flesh (sarx) does not prove that it is. Because God created first Adam from dust (red soil) as well the animals.

      Because you all have danced around the initial proposal that I said, it just means the more that you all are insincere because you all went on a journey of your own and left me behind with no answer concerning my begin question. Instead you all run ahead and still can not say whether it is the case or not.

      On the flip side of the coin, if the blood what is in contact with the flesh according to that Scripture and gives life and a living soul it would mean that if you remove all the blood form a person for example with an open heart operation and the blood is put aside it means that the “life” is gone and so will then the human spirit and the living soul if they are kept “alive” by machines. This is already been demonstrated by some surgeons. So with that your whole theory has also collapsed for all of you.

      But since you all are stuck upon in thinking you all have got the nail hit upon the head, there is little for you all to learn or to comprehend that a lot of things you all claim to know is not proven whatsoever in practice. What I said is. Because God commanded it from the beginning and I don’t want God to be:

      Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

      No matter how much you throw at me that it is nonsense, for the same way all of you it can be nonsense too, because you all also filter out things that is only suitable for your own quest here.

      • @Jesse,
        you are idiotically funny;

        ‘…If you want to know if Joy Brown has a human spirit and a living soul why don’t you go ask God about it because how could I possibly know where she got it from…..’

        First, you contradict yourself; you insinuate only God knows if Joy Brown has a soul but in the same sentence you plead ignorance on the origin of her soul meaning you concede she has a soul!

        Secondly, is there any other source of human souls and spirits other than God?

        Thirdly,Why would we need to ask God what is so self-evident? Am using an iPad Air. Do I need to pray and fast for revelation as to whether this is an iPad or not? You know too well that a human being can’t breath, move and grow without possessing a living soul and a spirit. So when you see Joy Brown doing all that, what other proof do you need to tell you that she has a soul?

        So silly

    • @ General,

      Yes all that refers in my sort of speech and speaking to sperm+egg+scientists+fusion = no human spirit or living soul. you call it petri dish babies and from there you go to a full grown person. According to you all theories because that is what they are you prove by those Scriptures that if you have blood, flesh, you have life and a living soul. This you base upon the fact that they are walking around alive. What does that prove to anything to anyone ? All you are saying of what you saying is that take our theory as true because we say so because we have put some scriptures out as the proof that that is applicable in a full grown test tube baby. Show it to me practically in real time. Not with what Scripture says. The Scripture says Genesis 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

      You have all translated that make the test tube babies because we can. This is clearly what the Devil has inpired you all. Because you agree that tampering with God’s commands is translatable by saying we do it ourselves because we have the knowledge and look where it all goes. Chaos. Mess. What do you know where I came from when I was born ? Do you know ? No, you don’t. You don’t know what my parents did do you ? And here you are screaming and yelling that I am insincere and dishonest. While you all don’t know anything where I came from and blame my double mindedness upon whatever you all sucked out of your thumb. Because that is what it is. You think you know while you don’t.

      This entire world is like that. And you all in it and myself. When they think they fix one thing, they ruin somewhere else because they never have enough of tampering and doing their own things. When then somewhere else they think it is fixed or a victory then somewhere else someone is suffering because those kind of decisions. So very proud on that aren’t we ? Because that is what everybody does that lives without God they tinker and tamper and cause another problem elsewhere because they have no real understanding of what they cause down the line because of their sins, they just justify themselves in what they do. So let’s say, we are gonna do this but in another country they suffer because of that decision. The arrogance that people have. The ignorance that people have. Especially when they way, we are gonna do it anyways at all costs and at the expense of others we don’t care. Whether physcially, mentally or psychologically people are very proud of what they actually do. Not realizing they destroying something else elsewhere if they did that without thinking and just by reflex and not by reflection. It is because they don’t think for one second what the result will be down the line in other generations and what it brings where they can’t deal with and ruin even more. That’s the picture you see in this world. Truth ! Facts ! Thinking their inventions creates a better life while it does not. Scientia versus Nature and live in peace with the land instead they hit it hard by greed and selfishness of tampering. Tampering because they are proud they can. The more they tamper the more problems they face. The more diseases they manifest, in such a way those that are impossible to treat no matter what they do about it. They find this great. Big heads like Tweety. Falling over because they only have a big bunch of knowledge and can’t fix anything then going back to basics. Water, housing, food. And nature show them everyday. Floodings, Storms, Tornados, Hurricanes, Earthquakes, Tsunamis, Typhoons. And then keep tampering and twisting being their own God. And you all are proud of it. How should God judge such people ? What should He do then ? Throw Jesus in your face and crucify Him again because you have no respect for your own sins ? While you all think you are in control, somewhere else it falls apart at the seams. Sheesh !

      You are not interested in that. You are interested in how you can justify someone else tampering and including yourself doing it and don’t look back.

      • @Jesse,
        You can’t help but look hilariously silly

        ‘….Yes all that refers in my sort of speech and speaking to sperm+egg+scientists+fusion = no human spirit or living soul…’

        So Jesse, Joy Brown missed a spirit and soul when her father’s sperm and her mother’s ovum were fertilized in a petridish? Fair enough. But now that she is an adult, married and a happy mother of a few,


    • @ General,

      Jesse says:
      January 4, 2016 at 2:42 pm

      “So if then in future will be designer babies they would be soulless individuals. These would only be “programmed” or “learning” to be knowing a moral and immoral compass because of intellect and self-righteousness. Even up to be a lawless human individual and be a more convenient vessel to be a carrier of demonic entities because there is no soul there.”

      Can you prove to me that that is not so. Since your spirit, soul, body flesh, blood has now fallen to the ground as in another example I mentioned when they put the blood outside a body with an open heart operation and it goes through a machine. Then according to your claim the human spirit and living soul must leave because there is no contact with an body anymore. The heart is stopped and the bloodstream goes through a machine that supplies the oxygen and not by the lungs.


      • @Jesse,
        Thinking and especially Critical thinking is not your forte,

        ‘….Can you prove to me that that is not so…..’

        Logic 101, you can’t prove a negative
        Logic 102, the burden of proof lies on the one making a claim

        If I claimed that there is a colony of tall human beings on Saturn like Ellen White did, I can’t go demanding that you prove this is NOT SO (negative) – Logic 101. And I should be the one providing evidence of the same- Logic 102

        If you think human beings can be conceived and grow to full maturity WITHOUT a spirit and a living soul you need to prove it. Remember Adam was inanimate till he received the breath/pneuma so you need to explain to us how these are animated without a spirit

      • @Vooke

        I gave you the proof, you don’t want to accept it. General does not want to accept it, TB Joshua Watch does not want to accept it, Liesse does not want to accept it.

        Others elsewhere I have asked accept it. They agree. Then who is right and who is wrong ? You all are not the ultimate board of Hermaneutic Exegesis of Theological Doctrine. Clearly the Jury is out there about my proposal. And that was not insincerity of me nor dishonesty. However I do find that today nearly everybody has their own beliefs. They are entitled to that for all I care. But my proposal stays on the table. When you do this and destroy it straight away, there is no human spirit or soul deposited in a fresh fusion of IVF or AI. You all say, Yes Yes there. Well if you say yes, WHERE IS THE BLOOD then ! No blood, no life no breath. Period. You are trying to say that when the fusion has been done 1 minute or 1 hour. It’s breathing. No its not. There is no Oxygen coming from an none existing nose was it now. Yes or no ? To you all it is. I wonder if you all going to throw this Joy Brown into it again to ad infinitum and all the 5 million other petri dish babies as proof. Will you ? Sigh !

  100. @Dear TBJW ,General ,Vooke ,

    I don’t think you will ever get anything right, logical and honest from Jesse.This guy is clearly insane.
    I am wondering which planet does he really come from.

    Hope no grown up ‘petridish baby’ will ever see this nonsense theory he persistently believes in while refusing categorically to listen to anybody even when Scriptures were brought to prove him wrong. Very disappointing indeed.

    • @ Liesse,

      Your interpretations of those Scriptures mean nothing to me. Because somebody who is insane is very intelligent. Fact ! They say about Tesla he was insane because he was talking to pigeons every day but all you see now is Tesla’s work.

      You have no understanding about anything. You think you have it all in your own pigeon holes and sorted and qualified in your strict form because you only think that 1+1 =2 which is a simple third hand me down calculation that somebody has established for everybody to understand but in another planet it means nothing. Nor in the spiritual world.

      They said about John Forbes Nash he was insane too, but was one of the greatest mathematicians in the world, unfortunately he has died now.

      Stop thinking in your own little box you have created for yourself and as you all consistently do.

    • @ Liesse and all,

      Why are you all incapable to heal me through Jesus ? With all your everyday prayers and claims and prophetic and other Scripture interpretations or even remotely deliver me. It shows that you are all fake and useless just like TB Joshua was and his followers and all his staff. USELESS, completely useless.

      I knew from the beginning that you all were incapable. As well all those ministers that are so called the greatest of the world but are incapable to make me sane. What a joke they all are. Including yourself.

      And all you do is label me, Insane, Crazy, Lost in Space, Full of Demons, Full or Sickness, Full of dishonesty, full of insincerity. Ofcourse these are all demons and stupid diseases that need to be vaccinated by such as Yellow fever, Tetanus, Tuberculosis, Diptheria, Polio, Typhoid, Hepatitis A, Hepatitis B, Cholera, and Rabies.

      Is that all you have on offer ? The Jesus that is with you all ? The so called Emmanuel ? God with us ? Where is he then in my life ? It must be because of my insanity because somebody says it who is not even a health practitioner. Can you imagine ?

      Yes life is in the blood. For whatever it is. I really don’t care anymore because you all are such great examples to follow including this TB Joshua obessions. Thanks TB Joshua I owe it all to you when I was still normal before I met you. Thanks follwors of TB Joshua I owe all to you and your daily curses and evil words you speak. Congratiolations you have succeeded to make me insincere and dishonest. Oh my my.

      Thank God, there will be 1 billion Lucifers and Satans coming out of me. Hihihihihihihihi. Hilarious. Go on slapfest me on my head about it. Punch me on my chest about it.

      • @ All,

        And that all because of Joy Brown. The test tube baby. You all want to throw away my life because I am dishonest and insincere. And you are all in agreement about it. Why do I live for ? For Joy Brown to have a human spirit and a soul ? One is better OFF dead to my opinion.

    • @liesse,
      I agree with you, this jester called @Jesse can’t think at all. But he sure can type away a lot of nonsensical garbage and pretend to debate

  101. @General,

    “You need to understand from me that petri dish babies in my belief do not have a living soul.”


    “You need to understand from me that petri dish babies (your all word collected applied to IVF and AI) my meaning as intended (sperm+egg+scientist+fusion immediately)= in my belief they do not have a living soul nor a human spirit.”

    You can’t go around it because you all know this is true but can’t admit it.

    “…I stated that I believe that in putting “someone” in a petri dish (which to my opinion is a sin) because all things without faith is sin…..That someone coming out of there is no living soul.”


    “…I stated that I believe that in putting “someone” in a petri dish (your term word for it) my meaning creating manually sperm+egg+scientist+fusion immediately (which to my opinion is a sin) because all things without faith is sin…..That someone coming out of there is (has) no human spirit or no living soul.”

    Apparently you all don’t understand anything of what I write and translate for your own advantage it so you use it against me as me being insincere and dishonest as a label. All of you are confused by your own interpretation as you believe you think as in as written:

    2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

    That is exactly what you do when I say something, you interpret it what you think I am saying and copy and paste it and hold it against me that I am insincere and dishonest.

    1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

    The same applies to you all. So go on lift up your hand if you are without sin ? Why are you all dishonest about that and clearly insincere. Right there.

    1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

  102. @ Vooke, general, TBJW, liesse,

    You all must be test tube babies.
    You all must be Ceo of the test tube baby pre natal department.
    You all find a test tube baby more important that one that is conceived by the precepts of God’s commandments.
    You all are proven to divert a conversation to your own benefit and advance to draw in things that was not asked in the first place to set the scene of catching someone to be dishonest and insincere.
    You all against Catholicism but can’t say why.
    You all incapable of doing anything of what you say with the power of God.
    You all are a disgrace of setting up a blog for five years and can’t bring a nasty piece of work named TB Joshua that lives in a swamp and steals your money to glorify himself down to appear in Court.
    “Prove” with a couple of Scriptures that someone has a soul and spirit but can’t say when it enter a test tube baby and can’t even say where it sits or exists. Your blood analysis makes Jehovah Witness triumph over their stance do not do blood transfusion. Stop eating haggis and bloodwurst.

    And on top of that you call me dumb. And you all call yourself Christian, as well the deliverer of what ????? I am sure when I meet any of you I would love to put my military boots on with steel noses and boxing gloves with lead pieces in it and punch and kick you all relentlessly in your face of twisting my question.

    • @Jesse you are not dumb, you are a deranged moron for not only imagining that your stupidity would go unnoticed in such a serious blog, but also for wishing us harm for pointing it out.

      JESSE: ‘… I believe that in putting “someone” in a petri dish (your term word for it) my meaning creating manually sperm+egg+scientist+fusion immediately (which to my opinion is a sin) because all things without faith is sin…..That someone coming out of there is (has) no human spirit or no living soul…..’

      According to your idiotic theory, Joy Brown missed the ‘breath’ when she was fertilized in a petridish. Did God ‘breath’ his spirit thereby making her a living soul later or is she spiritless and therefore soulless?

      • @Vooke,

        A moron does not exist. They are nowhere. It’s a colloquialism of what people say when they find that their intellectual ability supersedes other in usurping what was said.

        You constantly bring in Joy Brown. Why do you do that ? Did I ask you to bring her in or was it you doing that. What are you, family, do you have yourself a test tube baby, or whatever you have done or been involved into because then you already have made up your mind and there is no amount of discussing possible with you.

        It’s not a theory. It’s right there. sperm+egg+scientist+fusion just done. There is NO WAY that there will be a human spirit or a living soul in that. NO WAY. And I will stand with that because if it does not make sense to you, I have discussed that with others online and they agree. So you might be right, you might be wrong. It really does not matter. What could have gone in amicable conversation about it you personally have destroyed that and for that I became infuriated and then you deserve what is coming to you form my side. And you have no right to get the blood under my nails away because you keep changing to Joy Brown. You should have left her out. If there was none of those people there you would not have been able to take it as proof whatsoever. Because you would not be able to say this in my face if I was standing in front of you.

        You are claiming that you need to have what the Bible is saying, but an Atheist would be laughing at you and a unbeliever too as well a Biologist. Because it is discussed over the years about it, but what is available online has all kinds of interpretations. This is an unknown area. You don’t know anything. Oh it sits here, or there, or whatever. There are millions of theories and stories about that. And since they all have a different thing to say. Might as well say, we actually don’t know. But it is clear if you take two parts of man and woman’s body and even if you fused it as they do. There is NO WAY that there is a human spirit or a living soul. It would have been debatable whether this comes in a later stage. And there you went off in your tangent and splattered my screen with DOES JOY BROWN HAVE A Whatever, whatever. You forced everything to your advantage and so did General and TB Joshua Watch. And where did it all go in the end ? You are laughing and you pissed me off and you loved it that you succeeded into that. It must be your speciality to do that. Perhaps you thrive on it and get a kick out of it. Don’t be surprised you get the wind in front then. Because you have no feeling how that comes over. Which could very likely put you in the category of being a psychopath.

      • @Vooke,

        This blog is serious ? Really ? Many times there are the most hilarious things ever. Especially those TB Joshua followers. Who can say nothing else than “TB Joshua is a man of gosh.” That is all they can say.

        With me you at least you get a discussion and something is going on. But your pointing OUT is not defining me as a person. Because there are billions who do not believe anything of what you are saying. They would be Bwahahahahaha, in like, What are you on about ? What are you talking about. And point out to you for example why perfectly smart people believe the most ridiculous things. Not that they don’t do that they do they same. They filter out things what they see fit for themselves and can make a skeptic magazine about it. So they can make money for themselves in arguing with the big wigs.

        You have said that I am dumb and supid and a moron on the ground that you cannot agree with me because you have chosen that your proposal is the better way. And on top of it you hide behind God as a defense in saying like General. Subdue to God now or otherwise. Now isn’t it that rich ? God Himself would have told me if He would have found it necessary. But until He has not. How about that you are on a theory yourself and tell me that you believe in your own theory because you have constructed a lot of so called “evidence” in there we got you now, repent of your heresies. They did that to the early church fathers too. This one was a herertic that one. But later they said they were right after all. Can they make their mind up ? And who are you ? Are you the Hermaneutic Exegesis Theologian here ? While profiling as a professional health practitioner in psychological mental illnesses ? Really ? Go on show yourself then we can go in debate face to face. The military boots with steel toes and boxing gloves with lead are still on the table, do you want to engage ? Coward ! Because that is what you are. You are lucky I have never went into the invitation to meet with anyone of you as was asked me in the past. Because I would now be knocking on your door. Believe me. If you want to say Moron in face that is.

      • @Jesse,
        You can fantasize all day how you would beat 100 men to pulp, what you can’t do is recall your idiocy here that Joy Brown has no soul nor spirit.

        Now that you have confirmed our worst fears that you are mentally unstable, we will handle you with kid gloves henceforth, look at you with more pity than SCOANITES

      • @Jesse,

        You can fantasize all day how you would beat 100 men to pulp, what you can’t do is recall your idiocy here that Joy Brown has no soul nor spirit.

        I am no fantasizing about that at all, people like you just draw blood under somebodies nails away with your relentless convictions that you are only right and then draw God into it and say capitulate to our convictions. As I said there are others that I put this forward to and they agree with me about what I say.

        What you call idiocy by your own standards of convictions others are clearly thinking also different than you and of course they are now all idiots according to you analogy. How silly is that ?

        Now that you have confirmed our worst fears that you are mentally unstable, we will handle you with kid gloves henceforth, look at you with more pity than SCOANITES

        I have never confirmed anything of being mentally unstable. I can do wordspiel too and make you think that I am mentally unstable you pretending you are a professional health care practitioner. Are you ?

        Kid gloves ? For what ? You clearly love word spiel don’t you. Sowing thoughts in another and then hope your divisive corrupt thoughts of IVF is not a sin and that is why Joy Brown must according to you have a human spirit and living soul must grow up in another person and then come to the conclusion by your own shortcomings of being a non professional health care practitioner and without any credentials of existing degrees into it. I can just now take your pathetic twisting and manipulating of the conversation here with a pinch of salt.

        Whatever you think is not the standard of anything. Everything is debatable. What is clear, you are a master manipulator of twisting a conversation with side tracking to another topic that was not asked in the first place. How mentally unstable is that.

        You are using an existing situation for putting weight in your debate to distort the balance but you could not have a foot to stand upon if it was not existing because everybody would be doing Ha ha ha ha ha about it. It still would not be valid anyways because there are other people who have agreed with me about this, so the jury is out there. And that is now what TB Joshua is exploiting. Setting up people against each other and then hide and manipulate others to do his bidding, while he can’t come forward about his own shortcomings and was at the center of 116 people who died needlessly because of his choices and that of others. Somebody needs to take accountability for that. But because of money and status they don’t really want to touch it with a barge pole. How sad. It only means that men of God can make all decisions unpunished and get away with bribing and manipulating others to their advance. He does everything to exhaust his possibilities into that and has succeeded into that, not because God is with him but because exhausting all loopholes available around him and people who want to defend him for that. What a debacle and disgrace for those that lost their lives because of such atrocities applied of building illegally and without building permit and God never commanded him to do allow to build something like that in the first place. He is making God to the murderer and him being innocent. Please think, think, think what that is like. It means that money answers all things even if you murder someone for it, you always can use it get away with the most worst atrocities. They did not let Bernie Madoff get away with scamming people for years. Why should they do that with him and the rest of SCOAN ? Instead you keep insisting incessantly rather who has a human spirit or/and a living soul.

    • @Jesse

      You are sounding more & more like some SCOANites…very hateful.

      Accusing this blog of failing to bring TBJ to court…? Really that’s incredibly stupid of you! You are just hitting new lows!

      In you I see a man whose pride won’t allow him to be corrected. God himself said the nephesh (soul/life) is in the blood but you trashed that, saying amoeba has no blood but it’s alive. You don’t even realize the magnitude of this.


      For me, if God said it then it is a FACT. I don’t have to prove anything to you! God Himself said it, therefore it is settled!
      If you disagree with this, you’re are not disagreeing with us but with God. You know God…The One who actually made all this stuff!!
      Really Jesse if you don’t see the stupidity in disagreeing with what God said…then really you are a super stupid fellow! All because your ego doesn’t allow you to be wrong, you must always be right & always have the last say.

      • @ General,

        What pride are you on about ? If you would have brought it in a different way then it would not have been like this. You use the sledghammer as in my way or no way. And also you all were deliberately going off to another area that had nothing to do with my question. God says a lot of things in the Bible, but do you follow it all up ? If you had to do what the Law in Leviticus is prescribing you would be out there now killing innocent people because He said that. How would you go about with that ? That would be really irresponsible and wrong…

        Then you would also agree that when a girl is raped for example it would be enough if you paid 50 shekel for the deed you did to her father. Is that right ? No it is not. You just cannot do that today can you now ? And there are plenty more.

        You can’t just pick out one thing and do not do another. Then do all of it. And personally there would have been no problem to accept the life is in the blood. But it was not relevant at the question that was put forward. But you came with it anyways. So did all of you. You kept throwing oil on the fire and kept fanning it to annoy me by deliberately go off elsewhere. You all were on an agenda that needed to be worked off on you all terms. Which resulted in control freaks. Control your own family or somebody else but not me. Because that is a spirit of Jezebel. Controlling others. Manipulating another person to subdue them. Go manipulate your family or so but now me.

      • @Jesse
        In this lifetime, for every human being alive, the nephesh (soul/life) will always be in the blood. It was like this in Genesis 9:4-5, long before the Law in Leviticus. So it certainly won’t change because the Levitical Law concerning rape has changed.

        So while this earth remains, for every child conceived whether in the uterus or in the petri dish, their nephesh (soul/life) will always be in their blood. This is what God said concerning the nephesh (soul/life). Like I said, God said it, so it is settled.

        You can try to maneuver out of this one as you do by claiming this is “not relevant to the question you put forward”, but we all know that this is exactly what is at the heart of this topic.

      • @General,

        In this lifetime, for every human being alive, the nephesh (soul/life) will always be in the blood. It was like this in Genesis 9:4-5, long before the Law in Leviticus. So it certainly won’t change because the Levitical Law concerning rape has changed.

        The Levitical Law concerning rape has changed ? How ? With what ?

        “So while this earth remains, for every child conceived whether in the uterus or in the petri dish, their nephesh (soul/life) will always be in their blood. This is what God said concerning the nephesh (soul/life). Like I said, God said it, so it is settled.”

        I still would like to discuss this with God in the context of using IVF and I am sure He would tell me, steer clear of that. It never told them to do such to tamper with my Creation the Human Being as it was then.

        General, there is no blood in a fusion between sperm+egg+scientist+fusion = blood ???? A sperm does not have any blood, nor does the egg have any blood. Only the scientist has blood. Nor the fusion uses any blood. So where is the life ? Where is the blood ? So where can then be the human spirit and become a living soul if there is any ? Why can’t you admit there is no blood there and therefor there is no human spirit and becoming a living soul outside a womb. You claim there is, I claim there is not. And I believe that I am right on that because you could in no way prove there is blood involved in such fusion. Hence my conclusion, there is no human spirit or/and a living soul right there.

        When Vooke put up the cycle of human life, the earliest existence of blood is on Day 6. You could “argue” then that then the human spirit descends in a body and become a living soul. But you have no prove of that either because to me it is outside of God’s commands of doing such a thing. Mimicking things is not the real thing. Counterfeit is not the real thing. IVF is mimicking the things that God said to procreate.

        If there is no restrained on that, then the lid of all this is lost and then all things can be done because of advance in Science. Where is then the ethical standards of just having no regard for human life in the first place because of tampering will give down the line at some point horrible problems somewhere. Scientists want to argue this away because they just want to have job in keep tampering with things that were perfect in the first place. It is the sin that causes all the troubles we see today. Why add to it by doing it on purpose and deliberately.

        I have said before, when you start tampering, you will find that there is no end to it. And since there is still the choice of Good and Evil. There will be Evil people who then eventually get away with even more heinous crimes than ever before in history. Why do this ? Leave it alone. Improve life on other levels than that. Focus upon make your environment clean, easier to live in, make something that truly restores and replenishes the Earth and it’s people in it. Beautify things in it. Make it for people to live in it worthwhile instead of making people unhappy what they have and want more because they can tamper with human life and children as such. We are already corrupt enough to that effect.

        “You can try to maneuver out of this one as you do by claiming this is “not relevant to the question you put forward”, but we all know that this is exactly what is at the heart of this topic.”

        No we all know is not applicable here, because I have put this forward to other people outside TB Joshua Watch and they agree with me about it. So WE ALL know is not applicable here. Because you do not speak for everybody and certainly not for me as well. I am not a herd individual. And I do not like sitting upon a fence and throwing out my chew toys on both sides of my dialogue as you all have tried to do and then coercing another person to agree about your convictions or beliefs.

  103. Jesse, you were conceived in a uterus so God breathed into you( zygote) but He NEVER breathed into Joy Brown and other 5M+ petridish babies.

    So, if you put on your ‘….military boots on with steel noses and boxing gloves with lead pieces in it and punch and kick…’ Joy Brown in the face till she dies, would you be guilty of murder?

    She has no spirit nor is she a living soul

    • @ Vooke,

      You are getting irrational now and unreasonable. Don’t hide yourself behind Joy Brown. Why can’t you leave her out of this and the 5 million people. I have told you before. You keep doing it. Leave her out of this discussion. Basta. You are a manipulator and diverting to those things in where you want me to speak out on that. Why involve a third person just because you can or have to because you see your advantage in this discussion and want to be the winner of it all. If she never existed or even the 5 million, would you also bring her hypothetically forward as proof ? It is you that should be treated like that because you do this for a living perhaps. Annoying another on purpose so you can divert to another area that was not relevant. Again. Sperm+egg+scientist+fusion = done immediately 1 minute, 1 hour I state there is no human spirit or a living soul there since you all find that there must be blood to have life and have a human spirit to become a living soul. Forget about Joy Brown or whoever. They are not invited in this statement.

      And if you have seared your own consciousness with a hot iron about IVF and AI, then don’t draw me into your convictions about it to agree that it is no sin.

      And I would not punch Joy Brown because you are not Joy Brown. Leave her out of this. You keep doing it. It would be the same me bringing in Warren Buffett or Mark Zuckerberg to the table who likely are proponents of IVF and AI. It had nothing to do between you and me. Annoying person. Maybe you mother dropped you on your head when you were small and now you have to take it out on those that tell you something that you don’t like. What else can it be. Because you are so incessant and annoying and I am sure you feel your ego expanding now while we are at it.

      • @Jesse,
        Don’t be obtuse
        How do you divorce petridish babies from your claims?
        Once again, the spiritless and soulless zygote in a petridish DEVELOPS into a human, into Joy Brown. You were formed when your father’s sperm and mother’s ovum fused to form a zygote inside her uterus before developing into

        Jesse thinks he has a spirit and a living soul but Joy Brown lacks both of these.

        Can Jesse prove that he has a spirit and a living soul and that Joy Brown lacks BOTH of these?

      • @Vooke,

        “Jesse thinks he has a spirit and a living soul but Joy Brown lacks both of these.”

        You are coercing an answer in somebodies writing or giving a direction to what was not asked in the first place. And yes I can remove her from the equation because you are talking about the end result. And there is a possibility that there are exceptions on the rule that you took as the Bible completely infallible. Even though I would like to believe the Bible is infallible. I refuse to be brought to action if I had to kill somebody because God commanded that for me in His Word because of some rules He has set. When we look at ISIS and Islam, you will see they will do that because they believe that their Quran is the direct word from Allah.

        And example is:

        Surah 9:5

        And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

        Which means Woo unto you if you are not a Muslim, because the intrinsic message here is that we should not believe or be any other religion than Islam.

        And this is be disputed by the kinds like you all who are now arguing about of if somebody has a human spirit and a living soul because they are a test tube baby.

        Instead you were saying it is a sin to practice such things so that such discussion should not have to take place as we do now. You insist incessantly that you find that I must confess to you or anyone if they have a human spirit or a soul. After all it is the Bible that claims it but not in that setting as doing IVF or AI. God did not command any of the Scientists go do this. God commanded to do His Will about what is good for us. Seeing the implications of IVF and AI. It’s not really worth it to go through this kind of torture even if you have a result of having a human baby. Some people say, Oh I am willing to sacrifice everything for having a baby. And they are willing even their own salvation at stake by doing multiple sins. Think that now for yourself.

        Your opinion is that I can’t separate Joy Brown from what I put forward. That’s your opinion and you both are entitled to it. It does not mean I have or must answer it if I am of opinion that had nothing to do with what I said in the first place. That I said some things in some format had only given you a the green light to add to our conversation in where you think you have “proven” something by God’s Word but not in practice. Because there is no way you could extract the human spirit or living soul and say here it is, it’s true of what we were saying. Can you now ? If you want to make your Bible text work, you need to show your evidence practically with those things visible to the naked eye.

      • @Jesse,
        You should thank God you ran into me because nobody runs into me and remains dumb; they all leave educated.

        If IVF and AI zygotes(fused cells) have no spirit nor soul, how come they develop into humans?

        Either human development is a process independent of spirit and soul, or they do have a spirit/soul. Another alternative is,even if they lack a spirit/soul at the point of fusion, God breaths the spirit into the zygote shortly thereafter.

        If humans don’t need a spirit nor a living soul to develop into a human, then God breathing into Adam was waste of time and energy.

        If the zygote has a soul and spirit, you Jesse are not only wrong but a moron for not seeing it.

        If the zygote has no spirit nor soul but receives one at some point that fires its development into a human, then God is indifferent to IVF and AI contrary to your deranged claims that He is against these.

        Tough options for you sir

      • @Jesse,
        You should thank God you ran into me because nobody runs into me and remains dumb; they all leave educated.

        Yeah, of course Oh thou great Teacher of the Zygotes, IVF and AI, we are all stupid in your book of hot air inflation beliefs and your are the only advanced Ubermensch in this world with self inflicted knowledge that came from third parties, text books, other writers but not of yourself and your own experience of it. If you have, then you should ask yourself why did you chose to sin the Presence of God to be a Eye Poker and tell Him that you know better than His Commandments.

        If IVF and AI zygotes(fused cells) have no spirit nor soul, how come they develop into humans?

        The same way animals, reptiles, amphibians, fish will develop to an adult species. All of you are still denying that this kind of (flesh) could not have a soul. But according to this it has:

        “For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity. All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust. Who knows that the breath [spirit] of man ascends upward and the breath [spirit] of the beast descends downward to the earth?” Ecclesiastes 3:19-21

        Will you comply as well General, TBJW ?

        “Either human development is a process independent of spirit and soul, or they do have a spirit/soul. Another alternative is,even if they lack a spirit/soul at the point of fusion, God breaths the spirit into the zygote shortly thereafter.”

        I have not thought about that, but that is a “possibility” that came across while we were arguing about it. I would have thought that it would not. But you say and General and TBJW, I am wrong into that regarding those Scriptures and that according to you has the last word. I just want to challenge that and there is nothing wrong with it to do so. But so far, we should agree this is only as is written in the Word of God when it is done with intercourse as it is commanded by God since Genesis. I don’t see any other commandments from God that it has to be donoe otherwise. Commandments are for to be done, not to go around it with other possibilities because as the Law is for to keep you in the right path to protect ourselves, so must we do what God commands.

        “If humans don’t need a spirit nor a living soul to develop into a human, then God breathing into Adam was waste of time and energy.”

        No, it has nothing to do with waste of energy. It was written and that is what is said, so we derive from there what could have happened. But if you talk to an unbeliever about this and an atheist then they will go Hahahahahaha. Sand, God, Breath, A Living Soul. How do you do something like that. Then you have to come with evidence that that is so. Because they will look at you that you are talking nice stories to sit at the open fire roasting marsh mellows on a stick.

        “If the zygote has a soul and spirit, you Jesse are not only wrong but a moron for not seeing it.”

        Here you go again. I am not 8-12 years old, Ok. What you think is on the level of Professor Sultan Ul Ulloom, I challenge you to make it practical, not by some story you only come to me about that.

        “If the zygote has no spirit nor soul but receives one at some point that fires its development into a human, then God is indifferent to IVF and AI contrary to your deranged claims that He is against these.2

        The zygote of a normal baby with out IVF application and born through the deed of intercourse there is no problem for me to accept that. I hope you were not thinking that I was challenging that ?

        Tough options for you sir

        Not at all, see my answers. You need to apply it with the right application of force, not with a sledgehammer mentality in which your are very good into to do that. It might be that you think whatever another person thinks, my conviction is more superior in application so you must accept it no matter what. In that you are unreasonable and adopt the Sledgehammer mentality only to try to make of everything a Strawman of your own convictions.

      • @ Vooke, General, TBJW,

        In Ontology, Man and Animal are not much different:

        You can look at it from all different angles for my part 360 degrees but you cannot deny that:

        Animals have the SAME feelings of anger, love, fear, affection, aggression, stubbornness, independence, freewill, etc. These are soulish behaviours.
        Animals have recognizable personality just like man. You will see that every dog for examplke is different in character and behaviour. If they only had a human spirit then they would behave all the same.

        The Memory in man and women, children does not reside in the physical brain but his or her spirit.

        Remember that the rich man and Lazarus were dead and their brains were dust <~~~, yet notice all the things they remembered and knew in addition to retaining their personalities and identity:

        “Now the poor man died and was carried away by the Angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. “In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. “And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ “But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. ‘And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.’ “And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father’s house for I have five brothers in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’” Luke 16:22–28

  104. @ Vooke,

    Ofcourse you will come forward in being really extra annoying with a person that a Moron does exist.

    These things are used as in so called psychology right ? Saying that somebody is just of mental age of 8-12. Woohooo. You must be the great i am then since you are so grown up in all your doing. If you were, you would not even be here. You would be out there changing the world in screaming Geronimo !!!! But here you are. Bickering with me. Trying to usurp me in any way you can do as being past off more intelligent. Maybe you are, but likely you are not. You are in word spiel, playing around and you get a kick out of it that you can throw out your chew toy out of your own pram and just enjoy it that a person like me throws it back at you. You should see yourself gloating now and rubbing your hands with glee of a lopsided your are yourself when you put a camera on you and a mic shoved in your face. What will you be saying ? Would I see a dyslexic ? A stutterer ? Or a arrogant inflated big bag of air who suffers from a superiority complex in their own head ? You choose who you want to be.

    • @Jesse,
      I’m much younger than you btw, but I don’t trash God’s gift of brains, I over use it so seldom will you hear me subscribing to incoherent babble. Start thinking.

      Once again,

    • @ Vooke,

      A simple question to you ?


      I could never go online if and do what I do if I had no brain.

      What you pass off as incoherent babble can mean for others sense. Again, I have put this question before others and they have no problem to answer me in it and agree with me about it.

      You the contrary just want to graft in something else that had nothing to do with my proposal and you kept embroidering on it as you wanted it to see. By all means see it as you like. It’s like having a discussion over tomatoes and decide if they are a fruit or a vegetable.

      Scientifically speaking, a tomato is definitely a fruit. True fruits are developed from the ovary in the base of the flower, and contain the seeds of the plant (though cultivated forms may be seedless). Blueberries, raspberries, and oranges are true fruits, and so are many kinds of nut.

      But that was not my question. You want to graft Joy Brown on declaration in coercing me of your interest or whatever you have into Joy Brown as such. No matter for example if you would dissect Joy Brown, there would still be no concrete evidence if she had a human spirit or a soul as you and me, but I still have another secret that I won’t mention here that can make your and General’s Scripture not be able to work at all.

      You and General are of opinion that when you put the Scripture forward as you did, it is proving that there is a human spirit and a soul in it. Are you telling me that just blood = life = human spirit and a living soul ? A biologist would say, what are you on about and they would explain that taking blood in a sack in the hospital is carrying somebodies human spirit and the living soul to another person if they would give you a blood transfusion. Because that is what I am reading from your and General’s debate because that would be the logical conclusion in that. Think about about it. Because there are endless possibilities in that.

      • Jesse your brain is largely disused and has been for the longest. Having a brain and using it are different things

      • @ Vooke,

        I can see how you use your brain. To manipulate, twist a question to your advantage while you don’t answer the question.

        Does a sperm+egg+scientist+fusion = does it have a human spirit and a living soul after the fusion is done 1 minute or 1 hour ?

        Do you accept that it is just a fusion with nothing going on yet than than it has been fused ? You tell me where God came in and put the human spirit and living soul in it.

        Tell me the precise second, minute, hour ? And if you can’t put it practically to me where that happens, better leave it at that and drop your own question.

    • @ Vooke,

      If the blood is the condition of the Bible of a human spirit and a living soul when does the heart and bloodstream manifest or is formed in a baby ?

      Maybe you should look at Joy Browns eyes to see IF she has become a living soul and has one.

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